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Dispensationalism and Racism

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Bubba

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Dispensationalism and Racism


by Thomas Williamson
What would you think of a religious sect that taught that there is one race that is by nature superior, and another race that is by nature inferior?

And suppose that this sect taught that the superior race has a divine right to dispossess members of the inferior race and take their properties without compensation, and to ethnically cleanse those who resist this expropriation, using violence if necessary?

And suppose that this sect believed so strongly in this system of racism and ethnic cleansing that it was willing to plunge the world into war in order to fulfill its objectives.

And suppose that this sect claimed 70,000,000 adherents in the world's most powerful nation, and had a stranglehold on the foreign policy of that nation, so that the military and financial might of that nation was directed toward the goal of helping the superior race and suppressing the inferior race?

Welcome to the wonderful world of American dispensationalism. Dispensationalists, who are found in many fundamentalist and evangelical denominations, follow the theological beliefs of John Nelson Darby, C. I. Scofield and Hal Lindsey, who taught that ethnic Jews constitute a superior race who are destined to take over Palestine, then the entire Middle East and finally the world. This naturally leads to a resentment of Palestinian Arabs, and all other Middle Eastern nations that sympathize with the Palestinians in their resistance to the program of pushing them out of their historic homelands. Dispensationalism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to racism.

It should be emphasized that not all American fundamentalists and evangelicals are dispensationalists. Not all dispensationalists are Zionist who support the Israeli takeover of the Middle East, although it would be difficult to find prominent dispensationalist spokesman who would publicly disassociate themselves from Zionism. A few dispensationalists display personal animosity and hatred toward members of Middle Eastern ethnic groups they dislike, while most attempt to maintain cordial relations with individuals from such groups.

Having made these disclaimers, it must be admitted that the modern dispensational movement produces a lot of rhetoric and propaganda against the Arab peoples that can only be described as racist.

For instance, an article on the web site of Cutting Edge Ministries of Attleboro, Massachusetts, in an article entitled "White Hot Genocidal Arab Hatred of Israel and All Jews is Setting the Stage for End of the Age Fulfillment of Prophecy," contains this white hot denunciation of the Arabs: "As Arabs armies advanced toward the heart of Europe, they wantonly killed, raped, and pillaged entire villages and cities. This is the true Arab, and please do not ever forget it."

In October, 2000, Evangelist Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham who has built a reputation for fighting racism, stunned observers with this attack on the Arabs, made during a "Festival" in Lexington, Kentucky: "The Arabs will not be happy until every Jew is dead. They hate the state of Israel. They all hate the Jews. God gave that land to the Jews. The Arabs will never accept that. Why can't they live in peace?" Dispensationalist followers of the Grahams apparently were undisturbed by this declaration that all Arabs are evil and that they have no civil or property rights in the land of their birth.

In his Last Call newsletter, Pastor F. M. Riley of Roswell, New Mexico denounces the Palestinians as "lazy" and accuse them of stealing Palestine from the Jews, saying, "The Palestinians (and other Arabs) have never been anything but 'squatters' on land that never belonged to them in the first place."

Even dispensationalists who do not indulge in overt racist condemnations of the Arabs often follow the assumption that the Palestinians are meant to be subservient to the recent Jewish colonists and settlers who have taken over their country, and that Palestinians are not entitled to the same basic human rights as all other peoples and ethnic groups are. This is an inherently racist ideology.

Another common teaching among dispensationalists is that the Palestinians Arabs are Edomites, or the "House of Esau," and that it is God's will that all the Old Testament curses and judgments on the ancient Edomites are meant to fall upon the modern Palestinians.

However, in reality there is no connection between the Edomites and the Palestinians Josephus, in his "Antiquities of the Jews," Chapter IX, (2), stated that the entire Edomite or Idumean nation was absorbed into the Jewish nation in the 2nd Century BC, and this statement is accepted by modern historians and Bible reference works. Thus, much anti-Arab prejudice is based on a totally false application of Old Testament prophecies against ancient Edom (similar to the misapplication which places the "curse of Ham" upon modern blacks).

Meanwhile, although Iran is a non-Arab country, the current government of Iran has sided with the Palestinians. As a result, some dispensationalists regard the existence of Iran and the Iranian people as a threat to their theological belief that Israel must take over the Middle East and therefore Iran must be bashed also, as was done by Jimmy DeYoung in an article in the October/November 1998 issue of the Zionist magazine "Israel My Glory," in which he states, contrary to all Biblical and historical evidence, that "Persia, that ancient biblical enemy of the Jewish people, is the modern state of Iran. The hatred the Persians had for the Jewish people has carried over to the Iran of today."

