Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?

[Runningman]

But Jesus says several times that he came from heaven, even in John 6. That is exactly why John writes that in his prologue and Paul also writes that in Phil 2:6-8. The Son preexisted, of that there is no doubt, and he did so as deity, as the second person of the Trinity, the Word, who is God the Son.

Also, the Bible says many things came from heaven that did not literally exist in heaven before they were on earth. Let's being with the evidence rather than beginning with a doctrine then looking for evidence to support it. If you have any proof from the Bible of what Jesus was saying or doing before his birth that would be helpful.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Okay. I haven't seen anyone explain or describe what Jesus was doing in a pre-existent state. Why does the Old Testament contain no words or actions by Jesus, but just prophecy?

You may not be familiar with the doctrine of the hypostatic union. This is a union of the 2nd person with the nature of man (thus a human and divine nature). Jesus' as composed of the two natures did not exist until His birth at which time the eternal 2nd nature of God inhabited a human nature (without change to the nature of the 2nd person).


The Old Testament is full of references to the second nature of God inhabiting a human nature. In these instances the 2nd person is referred to as THE Angel of God.

Evidences establishing “The Angel of God” as being Christ

The name of the Angel

Joshua 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” 14 And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?” 15 And the commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so. A unfallen angel of God would never allow himself to be worshiped; thus deity is identified. Also Joshua, like Moses on Mount Sinai when he met God (The Angel of the Lord), was told to take off his sandals because he was standing on holy ground.

Genesis 22:15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, [God can swear by no greater power than Himself]

Judges 2:2 Now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you [Israel] up from Egypt and brought you into the land that I swore to give to your fathers. I said, “I will never break my covenant with you
Genesis 16:7 -13
Genesis 21:17
Genesis 22:11 -17
Genesis 24:7, Genesis 24:40
Genesis 31:11
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire
Judges 6:20 -24

yaha, yada

 

[Free]

Okay. I haven't seen anyone explain or describe what Jesus was doing in a pre-existent state. Why does the Old Testament contain no words or actions by Jesus, but just prophecy?

I've addressed this before. Jesus is the God-man, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity in human flesh. As God, the Son is also Yahweh, the name of the Trinity. We see prophecy of the Son becoming flesh in the person of the Messiah, but, as Fastfredy0 pointed out, there are instances of God appearing in human flesh in the OT. Those are theophanies and possible Christophanies. In short, whatever Yahweh was doing, all persons of the Trinity were doing.

Also, the Bible says many things came from heaven that did not literally exist in heaven before they were on earth. Let's being with the evidence rather than beginning with a doctrine then looking for evidence to support it.

The preexistence of the Son is clearly seen in Scripture. Jesus clearly thought he believed he existed before coming to earth, which is likely why you have yet to address the many passages showing this to be the case, despite my repeated posting of them. John tells us Jesus preexisted in John 1:1-3, 10, 14, and 3:31. Jesus tells us he preexisted in John 3:13, 6:33, 38, 50-51, 62, 8:23, 13:3, 16:27-28, and 17:5, 8. Notice that the disciples finally understood in John 16:30, with it culminating in Thomas's declaration that Jesus was his Lord and his God.

Remember, John was with Jesus first, hearing and seeing all that Jesus said and did. Then he wrote his gospel many years later, no doubt after much contemplation about what he heard and saw. The purpose of his prologue is to show who Jesus was and is, and it must inform everything else we read about Jesus in rest of his gospel.

Additionally, Matthew sure seemed to think that Jesus was "God with us" (Matt 1:23), which would obviously mean preexistence. Paul repeated the argument in John 1:3, twice (1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:15-16), by which the only conclusion is that Jesus was also deity, which necessarily entails preexistence. Then Paul wrote Phil 2:6-8, which explicitly states that the Son was God but came to earth in human form, repeating what John wrote in his prologue (1:1-2, 14). We also have Heb 1:2-3, 10-12 which repeat John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17.

In short, there is much evidence that the Son preexisted because he his deity and cannot cease being deity, even when taking on human flesh (John 1:14; Phil 2:6-8; Heb 1:3).

