Bible Study Do you think.......

[Nathan]

The Pharisee's believed they were doing wrong in what they said and did?

As in, did they make a conscience decision, knowing full well they were going against God, in what they did - which elicited so many of Jesus' words against them?

I'm not talking about any one thing they did specifically. We know, in hind sight - and from Jesus' teachings - that they were doing things wrong. But did they at the time?

 

[th1b.taylor]

The high priest did. He remarked that it was good that one should die for the many. Jesus marked the end of the need for them and they had grown to lust after the good life. They are recorded as praying out loud in the streets that others would know they were holy.

 

[Anto9us]

I think Saul of Tarsus thought he was doing RIGHT in persecuting Christians til he got BLINDED BY THE LIGHT

Pharisees AS A WHOLE?

hARD TO ANSWER

 

[Nathan]

I think Saul of Tarsus thought he was doing RIGHT in persecuting Christians til he got BLINDED BY THE LIGHT

Pharisees AS A WHOLE?

hARD TO ANSWER

Right, that's one of the main reasons I think they did think they were doing "good". It is pretty obvious that Paul thought what he was doing was right, and he must have been taught by someone, etc.

 

[Chopper]

Well hello Nathan. My, you've been around for a long time, 2010. I think this is the first time our paths have crossed. This is an interesting thread you've started here. Actually, I like anything that deals with Israel. I have been a student of the Old Covenant for years. I find there's a lot of good knowledge about the heart of God. I especially like to know what pleases Him, what He likes and dislikes.

you said....

The Pharisee's believed they were doing wrong in what they said and did?

To approach an answer, perhaps I can quote a passage from the book I'm currently studying, Ezekiel. It breaks my heart to know how much God loved the Nation of Israel and how lousy they responded to His love, patience, and miracles that showed them His power, especially as they came out of Egypt and journeyed through the wilderness.

To start God's Prophet Ezekiel off on what He wanted from Ezekiel, here's how He described the people of whom he was to speak against....
Ezekiel 2:3 "And he said to me, "Son of man, I send you to the people of Israel, to nations of rebels, who have rebelled against me. They and their fathers have transgressed against me to this very day.
2:4 The descendants also are impudent and stubborn: I send you to them, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
2:5 And whether they hear or refuse to hear (for they are a rebellious house) they will know that a prophet has been among them.

Boy, Ezekiel must have been made of some pretty good stuff to take on an assignment like that. Anyway, in considering your question, I was thinking of Israel's past, their leaders, and mindset. They have always been a stiff necked people, and other than some good responses to God's desires, they ran after the idols of the Nations around them. I think, that's what bothers me the most about Israel. These idols couldn't speak, hear, or help them. In time of trouble, they would remember Elohim, and go crying to Him for help.

To fast forward to the time period that you're referring to, they haven't changed. I believe that they always thought they were doing the right thing, the problem was and still is, they weren't thinking what God might think of their practices.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Chopper,

I've been away for a while , but I had a real desire to engage again and could think of no better place than this.

I think I see a trend here. I honestly had never thought of this before, but just a while back it came up as a question in my mind.

While I had never questioned it before, I had always looked on the Pharisee's as intentionally doing wrong - in a round about way. I mean, they always look so evil in the movies and all.......lol

Seriously though, it really hit me that their conduct was simply just because of what had been handed down through the generations. It was a learned behavior/understanding - not a God centered one - even though they thought they were serving God.

 

[Eugene]

The Pharisee's believed they were doing wrong in what they said and did?

As in, did they make a conscience decision, knowing full well they were going against God, in what they did - which elicited so many of Jesus' words against them?

I'm not talking about any one thing they did specifically. We know, in hind sight - and from Jesus' teachings - that they were doing things wrong. But did they at the time?

Brother Nathan, God had given Israel provision in the offering at the altar representing Christ.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Consider the offense of Aaron and Moses in that they were denied even going into the blessings of overcoming elect into Canaan.
Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

A sin unto death? but this did not separate Moses from God; we later see him with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration in Mat 17:1-3.
Deut 32:50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
Deut 32:51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

 

[Sparkey]

For a number of reasons my response will be limited to a series of links.
Take a look, if you would, one at a time.

The first link is called, "What were the 400 years of silence?" and the answer is provided by the folks at "GotQuestions.org"

I especially liked one paragraph (if I absolutely had to choose one, that is):​

The 400 years of silence refers to the time between the Old Testament and New Testaments, during which God did not speak to the Jewish people. The 400 years of silence began with the warning that closed the Old Testament: “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse" (Malachi 4:5-6) and ended with the coming of John the Baptist, the Messiah’s forerunner.

The actual text is worth reading. But I'm on to the next point. How about a picture? Is it still worth 1,000 words?

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, you caught me. It isn't a picture because it would not fit (here).
Here's the link: Old Testament vs Secular Historical Timeline << --- click to go to TimeLine

(hosted and provided by the folks at: MILLINGTON UNITED METHODIST CHURCH)​

Remember it's the PURPLE that designates Biblical events. Just check for anything prior to the birth of Jesus.

"Was Jesus actually born in 5 BC?!?" you may ask. Nevermind that now. Back to topic and, "Don't worry the gnat, get to the camel." -> God was silent 400 years!

​

 

[reba]

People today involved in the "church" some are just plain ol evil ,, some make mistakes, some strive to honor God.. I bet it was the same then...

 

[Nathan]

People today involved in the "church" some are just plain ol evil ,, some make mistakes, some strive to honor God.. I bet it was the same then...

I bet your right. In fact, I bet it's happened through out history.

But the next logical step is to question if the people following the Pharisee's leadership thought they were doing right? I think the answer to that would obvious. But it's interesting to think about.