So, many modern dispensationalists are displeased with the Arabs and the Iranians, for supposedly hindering the divine plan for Jewish hegemony in the Middle East. But it turns out that many of these dispensationalists are equally irritated with the Jews and will even vocally condemn Jews, for their alleged sin of choosing to live in America and other Western countries, instead of moving to Israel where they supposedly belong according to dispensational ideology.

Here we have a paradox - Gentiles are allowed to live in America or anywhere else they wish (unless you are a Palestinian desiring to live in Palestine, which is forbidden). But Jews, who are supposedly the master, superior race, are not allowed to choose where they can live like everyone else - they must live in Israel, the new ghetto set aside for them, or suffer the divine displeasure. Some have even suggested that the Holocaust during World War 2 was God's punishment upon the Jews for not relocating to Israel, and part of God's plan to force them to go there anyway.

Dwight Wilson in his book "Armageddon Now" has extensively documented anti-Semitic attitudes on the part of some dispensationalists in the early 20th Century, as well as their distribution of the anti-Semitic forgery "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Regarding dispensationalists of the 1930's and their attitude to German persecution of the Jews, Wilson says, "In spite of being theologically more pro-Jewish than any other Christian group, the premillennarians also were apathetic - because of a residual anti-Semitism, because persecution was prophetically expected, because it would encourage immigration to Palestine, because it seemed the beginning of the Great Tribulation and because it was a wonderful sign of the imminent blessed hope." Since that time evangelical concern for the welfare of Jews, as well as Arabs, has often played second fiddle to their desire for their peculiar prophetic schemes to be fulfilled, regardless of the cost in human misery.

Meanwhile, entire sermons have been preached and books have been written on the subject of the greedy Jew who stays in America so he can make money, instead of going to Israel where he belongs. The 1987 book "Let My People Go - The Struggle of the Jewish People to Return to Israel" by Tom Hess has on its front cover a Jewish man who is unable to go to Israel, because he is chained to a pole marked "Wall Street," thus perpetuating the offensive stereotypes of the rapacious Jew who will do anything for money.

Although there has never been a society more hospitable to the Jews than America, this book attempts to scare Jews into fleeing to Israel, saying that millions of American Jews will soon be butchered by the KKK, Islamic terrorists or the KGB unless they hightail it for the Holy Land now. In a chapter entitled "American Jews" - Bound by Materialism," Hess accuses American Jews of being enslaved by the god of mammon, and tells them, "It's time to stop saying, 'I'm an American Jew,' stop bowing down and worshipping the god of materialism in America and fulfill your end-time biblical destiny. Return to the land of your forefather..."

If someone demanded that Americans of African, Mexican or Chinese ancestry stop identifying themselves as Americans and get out of the country, and go back where their ancestors came from, this would quickly be identified and condemned as reprehensible racism. If we do thus to American Jews, it is clearly racism also.

In discussing the latent racism against Jews, Arabs and other Middle Eastern peoples, on the part of dispensationalist who are frustrated of all these peoples to do exactly what they think is necessary to fulfill by the failure the "Armageddon theology" end-times fantasies that have been predicted by their favorite prophecy preachers, it must be emphasized that I am not accusing all dispensationalists of being racists or holding to racist views. This article describes the attitudes of some dispensationalists, not all of them. No doubt there are many sincere dispensationalists who would publicly repudiate such views, if given the opportunity.

Therefore, I hereby invite all American dispensationalists to publicly subscribe to and declare their agreement with the following 2-point manifesto against racism:

1. We affirm that all Americans Jews are to be embraced and welcomed as American citizens at all times, and encouraged to stay in America if they wish, to enjoy the benefits that this society has provided for the Jewish people. At no time will we give the impression that American Jews do not belong here or that they belong in Israel.

2. We affirm that the Palestinian people are endowed with the same human, civil and property rights as all other peoples of the world, including the right to reside in their homeland, to travel freely, to govern themselves free of foreign military occupation, and to return to their homeland in the event that they have been exiled. Whatever privileges we may regard the Jews as having been divinely in this dispensation, those privileges do not include the right to oppress the Palestinians in any way or to expropriate their property without compensation.

This is a platform that all of us, dispensationalists and non-dispensationalists, can agree on. It is a scriptural platform, because the Bible teaches that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Romans 10:12), that God has put no difference between Jews and Gentiles (Acts 15:9), that God has made of one blood all the peoples of the earth (Acts 17:26), and that in Christ there is Jew or Greek (Galatians 3:28). The Apostle Paul taught that there is no advantage in being a Jew, Galatians 5:6, 6:15, Philippians 3:3-9.

Any theological teaching that gives Jews a place of privilege over Palestinians or Gentiles in general, or that places any added burdens and restrictions upon the Jews because of their ethnicity, is a relic of an unenlightened past, should be erased from our thinking or preaching.