 

[Runningman]

You may not be familiar with the doctrine of the hypostatic union. This is a union of the 2nd person with the nature of man (thus a human and divine nature). Jesus' as composed of the two natures did not exist until His birth at which time the eternal 2nd nature of God inhabited a human nature (without change to the nature of the 2nd person).


The Old Testament is full of references to the second nature of God inhabiting a human nature. In these instances the 2nd person is referred to as THE Angel of God.

Evidences establishing “The Angel of God” as being Christ

The name of the Angel

Joshua 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” 14 And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?” 15 And the commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so. A unfallen angel of God would never allow himself to be worshiped; thus deity is identified. Also Joshua, like Moses on Mount Sinai when he met God (The Angel of the Lord), was told to take off his sandals because he was standing on holy ground.

Genesis 22:15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, [God can swear by no greater power than Himself]

Judges 2:2 Now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you [Israel] up from Egypt and brought you into the land that I swore to give to your fathers. I said, “I will never break my covenant with you
Genesis 16:7 -13
Genesis 21:17
Genesis 22:11 -17
Genesis 24:7, Genesis 24:40
Genesis 31:11
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire
Judges 6:20 -24

yaha, yada

I am familiar with the hypostatic union. In the hypostatic union doctrine, it requires that God was the sacrifice for sins yet the Bible is clear God is immortal. Therefore God wasn't sacrificed. A mortal man was sacrificed and later resurrected [by God] as the Bible says. Therefore, a mortal man is the atoning sin sacrifice.

Unbelievable? Believe it. To understand what Jesus accomplished, we need to understand that mortals being sacrificed to atone for sins in the Bible is completely precedented and foundational to understanding the sacrifice of Jesus. Animal sacrifices being used in conjunction with the forgiveness of sins against God is Scripture.

Leviticus 4​

20He shall offer this bull just as he did the bull for the sin offering; in this way the priest will make atonement on their behalf, and they will be forgiven.​

26He must burn all its fat on the altar, like the fat of the peace offerings; thus the priest will make atonement for that man’s sin, and he will be forgiven.​

​

With that being said, what makes you think that the sacrifice of God was required to forgive sins? They used animals before, but when the Son was sacrificed, being a sinless man, his sacrifice was sufficient to forgive sins once and for all. Hence, the literal blood of Jesus Christ being sufficient to forgive sins.

Hebrews 9​

13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that their bodies are clean, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!​

Therefore, the hypostatic union is also false.

 

[Runningman]

I've addressed this before. Jesus is the God-man, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity in human flesh. As God, the Son is also Yahweh, the name of the Trinity. We see prophecy of the Son becoming flesh in the person of the Messiah, but, as Fastfredy0 pointed out, there are instances of God appearing in human flesh in the OT. Those are theophanies and possible Christophanies. In short, whatever Yahweh was doing, all persons of the Trinity were doing.

Not stated in the Bible. That's called a doctrine and a theology.

The preexistence of the Son is clearly seen in Scripture. Jesus clearly thought he believed he existed before coming to earth, which is likely why you have yet to address the many passages showing this to be the case, despite my repeated posting of them. John tells us Jesus preexisted in John 1:1-3, 10, 14, and 3:31. Jesus tells us he preexisted in John 3:13, 6:33, 38, 50-51, 62, 8:23, 13:3, 16:27-28, and 17:5, 8. Notice that the disciples finally understood in John 16:30, with it culminating in Thomas's declaration that Jesus was his Lord and his God.

John 1:1-3 is personification of a non-person thing. There is no record of a pre-existent being known as the Word. It also doesn't follow to a sound conclusion that God was with God. The word is personified repeatedly in the Old Testament. (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11)​

​

John 1:10 is about God creating the world, not the Word. If you will look at verse 9, the "The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world." That means the true Light was coming into the world in the present tense after John the Baptist came testifying about the true Light. That would place Jesus at ~30 years of age. The world wasn't made through Jesus when he was ~30 years old. The True Light made the world.​

​

John 1:14 is about God's word (the logos, the words, speech, divine utterance) of God speaking to create in Mary a human.​

​

John 3:31 is not something unique to Jesus. Jesus had already stated in John 3:3 that those born from above will see the kingdom of God. Therefore, those born from above also came from above, but not physically of course; this is spiritual. This is repeated by Paul in Eph. 2:6. What Jesus is saying is that those in the kingdom of heaven are greater than those from earth, such as stated in Matt 11:11.​

​

In John 3:13, Jesus didn't pre-exist in heaven as a son of man. The Bible says the term son of man refers to humans. Job 25:6, Psalm 80:17, Psalm 144:3.​

​

John 6:33,38,50-51,62 Jesus compares himself to the manna that came down from heaven to feed the Israelites. The manna from heaven didn't pre-exist eternally. Therefore, for the comparison to be true, Jesus didn't pre-exist eternally either.​

Do I need to refute all of these misconceptions? The point is that if deity isn't deity in even one example then they aren't deity at all.