Mr. Thomas Williamson is an ordained Baptist minister who lives in Chicago, Illinois. He contributes to Media Monitors Network (MMN) from time to time
 
Bubba said:
And suppose that this sect taught that the superior race has a divine right to dispossess members of the inferior race and take their properties without compensation, and to ethnically cleanse those who resist this expropriation, using violence if necessary?

I would not believe in that sect that believes one race is superior over others. However, I would believe in a chosen race that had a responsibility to do God's will and to glorify Him and by His command displaced people from the land that were idolaters. And in turn, I would believe in a chosen race that was warned that the same would happen to them if they disobeyed the Lord their God. And finally I would believe in such a race that was clearly told that it was not for their sakes that they were chosen, but because of God's purpose. This race was and is Israel.

I don't take the racist allegations seriously. That's just more "politically correct" jargon much like "zero tolerance" and "homophobia" that some sects like to throw at the general populace to stir up with emotions instead of reasoning with logic.
 
Tim,
I have been to the Middle East and have heard first hand the plight of the Palestinian and Lebanese Christians and it is a travesty how the West and specifically Dispensational thought has neglected fellow brothers in Christ over a false theology and eschatology.
Bubba
 
The 215th General Assembly (2003) of PCUSA wrote:

We are called by Scripture to love God and all our neighbors. Christian Zionism promotes a theology that justifies grievous violations of basic rights of people who are also made in the image of God and is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Its teachings invite contempt for fellow Christians in the Middle East, and foreclose decent human relations with many Evangelical Christians in our own American society and in our churches. The implications of this issue need to be understood and to be given much broader attention by our denomination.

The term, “Christian Zionism,†is used to refer to the use of passages of biblical prophecy out of context to influence political and religious leaders to accept the State of Israel as a necessary condition of the return of Jesus Christ and the eschatological end of time (Armageddon), when Jews and others will be given the option to either convert or perish.

Christian Zionism fails to relate to or defend Palestinian Christians who are fleeing their homeland because of Israeli occupation, economic closures, continuing confiscation of land and settlement construction, military aggression and now the “Wall.†Christian Zionism is actually anti-evangelical in that it undermines the presence and witness of the indigenous Middle East Christians, whether in the Holy Land itself or throughout the Middle East. Christian Zionism creates a false image of Christianity, one that is militant, western, and Zionist; and the repercussions often affect the continuity of indigenous Middle East Christians. Our Palestinian Christian partners urge us to speak out on this issue, notably the churches of the Middle East, the Middle East Council of Churches, the Sabeel Ecumenical Center, and others, as well as our good friends, the leaders of these bodies: the Reverend Naim Ateek of the Sabeel Center in Jerusalem, the Reverend Riad Jarjour, general secretary of the Middle East Council of Churches, and the Reverend Mitri Raheb, pastor of Christmas Lutheran Church in Bethlehem, who last year served as a mission partner in residence on the Worldwide Ministries Division staff of the PC(USA).

Christian Zionism has become a divisive voice in American churches that turn prophetic texts of the Bible into apocalyptic scenarios for the end times in a predictive and reductionist form of prophecy. The Christian Zionist message jams the airwaves every day on Christian radio and television and follows a theological approach to the Bible called “premillennial dispensationalism,†a theme that emerged in the early 1800s and was promoted in the U.S. by the Reverend John Nelson Darby. The 1995 novel Left Behind by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, and the subsequent series of novels that pick up on this view and focus on events leading to the end of history and the return of Jesus, found a profitable market among millions of North America readers, thereby finding popular but largely uninformed support. Influential members of the current U.S. government endorse Christian Zionist positions as a basis for U. S. foreign policy. Christian Zionists, aligned with the minority Jewish settler group, take positions on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that are contrary to the position of the Israeli government and of most Israelis, opposing a two-state solution and supporting transfer of all Arabs out of Palestine. Finally, pre-millennialist interpretations that underlie Christian Zionism ultimately exclude any validity of the continuity of efficacy of God’s covenant with the Jewish people themselves, and ultimately are anti-Semitic.

Jesus rejected efforts to speculate on the future by saying it was not for them to know the “times or the seasons†that God has chosen (Acts 1:6-11).

Christian Zionism is contrary to the Reformed principles of interpreting Scripture that call us to read Scripture in light of the gospel; and to interpret Scripture in light of the one commandment of God that summarizes all other commandments, love for God and for all our neighbors.

Our denomination is part of a coalition of Christian organizations called Churches for Middle East Peace. Its “Theological Reflection #1†describes the effect of the Zionist claim as the active dispossession of Palestinians of their land. Adding our voice to this specific issue will strengthen our joint efforts.
 