So the way to get around the discrepancy Trinitarianism holds with the Bible is to not deify Jesus. The Bible says the Father is the only true God.

John 17:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10, 1 John 5:20, etc. So how many times does this need to be explicitly stated before it's true? It's also true. There is no doctrine for the Father being in the image of God, or God creating through the Father, or the Father becoming flesh, etc. The Father is God and Jesus is His Son according to scripture.

This is precisely why in Jesus' teachings he only taught about worshipping the Father. John 4:23,24
Only pray to the Father. Matthew 6:6,9
Only fast for the Father. Matthew 6:16-18

There is no teaching or commandment about worshipping Jesus. Nothing about praying to Jesus. Nothing about fasting for Jesus. God can't die, but Jesus died. The proof against the deity of Jesus is massive. Paul said worshipping creatures, such as men like Jesus, is idolatry in Romans 1.

No one believed Jesus is God in the Bible. John and Peter demonstrated this clearly in Acts 4:24-27, referring to Jesus as a servant of the Creator.

Acts 3:13 clearly shows Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Matthew 11:25 and Acts 17:24 clearly show the Lord of heaven and earth is God who created all and isn't served by human hands. Jesus has human hands.

Jesus denied being God in Luke 18:19 and Matthew 19:17.

Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 say God is not a man. God who does not change and cannot lie denied being a man.

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;
I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim.
For I am God and not man—
the Holy One among you—
and I will not come in wrath.

Therefore, Jesus isn't God and the Trinity is false.

 

[Runningman]

You may not be familiar with the doctrine of the hypostatic union. This is a union of the 2nd person with the nature of man (thus a human and divine nature). Jesus' as composed of the two natures did not exist until His birth at which time the eternal 2nd nature of God inhabited a human nature (without change to the nature of the 2nd person).


The Old Testament is full of references to the second nature of God inhabiting a human nature. In these instances the 2nd person is referred to as THE Angel of God.

Evidences establishing “The Angel of God” as being Christ

The name of the Angel

Joshua 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” 14 And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?” 15 And the commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so. A unfallen angel of God would never allow himself to be worshiped; thus deity is identified. Also Joshua, like Moses on Mount Sinai when he met God (The Angel of the Lord), was told to take off his sandals because he was standing on holy ground.

Genesis 22:15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, [God can swear by no greater power than Himself]

Judges 2:2 Now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you [Israel] up from Egypt and brought you into the land that I swore to give to your fathers. I said, “I will never break my covenant with you
Genesis 16:7 -13
Genesis 21:17
Genesis 22:11 -17
Genesis 24:7, Genesis 24:40
Genesis 31:11
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire
Judges 6:20 -24

yaha, yada

I also wanted to comment again regarding the angel of the LORD. The angel of the LORD is not the LORD (YHWH) Himself. Being called the angel of the LORD refers to to the relationship between the angel and the LORD as being one of possession. The angel is the LORD's and belongs to the LORD. The angel isn't the LORD.

In Zechariah, we can clearly see that the angel and the LORD are not the same person or being. They are having a conversation with each other. The angel spoke to the LORD and then the LORD spoke to the angel. That means they are clearly not same person.

Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”

13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.

 

[Fastfredy0]

With that being said, what makes you think that the sacrifice of God was required to forgive sins?

Ah, because it states that is the case in the bible.
It clearly states Jesus is God:

• John 8:58 “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” This makes Jesus eternal and only God is eternal
• John 14:9 “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” 10 “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Jesus saying He and the Father are one, thus Jesus is God
• John 20:28 Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” Can it be any plainer
• John 1:14 The Word (note the translators use a capital "W") became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
• Matthew 1:23 “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
• yada, yada

Warning: Those that don't believe Jesus is God are in eternal peril as such a believe is essential to salvific faith. If one believes/worships Jesus as a "man only" you are worshiping an idol. IMO

Question for Free .... I believe a person cannot be saved if they do not recognize Jesus is God. What is your opinion (I'm curious).

 

[Runningman]

Ah, because it states that is the case in the bible.
It clearly states Jesus is God:

• John 8:58 “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” This makes Jesus eternal and only God is eternal
• John 14:9 “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” 10 “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Jesus saying He and the Father are one, thus Jesus is God
• John 20:28 Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” Can it be any plainer
• John 1:14 The Word (note the translators use a capital "W") became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
• Matthew 1:23 “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
• yada, yada

Begin with John 17:3 where it says the Father is the only true God. Despite what others opinions of Jesus may have been, they are descriptive, not prescriptive. Case in point, Jesus never said he is anyone's god or God.

Warning: Those that don't believe Jesus is God are in eternal peril as such a believe is essential to salvific faith. If one believes/worships Jesus as a "man only" you are worshiping an idol. IMO

Nothing about believing Jesus is God being required for salvation in the Bible. So you're preaching a false gospel. Those who preach a false gospel, Paul said let them be accursed.

 

[electedbyhim]

7. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver, and the antichrist. 8. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

a. “Many deceivers … have gone out into the world.” The translators of the New International Version have omitted the word because which stands at the beginning of the sentence in Greek. Apart from minor variations, this sentence resembles 1 John 4:1, “Because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” John calls these false prophets deceivers, for they are filled with a spirit of deception and seek the spiritual destruction of Christians. There are many deceivers. We assume that formerly they were part of the Christian community. They left the church (see 1 John 2:19) to make the world the domain for their pernicious doctrines. And in the world they try to persuade the Christians to accept their views.

b. “Who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.” Note that John mentions the full name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, to remind his readers of his human and divine nature. These deceivers continue to proclaim their opposition to the teaching that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

Already in his first epistle, John warns the readers to test the spirits: “Every spirit [teaching] that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God” (4:2–3). Even though there is similarity between this passage and that of 2 John 7, the difference in the verb forms has come (1 John 4:2) and as coming (2 John 7) is obvious. The one verb is in the past tense, the other in the present. Is there a difference in meaning? Hardly. The past tense describes Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the present tense is a descriptive term about Christ. In the New Testament, the expression the one who is coming is a messianic designation (e.g., Matt. 11:2; John 1:15, 27; 12:13; Rev. 1:4). Thus, John applies the present tense of the participle coming to Jesus Christ as a testimony to anyone who denies this truth.

c. “Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.” John is not afraid to give the false teacher names. Here he calls him not only the deceiver, but also the antichrist—that is, the person who comes in the place of Christ (compare 1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3). At the beginning of this verse (v. 7), John refers to many deceivers; therefore we should understand the appellation the antichrist as a collective name.

d. “Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for.” In these words we hear an echo of Jesus’ discourse on the signs of the end of the age. Jesus begins his teaching with the warning, “Watch out that no one deceives you” (Mark 13:5; also see vv. 9, 23, 33). Similarly, John tells the readers to keep their eyes on their spiritual possessions so that they will not lose them. He no longer requests them to do something. Instead he gives them a command.

We have three different translations for verse 8. Here they are with the variations in italics:

1. that we [do] not lose those things we have worked for, but that we receive a full reward (NKJV; and see KJV).

2. so that you may not lose all that we worked for, but receive your reward in full (NEB; also see NASB, ASV, RV, GNB, and JB).

3. that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully (NIV; and see NAB, RSV, MLB, and Moffatt).

The better Greek manuscripts have the reading you in place of “we.” Translators therefore favor either the second or the third reading. The difference between these two readings is the phrase we worked for over against “you worked for.” Although translators are about equally divided on this point, the more difficult reading is “we worked for” and is to be preferred.12

What is the meaning of the phrase rewarded fully? It does not mean salvation which, because it is a gift, cannot be earned (Eph. 2:8–9). We merit a reward for faithfulness, obedience, and diligence. Nevertheless, a reward is also a gift of God and therefore “one further token of the free grace of God.”13 Scripture teaches that a worker in God’s kingdom receives his full reward (compare Matt. 20:8; John 4:36; and see James 5:4).