Once while I was at the Sea of Galilee, I talked with a Jewish man who considered himself a humanist and he worked as a tour guide. He told me that the Orthodox Jews treats the rest of the secular Jews as if they were their ass (beast of burden) and that the average Christian tourist treated the average Jew as their ass (beast of burden). He said both groups were not concerned about the well-being of Israel as a whole, but each had their own religious objective. I learned that the Orthodox Jew and his family (which tend to be large) live off assistance from the government, thus the non-orthodox Jew pays for their existence. He wanted to know if I was one those Christians that use the Jews to usher in the rebuilding of the Temple, the end of the world and the Second Coming of Jesus, I told him I was not. He then was very curious on what I believed as a Christian, after a considerable amount of time of explaining what I believe about Jesus and Scripture, we parted as friends.
Bubba
 
Bubba said:
Tim,
I have been to the Middle East and have heard first hand the plight of the Palestinian and Lebanese Christians and it is a travesty how the West and specifically Dispensational thought has neglected fellow brothers in Christ over a false theology and eschatology.

That's not racism as you quoted in the start of the thread. Dispensationalists treat some people this way for the same reason non-dispensationalists do: ignorance and laziness, nothing to do with the theology at all. You are trying to disprove a theology based on emotionalism (i.e. if this is the result, it cannot be true) when in fact probably many of the people that take the Dispensational position probably do not know what it all means or do not practice what they preach.
 
tim_from_pa said:
That's not racism as you quoted in the start of the thread. Dispensationalists treat some people this way for the same reason non-dispensationalists do: ignorance and laziness, nothing to do with the theology at all. You are trying to disprove a theology based on emotionalism (i.e. if this is the result, it cannot be true) when in fact probably many of the people that take the Dispensational position probably do not know what it all means or do not practice what they preach.

Tim, did you read the articles? When ever we excuse a race of people for civil rights violation of another people different then themselves, it is called racism. Why don't you do a little research on Zionism during the 1950's. Then write back and tell me what happened to the Palestinian people, some of which were believers. Then, if you choose, try and justify murder, rape and pillaging by the Jewish militia.
Bubba
 
reply

The Palestinians have no right to the land that God gave to the Jews whatsoever. Suggest you study the OT to see the promise God gave to Abraham and the plight of the Jews. Be careful not to curse God's chosen people. I don't know what your end-times thelogy is, but to me one must use scripture to find out the correct interpretations and right thelogy. and that is why I am a dispensationist. Otherwise, it is full of holes and not sound doctrine.



May God bless, Golfjack
 
Bubba said:
Tim, did you read the articles? When ever we excuse a race of people for civil rights violation of another people different then themselves, it is called racism. Why don't you do a little research on Zionism during the 1950's. Then write back and tell me what happened to the Palestinian people, some of which were believers. Then, if you choose, try and justify murder, rape and pillaging by the Jewish militia.
Bubba

Like I said, you're using emotionalism and getting too emotional about the whole thing. A Dispensationalist also claims to believe in Jesus, and their teachings do not endorse this. In this case, blame the messenger, not the message. Weak arguments you have indeed.
 
tim_from_pa said:
Like I said, you're using emotionalism and getting too emotional about the whole thing. A Dispensationalist also claims to believe in Jesus, and their teachings do not endorse this. In this case, blame the messenger, not the message. Weak arguments you have indeed.

Tim,
I am sure the average Dispensationalist really hasn't thought out the implications of their theology,yet your Dispensationalist that is vocal in the pulpit and loves to speculate in novels as well as nonfiction books, really does believe that we must support Israel no matter what and at all cost. You know as well as I, the reason, because it fits their theology. Which is quite alarming considering the resources the west has compared to the rest of Christendom, who by the way are a majority (those outside of USA) and who do not believe in Dispensationalism.
Emotionalism? May be?, but when is the last time you talked to a Palestinian or any Middle eastern believer and got their opinion about the policies of Israel, who is a country which is 80 % (or more) cultural Jews and not religious in any form.
Bubba
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
The Palestinians have no right to the land that God gave to the Jews whatsoever. Suggest you study the OT to see the promise God gave to Abraham and the plight of the Jews. Be careful not to curse God's chosen people. I don't know what your end-times thelogy is, but to me one must use scripture to find out the correct interpretations and right thelogy. and that is why I am a dispensationist. Otherwise, it is full of holes and not sound doctrine.