Greek Words, Phrases, and Constructions in 7–8

Verse 7​

ὅτι—a causal conjunction (because). See 1 John 3:11 for a similar construction.

μὴ ὁμολογοῦντες—this present active participle discloses the continued refusal by the deceivers to acknowledge the humanity of Jesus Christ.

ἐρχόμενον—in the form of a present participle the word serves as an appellation for Christ.

Verse 8​

ἀπολέσητε—from the verb ἀπόλλυμι (I destroy, lose), the aorist subjunctive is an indirect command that follows the verb βλέπετε (watch out [second person plural, present imperative]). The aorist is ingressive.

εἰργασάμεθα—the aorist of ἐργάζομαι (I work) is comprehensive. The stress is “on the activity rather than on its product.”14

 

[Fastfredy0]

Nothing about believing Jesus is God being required for salvation in the Bible. So you're preaching a false gospel. Those who preach a false gospel, Paul said let them be accursed.

Well, one of us is preaching a false gospel. We will see who is correct one day.
... interesting, Thomas, one of the apostles of God says: John 20:28 "Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” and yet you believe an apostle of God in a book written by another apostle as inspired by the Spirit of God got it wrong.
We will see who is correct one day. *giggle*

 

[Runningman]

Well, one of us is preaching a false gospel. We will see who is correct one day.
... interesting, Thomas, one of the apostles of God says: John 20:28 "Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” and yet you believe an apostle of God in a book written by another apostle as inspired by the Spirit of God got it wrong.
We will see who is correct one day. *giggle*

If you want to put your faith in something the Bible doesn’t say, even after being informed of such, I can’t stop you, but it’s pardonable.

A bit of advice for you:

Luke 18
13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”


P.s. - John 20:17 says Jesus and his brothers’ God is the Father. I am going with what Jesus said, not what you think Thomas, who wasn’t praised for his answer, meant.

 

[Runningman]

7. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver, and the antichrist. 8. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

a. “Many deceivers … have gone out into the world.” The translators of the New International Version have omitted the word because which stands at the beginning of the sentence in Greek. Apart from minor variations, this sentence resembles 1 John 4:1, “Because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” John calls these false prophets deceivers, for they are filled with a spirit of deception and seek the spiritual destruction of Christians. There are many deceivers. We assume that formerly they were part of the Christian community. They left the church (see 1 John 2:19) to make the world the domain for their pernicious doctrines. And in the world they try to persuade the Christians to accept their views.

b. “Who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.” Note that John mentions the full name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, to remind his readers of his human and divine nature. These deceivers continue to proclaim their opposition to the teaching that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

Already in his first epistle, John warns the readers to test the spirits: “Every spirit [teaching] that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God” (4:2–3). Even though there is similarity between this passage and that of 2 John 7, the difference in the verb forms has come (1 John 4:2) and as coming (2 John 7) is obvious. The one verb is in the past tense, the other in the present. Is there a difference in meaning? Hardly. The past tense describes Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the present tense is a descriptive term about Christ. In the New Testament, the expression the one who is coming is a messianic designation (e.g., Matt. 11:2; John 1:15, 27; 12:13; Rev. 1:4). Thus, John applies the present tense of the participle coming to Jesus Christ as a testimony to anyone who denies this truth.

c. “Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.” John is not afraid to give the false teacher names. Here he calls him not only the deceiver, but also the antichrist—that is, the person who comes in the place of Christ (compare 1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3). At the beginning of this verse (v. 7), John refers to many deceivers; therefore we should understand the appellation the antichrist as a collective name.

d. “Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for.” In these words we hear an echo of Jesus’ discourse on the signs of the end of the age. Jesus begins his teaching with the warning, “Watch out that no one deceives you” (Mark 13:5; also see vv. 9, 23, 33). Similarly, John tells the readers to keep their eyes on their spiritual possessions so that they will not lose them. He no longer requests them to do something. Instead he gives them a command.

We have three different translations for verse 8. Here they are with the variations in italics:

1. that we [do] not lose those things we have worked for, but that we receive a full reward (NKJV; and see KJV).

2. so that you may not lose all that we worked for, but receive your reward in full (NEB; also see NASB, ASV, RV, GNB, and JB).