May God bless, Golfjack
Golfjack,
If you are sincere about believing that Dispensationalism is sound doctrine, please take a look at the article I posted under The Second Coming of Christ (Purpose of the rapture theory..) by Bill Barnwell. Then justify your position that the Dispensationist adhere to on the secret rapture, and then ask yourself, whose eschatology really is full of holes and not sound.
Bubba
 
Bubba said:
Tim,
I am sure the average Dispensationalist really hasn't thought out the implications of their theology,yet your Dispensationalist that is vocal in the pulpit and loves to speculate in novels as well as nonfiction books, really does believe that we must support Israel no matter what and at all cost. You know as well as I, the reason, because it fits their theology. Which is quite alarming considering the resources the west has compared to the rest of Christendom, who by the way are a majority (those outside of USA) and who do not believe in Dispensationalism.
Emotionalism? May be?, but when is the last time you talked to a Palestinian or any Middle eastern believer and got their opinion about the policies of Israel, who is a country which is 80 % (or more) cultural Jews and not religious in any form.
Bubba

Well, I don't like the Middle Eastern shenanigans any more than you do. But it has nothing to do with Dispensationalism. If they all flew away tomorrow into outer space, the violence would still be there. Trust me. Look on CNN now with the Lebanese and Al Qaeda.

I lived long enough to see that those who would blame Israel on such things are racist themselves, but in the inverse sense when their ulterior motive is support for the Palestinians instead. If I had to make a choice, not that I do not believe all people are created equal mind you, but I choose Israel to occupy the land when the Lord God Himself said,

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

And don't tell me that for ever does not mean for ever by some sort of theological dance around that. The Abrahamic Covenant is very much in effect today because that is the seedbed of the New Covenant and the provisions in the Abrahamic Covenant requires the people of Israel to be light-bearers for the New Covenant. That's the whole purpose of the bible.
 
tim_from_pa said:
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

And don't tell me that for ever does not mean for ever by some sort of theological dance around that. The Abrahamic Covenant is very much in effect today because that is the seedbed of the New Covenant and the provisions in the Abrahamic Covenant requires the people of Israel to be light-bearers for the New Covenant. That's the whole purpose of the bible.

Tim, I can't tell you anything, but may be God's Word will illuminate you.
Yes. According to the Scriptures, the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled, both physically and Spiritually:

"And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one word has failed of all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one of them has failed. But just as all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the LORD will bring upon you all the evil things, until he has destroyed you from off this good land that the LORD your God has given you, if you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them. Then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from off the good land that he has given to you." (Joshua 23:14-16)



Abraham’s Covenant Fulfilled In His True Seed
"And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but only leaves. And he said to it, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree withered at once... Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.†(Matthew 21:19, 43)


Those who believe in Jesus as Savior are the true seed of Abraham.

Bubba
 
A article by Dr. Morton Smith on the Abrahamic Covenant:

Thus it is to the Abrahamic covenant that we look to see the beginnings of the Church as a formal organization. We have already noted that the Church existed in the line of the seed of the woman from Adam to Noah, and yet it did not have the formalized structure that was given to it by God in the Abrahamic covenant. This covenant is especially distinguished as an ecclesiological covenant. Its provisions all have special relation to a chosen people as an organized and visible body on earth through which all nations shall be blessed. From this time onward the promises of the Messiah, the victory over Satan, are associated with a definite form of a visible body of men. Stuart Robinson says:

It is a marked peculiarity of the Abrahamic covenant that it brings into view the Church visible, not simply as the external manifestation and development of the ideal mediatorial body of the Redeemer in the eternal covenant, but at the same time, also, as an actual institute for the calling and training of the elect people of God. From this time forward, through the entire revelation, the visible Church is exhibited as a body externally called to the privilege of receiving the oracles of God, and of being specially under the charge of Jehovah as his peculiar nation, the special beneficiary of his promises, and enjoying the special agency of his Holy Spirit.7

Let us now look at the elements of this covenant as they relate to the Church. The idea of God’s calling the assembly of his people is found in Genesis 12, where we have the call of Abram:

Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto the land that I will show thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Here is a call from the world to God’s land, a call to become a great nation, a call to become a blessing to all the rest of the world. We see the fulfillment of this in part in the OT Israelâ€â€but how much more in the NT Israel, the Christian Church! The condition Abraham met was faithful obedience to God. The element of faith was particularly designated in Gen 15:6: “And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness.†Paul cites this as evidence that the gospel has always been a gospel of grace and that justification has always been received by faith alone (Rom 4:3). He further indicates that all who believe are blessed with faithful Abraham (Gal 3:9) and that, if we believe, we are the sons of Abraham (Gal 3:7, 29). Not only is this so, but the kind of faith expected of Abraham is the kind of faith expected in the Church today. It must be a living faith, a faith that results in godliness of life. So James cites Abraham as demonstrating his faith by his works. So also Jesus teaches that if we love him we will keep his commandments.