3. that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully (NIV; and see NAB, RSV, MLB, and Moffatt).

The better Greek manuscripts have the reading you in place of “we.” Translators therefore favor either the second or the third reading. The difference between these two readings is the phrase we worked for over against “you worked for.” Although translators are about equally divided on this point, the more difficult reading is “we worked for” and is to be preferred.12

What is the meaning of the phrase rewarded fully? It does not mean salvation which, because it is a gift, cannot be earned (Eph. 2:8–9). We merit a reward for faithfulness, obedience, and diligence. Nevertheless, a reward is also a gift of God and therefore “one further token of the free grace of God.”13 Scripture teaches that a worker in God’s kingdom receives his full reward (compare Matt. 20:8; John 4:36; and see James 5:4).

Greek Words, Phrases, and Constructions in 7–8

Verse 7​

ὅτι—a causal conjunction (because). See 1 John 3:11 for a similar construction.

μὴ ὁμολογοῦντες—this present active participle discloses the continued refusal by the deceivers to acknowledge the humanity of Jesus Christ.

ἐρχόμενον—in the form of a present participle the word serves as an appellation for Christ.

Verse 8​

ἀπολέσητε—from the verb ἀπόλλυμι (I destroy, lose), the aorist subjunctive is an indirect command that follows the verb βλέπετε (watch out [second person plural, present imperative]). The aorist is ingressive.

εἰργασάμεθα—the aorist of ἐργάζομαι (I work) is comprehensive. The stress is “on the activity rather than on its product.”14

Fastfredy0 not sure why you loved this because you deny it. Did you read the part where it says Jesus Christ came in the flesh? That's all good and I agree. Notice it says nothing about God coming in the flesh like you seem to be saying.

 

[electedbyhim]

Fastfredy0 not sure why you loved this because you deny it. Did you read the part where it says Jesus Christ came in the flesh? That's all good and I agree. Notice it says nothing about God coming in the flesh like you seem to be saying.

From the commentary...

b. “Who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.” Note that John mentions the full name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, to remind his readers of his human and divine nature. These deceivers continue to proclaim their opposition to the teaching that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

From Ligonier.org

A nature is that which makes something what it is, those attributes that define it. For example, the divine nature is marked by divine attributes such as omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, self-existence, eternity, and so on. To have a divine nature is to possess all the attributes that make God who He is. Thus, when we say that Jesus has a divine nature, we are saying that He possesses every attribute that God possesses in His divine nature. He is truly God.

Christ’s possession of the divine nature is taught directly in passages such as John 1:1–18. We can also look to episodes in our Lord’s life that reveal His divine nature to us. In today’s passage, for example, Jesus creates life, raising a young girl from the dead, simply by commanding her to live (Mark 5:21–43). That is something only God can do, for He created life by speaking it into existence (Gen. 1). Another passage that reveals Jesus’ possession of the divine nature is John 1:43–51. Here we see evidence of omniscience, as Jesus tells Nathanael that he was sitting under a fig tree before our Lord encountered him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus said this to the Jews who had the Old Testament.
I think all somebody has to know is that Jesus is the OT Messiah and that God used Him as a sacrifice for their sins. Otherwise, we are getting at salivation through knowledge rather than through faith.

Faith has to be in the right object

 

[Free]

Not stated in the Bible. That's called a doctrine and a theology.

Of course it's a doctrine and theology. Doctrine comes from the Bible and is based on theology.

John 1:1-3 is personification of a non-person thing. There is no record of a pre-existent being known as the Word. It also doesn't follow to a sound conclusion that God was with God. The word is personified repeatedly in the Old Testament. (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11)​

You need to provide evidence that John 1:1-3 is a personification. So far you have only given your opinion, and your opinion cannot account for what John states. You're appealing to Proverbs and Psalms, both of which use a fair amount of poetry and figurative language.

John's gospel, however, is historical narrative, the whole point of which John gives us at the end:

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

Joh 21:24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true. (ESV)

The whole point is that we can know who Jesus, the Son of God, is. If John didn't write actual fact in John 1:1-3, then there was no purpose in what he wrote. Different genres require different approaches to interpretation.

John 1:10 is about God creating the world, not the Word. If you will look at verse 9, the "The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world." That means the true Light was coming into the world in the present tense after John the Baptist came testifying about the true Light. That would place Jesus at ~30 years of age. The world wasn't made through Jesus when he was ~30 years old. The True Light made the world.​

No. The plain reading of that passage shows a clear change in chronology when John the Baptist is mentioned. is speaking of the Word, the Son, not the Father.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

Joh 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)
Joh 1:16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

There is one continuous thought in John's prologue--who the Messiah is. And John plainly states that the Messiah has never not existed, being the preincarnate Word, the Son, who is also in nature God. Of course, that he is in nature God necessarily follows from John already having stated 1) that when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence, and 2) the Word was in a living union and communion with God. That is further supported by the Word having been involved in the creation of every that was created. It necessarily follows from this that the Word cannot be created himself.

The rest of the passage clearly is linked to the Word by continuous use of "he," "him," and "his." The true light whom John bore witness of can only be the Word, the Messiah.

John 1:14 is about God's word (the logos, the words, speech, divine utterance) of God speaking to create in Mary a human.​

That's not found anywhere in Scripture, right?

Mat 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
Mat 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). (ESV)

Luk 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. (ESV)

John 3:31 is not something unique to Jesus. Jesus had already stated in John 3:3 that those born from above will see the kingdom of God. Therefore, those born from above also came from above, but not physically of course; this is spiritual. This is repeated by Paul in Eph. 2:6. What Jesus is saying is that those in the kingdom of heaven are greater than those from earth, such as stated in Matt 11:11.​

No. John 3:31 is either John the Baptist or John making the statement that Jesus is from above.

In John 3:13, Jesus didn't pre-exist in heaven as a son of man. The Bible says the term son of man refers to humans. Job 25:6, Psalm 80:17, Psalm 144:3.​

Of course he didn't and no one is saying he did. But, he did say that he descended from heaven, and since he didn't do that in the flesh, when did he?

John 6:33,38,50-51,62 Jesus compares himself to the manna that came down from heaven to feed the Israelites. The manna from heaven didn't pre-exist eternally. Therefore, for the comparison to be true, Jesus didn't pre-exist eternally either.​

It's irrelevant if the manna didn't preexist eternally. The point is that Jesus, as the Son, came from heaven. That means he preexisted, and, as John has already pointed out, he existed "for eternity past" as the Word, as the Son.

Do I need to refute all of these misconceptions? The point is that if deity isn't deity in even one example then they aren't deity at all.

That is a fallacious argument. It doesn't follow that if one example was proven to not show deity that every other example wouldn't be an example of deity. If you could refute just one, that would be interesting.

So the way to get around the discrepancy Trinitarianism holds with the Bible is to not deify Jesus. The Bible says the Father is the only true God.

It says a lot more than that, including the at Jesus is deity, equal to the Father.

John 17:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10, 1 John 5:20, etc. So how many times does this need to be explicitly stated before it's true? It's also true.

Out of context those may seem to say one thing, but as I have pointed out numerous times, the logic of 1 Cor 8:6 can only mean that the Son is also God in nature.

 

[Free]

There is no doctrine for the Father being in the image of God, or God creating through the Father, or the Father becoming flesh, etc.

Of course not, but that isn't relevant. The Father was involved in creation, the Son was involved in creation, and the Holy Spirit was involved in creation.

The Father is God and Jesus is His Son according to scripture.

Of course, and since every son is the exact same nature as his father, it necessarily follows that the Son is also deity.

This is precisely why in Jesus' teachings he only taught about worshipping the Father. John 4:23,24
Only pray to the Father. Matthew 6:6,9
Only fast for the Father. Matthew 6:16-18

And why would Jesus accept worship? Jesus taught that people should pray to and worship the Father because the Father is God and was in heaven, but that doesn't preclude Jesus from also being God.

There is no teaching or commandment about worshipping Jesus. Nothing about praying to Jesus. Nothing about fasting for Jesus. God can't die, but Jesus died. The proof against the deity of Jesus is massive. Paul said worshipping creatures, such as men like Jesus, is idolatry in Romans 1.