The essential promise of the covenant is found in Gen 17:7: “And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee, throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.†This was the relation that Adam had had in his original created state and that he lost in the fall. It is this that God restored to sinful man in the gospel. This is the very essence of the Biblical religion. Notice that God says to Abraham that this is the covenantâ€â€nothing more nor less. God will be God to Abraham and to his seed after him, in an everlasting bond. This is one of the most repeated themes throughout the rest of the Bible. It is the theme of all the rest of the covenants, regardless of their particular area of amplification. We shall note this as we continue. It is sometimes called the Immanuel theme, for the meaning of this title of Christ is “God with us,†which epitomizes the covenant promise. This idea, of course, is that which distinguishes the Church from all other assemblies. The Church is the assembly of God’s people with God.
 
Bubba:

Let me illumine you more perfectly by God's Word. Here is some scripture that has not happened yet promised to the physical seed of Abraham.....


Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If this is the new covenant, then Christ ALREADY did his work and the covenant has been instituted and would be the same age we are now in. Yet, this promise is to the seed of Abraham giving them a New Heart, therefore the covenants to the physical seed of Abraham are yet good.

And Hosea prophesied concerning Israel and Judah:

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.


THEN..... i.e after they became sons of God. There's only one way to become a son of God and as God Himself. John chapter one answers that. Then and only then will the children of Israel and Judah be gathered together again. Where?

Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:


Jews agree as did Josephus that the ten tribes are lost yet (that's why I have a British-Israel doctrine). There is nothing in history that ever suggests that the two houses were yet rejoined. Yet, when they are, since the New Covenant already occurred, we see from this passage that they will THEN be gathered back to the land of Israel as promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Christ is the singular seed and fulfills the promise to Judah, the lines of the kings. But where you are lacking understanding is that the tribe of Joseph was the one promised to become nations. That is "seed" as well. Sometimes Genesis uses singular, sometimes multiple seed. Christ does not fulfill both, as a King needs a people to rule over---- commonsense.

Doesn't the church factor into this? Of course, and I see that, but that is not the whole picture. A coin falls on the floor facing heads up does not mean that is all there is to it. There is a tails underneath no matter how vehemently one may debate they only see the heads and that is all there is.

The land of Israel in part belongs to the Jews. They are two tribes of 12 that are included in the promise in Jeremiah 33:

Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Sounds like today. There is all kinds of theological tap-dancing (and that's all its worth) claiming the church replaced physical Israel. No, God promised to those physical seed to have new hearts so that they will be joined to that family of God, but the promises are still good even though they rebelled. So, when one states that the Jews have no right to that land, they are bordering on blasphemy, because God compares that to despising his people. And no way can that be convoluted to mean the church. There was no church yet when that promise was uttered.
 
Tim,
Just like in Amos 9:11 and Acts 15:16-17, (which I already mentioned), every last verse you listed has been fulfilled in Christ's first coming. You can play with the words as if they must be literally word for word fulfilled, but obviously James didn't need to, because that dark room that once was the Old Testament has been illuminated by the substance of Jesus, no longer shadows and types. Everything in the Old Testament prophecies, except the New Heavens, New Earth, final judgment has been fulfilled by Jesus and the church. I Peter 2:9, "but you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of the darkness into His light;" Meditate on that one verse and hopefully you will come to realize, the church is Israel, God's "own special people".
Blessings, Bubba
 
THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL, NOW

SECTION 1

OLD TESTAMENT TITLES AND ATTRIBUTES OF ISRAEL WHICH ARE,
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, REFERRED TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

THE BELOVED OF GOD
A. Israel Is Beloved Of God
Exo. 15:13 / Deu.33:3 / Ezr.3:11
B. Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God
Lev. 26:28. 30 / Jer. 12:8 / Jer. 16:5 / Hos. 9:l5 / Amo. 9:7 / Mat. 3:7 / Philip. 3:2 /
1 Th. 2:14-16 / Tit. 1:10
C. The Christians Are Beloved Of God
Rom. 1:7,9,25 / Eph. 5:1 / Col. 3:12 / Jo. 3:1 / 2 The. 2:13 / Rev. 1:4-6
THE CHILDREN OF GOD
A. lsraelites Are The Children Of God
Exo. 4:22 / Den. 14:1 / Isa. 1:2,4 / Isa. 63:8 / Jer. 31:9 / Hos. 11:1
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of God
Deu. 32:5 / John 8:39, 42, 44
C. The Christians Are The Children Of God
John. 1:12, 11:52 / Rom. 8:14,16 / 2 Cor. 6:18 / Gal. 3:26 / Gal. 4:5, 6, 7 /
Philip. 2:15 / 1 Jo. 3:1

THE FIELD OF GOD
A. Israel Is The Field Of God
Jer. 12:10
B. The Christians Are The Field Of God
I Cor. 3:9

THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH
A. Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah
Psa.78:52 / Psa.80:1 / Isa.40:ll / Jer.23:1, 2 ,3 / Jer.31:I0 / Eze. 34:12, 15, 16 /
Mic. 5:4 / Zec. 10:3
B. The Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah
John 10:14, 16 / Heb. 13:20 / 1 Pe. 2:25 / 1 Pe. 5:2, 3

THE HOUSE OF GOD
A. Israel Is The House Of God
Num. 12:7
B. The Christians Are The House Of God
I Tim. 3:15 / Heb. 3:2, 5, 6 / Heb. 10:21 / 1 Pe. 4:17

THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
A. The Israelites Are The Chosen People
Deu. 7:7 / Deu. 10:15 / Deu. 14:2 /Isa. 43:20, 21
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People
Deu. 31:17 / 2 Ki. 17:20 / 2 Chr. 25:7 / Psa. 78:59 / Jer. 6:30 / Jer. 7:29 / Jer. 14:10
C. The Christians Are The Chosen People
Col. 3:12 / 1 Pe. 2:9

THE CIRCUMCISED
A. The Israelites Are The Circumcised
Gen. 17:10, 13 / Jdg. 15:18
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised
Jer. 9:25. 26 / Rom. 2:25,28 / Philip. 3:2
C. The Christians Are The Circumcised
Rom. 2:29 / Philip. 3:3 / Col. 2:11

ISRAEL
A. Israel Is Israel
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites
Num. 15:30, 31 / Deu. 18:19 / Acts 3:23 / Rom,. 9:6
C. The Christians Are Israel
John 11:50, 51, 52 / 1 Cor. 10:1 / Gal. 5:6; 6:15, 16 / Eph. 2:12,19

JERUSALEM
A. Jerusalem IsThe City And Mother of Israelites
Psa. 149:2 / Isa. 12:6 / Isa. 49:18, 20, 22 / Isa. 51:18 / Lam. 4:2
B. Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians
Gal. 4:26 / Heb. 12:22

THE JEWS
A. Israelites Are Jews
Ezr. 5:1 / Jer. 34:8, 9 / Zec. 8:22, 23
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews
Rom. 2:28 / Rev. 2:9 / Rev 3:9
C. Christians Are True Jews
Rom. 2:29

THE NEW COVENANT
A. The New Covenant Is With Israel
Jer. 31:31, 33
B. The New Covenant Is With The Christians
Luke 22:20 / 1 Cor. 11:25 / 2 Cor. 3:6 / Heb. 8:6, 8, 10

AN OLIVE TREE
A. Israel Is An Olive Tree
Jer. 11:16 / Hos. 14:6
B. The Christians Are An Olive Tree
Rom. 11:24

THE KINGDOM OF GOD
A. Israel Is The Kingdom Of God
Exo. 19:6 1 Chr. 17:14/ 1 Chr. 28:5
B. Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom O fGod
Mat 8:11, 12 / Mat 21:43
C. The Christians Are The kingdom Of God
Rom. 14:17 / 1 Cor. 4:20 / Col. 1:13 / Col. 4:11 / Rev. 1:6

THE PEOPLE OF GOD
A. The Israelites Are The People Of God
Exo. 6:7 / Deu. 27:9 / 2 Sam. 7:23 / Jer. 11:4
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God
Hos. 1:9 / Jer.5:10
C. The Christians Are The People Of God
Rom. 9:25 / 2 Cor. 6:16 / Eph. 4:12 / Eph. 5:3 / 2Th. 1:10 / Tit. 2:14

THE PRIESTS OF GOD
A. The Israelites Are The Priests Of God
Exo. 19:6
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God
1 Sam. 2:28,30 / Lam. 4:13, 16 / Eze. 44:10, 13 / Hos 4.6 / Mal.2:2,4, 8 ,9
C. The Christians Are The Priests Of God
1 Pe. 2:5,9 / Rev. 1:6 / Rev. 5:10

THE VINEYARD OF GOD
A. The Israelites Is The Vineyard Of God
Isa. 5:3,4, 5, 7 /Jer. 12:10
B. The Christians Are The Vineyard Of God
Luke 20:16

THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD
A. Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
Isa. 54:5, 6 / Jer. 2:2 / Eze. 16:32 / Hos. 1:2
B. Disobedient Israel Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
Jer. 3:8 / Hos. 2:2
C. The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
2 Cor. 1l:2 / Eph.5:31, 32

THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM
A. The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham
2 Chr. 20:7 / Psa. 105:6 / Isa. 41:8
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of Abraham
John 8:39 / Rom,. 9:6, 7 / Gal. 4:25, 30
C. The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham
Rom. 4:11, 16 / Gal. 3:7, 29 / Gal. 4:23, 28, 31


SECTION 2

OLD TESTAMENT VERSES REFERRING TO ISRAEL WHICH ARE QUOTED
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AS REFERRING TO THE CHRISTIANS

QUOTE # 1: Lev. 26:11 / Eze. 37:27 / 2 Cor. 6:16
QUOTE # 2: Deu. 30:12-14 / Rom. 10:6-8
QUOTE # 3: Deu. 31:6 / Heb. 13:5
QUOTE # 4: Deu. 32:36 / Psa. 135:14 / Heb. 10:30
QUOTE # 5: Psa. 22:22 / Heb. 2:12
QUOTE # 6: Psa. 44:22 / Rom. 8:36
QUOTE # 7: Psa. 95:7-11 / Heb. 3:7-11
QUOTE # 8: Psa. 130:8 / Tit. 2:14
QUOTE # 9: Isa. 28:16 / Rom. 10:11 / Eph. 2:20 / 1 Pe. 2:6
QUOTE # 10: Isa. 49:8 / 2 Cor. 6:2
QUOTE # 11: Isa. 52:7 / Rom. 10:15
QUOTE # 12: Isa. 54:1 / Gal. 4:27
QUOTE # 13: Jer. 31:31-34 / Heb. 8:8-12
QUOTE # 14: Hos. 1:10; 2:23 / Rom. 9:25-26 / 1 Pe. 2:10
QUOTE # 15: Hos. 13:14 / 1 Cor. 15:55
QUOTE # 16: Joel 2:32 / Rom. 10:13
SECTION 3

OLD TESTAMENT ETHICAL COMMANDS TO ISRAEL WHICH ARE QUOTED
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AS APPLYING TO THE CHURCH

QUOTE #1: Exd.16:18 / 2Cor.8:15
QUOTE #2: Lev. 11:45; 19:2 / 1 Pe. 1:16
QUOTE #3: Deu. 5:16 / Eph. 6:2-3
QUOTE #4: Deu. 17:7; 19:19; 22:24; 24:7 / 1 Cor. 5:13
QUOTE #5: Deu. 19:15 / 2 Cor. 13:1 / 1 Tim. 5:19
QUOTE #6: Isa. 35:3 / Heb. 12:12
QUOTE #7: Isa. 48:20; 52:11 / 2 Cor. 6:17
Written circa 1985 AD by Carl Jones, Dale Pettyjohn, & Clif Loucks; of the church Christ built.
 
Emotionalism or dangerous mind set?

In a column entitled "Israeli Extremists and Christian Fundamentalists The Alliance", Grace Halsell wrote:

What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.

"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians-breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.

My premise in Prophecy and Politics is that Christian Zionism is a dangerous and growing segment of Christianity, which was popularized by the 19th-century American Cyrus Scofield when he wrote into a Bible his interpretation of events in history. These events all centered around Israel-past, present, and future. His Scofield Bible is today the most popular of the reference Bibles.

Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur. The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.
 
Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur. The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.

Right..... and I suppose stating the land belonging to Israel is racist. No doubt this belief is ingrained in many American liberal thinkers who are so quick to condemn Israel and deify other people in that area that are just as willing to fight for it. Well, the Americans can give their land back to the Indians, too. Any givers from that crowd? I thought not.

As for the church being Israel, they are called the Israel of God. I am talking about the Israel of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These are in the flesh yet. But the earthly promises still apply to them concurrently with the spiritual blessings and indeed work hand-in-hand. I see heads and tails. You seem to only see heads and say there's no more tails just because that side is face down.
 
Tim,
My main reason for starting this thread, was to try and show that those who adhere to American Dispensationalism, need to be careful and not dismiss the evil that a country does against another people, simply because our "End Time" view incorporates the need for that country to fulfill prophecy. The other reason I started this thread, for the first 15 years of my walk with Christ I didn't even know there was other views of eschatology. Now 31 years later, I have come to realize, not only are there other views, but in my estimation, all the others have truths that I can now accept (Postmillennial, Amillennial, Historic Premillinnial, Partial Preterism, etc), only Dispensationalism brings trouble to my Biblical understanding.
Now in regards to the Jews, I do believe when God removes the "stupor", many a ethnic Jew will receive Christ before He comes the 2nd time. When Romans 11:26, states "all of Israel will be saved", I believe all of "true Israel" will be saved, but only through Jesus Christ (Romans 10) and then and only then will they be grafted back into the one olive tree spoken of in Romans 11.

Grace, Bubba
 

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