And, yet, Jesus accepted worship on a few occasions:

Mat 14:32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (ESV)

Mat 28:8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.
Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
…
Mat 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

Luk 24:50 And he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them.
Luk 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven.
Luk 24:52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, (ESV)
Jhn 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.”
Jhn 9:38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
Jhn 9:39 Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” (ESV)

The context is important in each instance.

No one believed Jesus is God in the Bible. John and Peter demonstrated this clearly in Acts 4:24-27, referring to Jesus as a servant of the Creator.

Of course Jesus was the servant, the Messiah, but how, exactly, does that mean they believed Jesus wasn’t God? John clearly did, Thomas did, and Peter did:

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (ESV)

Acts 3:13 clearly shows Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Matthew 11:25 and Acts 17:24 clearly show the Lord of heaven and earth is God who created all and isn't served by human hands. Jesus has human hands.

Of course Jesus has human hands. If God came to earth as a human, what sort of hands should he have?

Jesus denied being God in Luke 18:19 and Matthew 19:17.

Where did Jesus deny being God?

Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 say God is not a man. God who does not change and cannot lie denied being a man.

God isn’t a man, he is God, and we have already agreed that God cannot cease being God. But how, exactly, does that mean that God cannot come and also become human?

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;
I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim.
For I am God and not man—
the Holy One among you—
and I will not come in wrath.

Therefore, Jesus isn't God and the Trinity is false.

Not a single thing you have given proves the deity of Jesus or Trinity false; not even close. Everything you have given is fallaciously begging the question—you assume the very thing you conclude with each of those passages.

 

[Free]

Begin with John 17:3 where it says the Father is the only true God.

Begin with John 1:1-18. That forms the basis for all that John says and records about who Jesus is. Starting elsewhere is sure to mean it is being taken out of context.

Despite what others opinions of Jesus may have been, they are descriptive, not prescriptive. Case in point, Jesus never said he is anyone's god or God.

He did in John 8:58 and implied it numerous times.

Nothing about believing Jesus is God being required for salvation in the Bible. So you're preaching a false gospel. Those who preach a false gospel, Paul said let them be accursed.

It isn’t required to be saved, but no saved person will argue against the deity of Jesus. Paul equates calling on the name of Yahweh for salvation as confessing Jesus is Lord (Rom 10:9-13).

 

[Free]

Question for Free .... I believe a person cannot be saved if they do not recognize Jesus is God. What is your opinion (I'm curious).

I agree, in a roundabout way.

Psa 49:7 Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life,
Psa 49:8 for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

A mere man, a creature, just like with the animal sacrifices, is insufficient to make atonement for the sins of all men in all times.

This is what I hold to:

“Basically, you need to know your need and God’s provision in Jesus, and then respond to that by trusting Jesus for your salvation. In other words, you trust in the person of Jesus Christ. It may be after that that you find out that Jesus is also God. You don’t need to know that Jesus is God before the fact.
…
I don’t think that a person can repudiate the deity of Christ and call themselves a Christian because I think that the notion of the deity of Christ—God becoming man, God in three persons, one essence—is an essential defining doctrine of the faith. In other words, if you reject an essential or defining doctrine then you cannot call yourself by the title that is defined by these doctrines.“

https://www.str.org/w/must-we-believe-jesus-is-god-

 

[Humblepie]

John 1:10
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Jesus is God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

“Basically, you need to know your need and God’s provision in Jesus, and then respond to that by trusting Jesus for your salvation. In other words, you trust in the person of Jesus Christ. It may be after that that you find out that Jesus is also God. You don’t need to know that Jesus is God before the fact.

Totally agree save for I think one must understand Christ is God to be saved. That being said I am 90% sure in my own mind which is not evidence. I read a very good book on what 'saving faith' is composed of and the guy wrote one doesn't have to believe Christ is God. (aside: by Rick Brown https://www.ijfm.org/PDFs_IJFM/17_4_PDFs/02_Brown_Beliefs_hw.pdf )
The following is my 2 proof texts: John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe [with a deep, abiding trust] that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of God; and that by believing [and trusting in and relying on Him] you may have life in His name. What aspects of the definition of "Christ" and the definition of "Son of God" must be believed to be saved? For example, if "Son of God" means Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity then basically you're saying one must believe Christ is God to be saved. "To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.”
1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit.

Thanks for your response. You have a lot of patience to list so many verses for Runningman *giggle*