 

[Sparkey]

We can see that the Israelites were troubled. Having set the stage, let me quickly give my opinion about the Pharisees.

IMO: They were thinking along these lines:​

Fair_U_See1: "Hmmmm.... There's something wrong, guys!"
Phar_U_See2: "No kidding. God is more than strangely silent for so long."
Fair_U_See1: "What do you think is happening?"
Phar_U_See2: "It must be us. We are indeed a stubborn and rebellious people. It is as God has declared."​

____________________________

Their reasoning continued, "It must be man, God is never to blame."
It must be sin! Let's repent and live upright lives. That way we will become so holy that God will have to respond to our efforts. He can not lie and He is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. What he promised Moses will be seen by our generation. We can force God to keep His part of the agreement simply by keeping our end of the deal.

They were looking for a Prophet who would lead Israel into the place God had told them about. They were looking for a Messiah. Glory would be theirs. This is the origin of the thought, "Get away for me, for I am holier than thou." (They actually said that.) Right after their ritual cleansing and purification rites. The Pharisees were going to keep the law down to the nth degree and that would compel God to return to the temple. It was man's sin that prevented G-d from doing what He promised. They were so holy they would not even speak the name or title of G-d. Woo-de-who? Woo-de-me!

Jesus taught that we are to, "Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees." Matthew 16:12 and the disciples understood he wasn't talking about breadmaking but instead the teachings of the Pharisees (proud men who thought they were better, holier and more righteous than others) and Saducees ('Sad_U_See,' who taught there was no resurrection).

Consider the example of the Pharisee who prayed (to himself!) found in Luke 18:11-13 (ESV), right?
Jesus praised the humility of the tax-collector and said he was more righteous than the religious leader. Why? “Because everyone that exalts himself will be humiliated, but he that humbles himself will be exalted.” Luke 18:14

More stuff to think about:

• The Pharisees liked the best seats in the assemblies. They wanted to attract attention to themselves and show how 'special' they were to God and man.
• Their ways made things harder for the common man. Their laws were based on their own traditions and went further than God required. For instance, the law commanded Rest on the Sabbath, but they took it to the extreme. They were 'helping' God (or so they thought) because they thought that the LAW didn't give enough information. So they were filling in the details -- but Jesus corrected them.
• Jesus understood and obeyed God's LAW but didn't follow the rules and regulations of the Pharisees (traditions of men).

There's more, of course. David E. Pratt, the author of the blog found in my next link (below), began preaching the gospel of Christ full-time in 1974. Since that time he has worked with independent, non-denominational churches of Christ in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and Round Lake Beach, Illinois. He and his wife Karen have three married children and a covey of grandchildren.

Are You a Pharisee?
Whom Would Jesus Really Oppose Today? by Christian blogger, David E. Pratt

​

 

[Anto9us]

No doubt Pharisees "had a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge"

as for the disciples finally understanding about the LEAVEN not being physical, that wasn't until Jesus got it through their heads that He was Lord over PHYSICAL BREAD too - by reminding them they picked up 12 basketsful of leftovers when He fed the Five Thousand, and seven basketsful when He fed the four thousand

they finally realized He was being metaphorical about the DOCTRINE of the Pharisees, not actual yeast and bread

so even the disciples who walked with Him sometimes had trouble with the "literal or metaphorical?" issue, as we do today, even though the Holy Spirit has since come to GUIDE US INTO ALL TRUTH -- SOMETIMES FOR US TOO, THE ZEAL MAY OVERSHADOW THE KNOWLEDGE -- and we may not let ourselves be guided aright

and as we point out "those BAD PHARISEES" of the past, well, fingers pointing back at ourselves, ya know

 

[Chopper]

However this thread turns out, it's good to have you back. Your interest in Jewish goings on is one of my favorite subjects. All ready, you appear to be a very interesting Brother. I hope to learn some nuggets of Truth from you.

 

[BCsenior]

The Pharisee's believed they were doing wrong in what they said and did?
As in, did they make a conscience decision, knowing full well they were going against God, in what they did - which elicited so many of Jesus' words against them?
I'm not talking about any one thing they did specifically. We know, in hind sight - and from Jesus' teachings - that they were doing things wrong. But did they at the time?

IMO, sometimes YES, sometimes NO.
On the YES side, they did not want to relinquish their power, authority, prestige, jobs even.
Same with many of today's pastors and their employees.
Many church leaders, then and now, have been deceived into all kinds of error.
Many church leaders, then and now, HOPE they'll make it through in the end.

 

[Atonement]

A very interesting thread to read..

 

[Chopper]

IMO, sometimes YES, sometimes NO.
On the YES side, they did not want to relinquish their power, authority, prestige, jobs even.
Same with many of today's pastors and their employees.
Many church leaders, then and now, have been deceived into all kinds of error.
Many church leaders, then and now, HOPE they'll make it through in the end.

Some will, and some won't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Pharisee's believed they were doing wrong in what they said and did?

As in, did they make a conscience decision, knowing full well they were going against God, in what they did - which elicited so many of Jesus' words against them?

According to Jesus, 'yes', they knew. They committed the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. They saw absolute convincing truth that Jesus was the Messiah by the miracles he did via the Holy Spirit, yet they turned away in unbelief anyway, assigning the work of the Holy Spirit to that of Beelzebul:

"22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

31“Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:22-24, 31-32 NASB bold mine bold mine)

John says those who reject the testimony of the Spirit are liars (1 John 5: NASB). They know the truth by the testimony of the Holy Spirit sent into the world, yet they reject it.

"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:7,10 NASB)

Calling the Holy Spirit a liar by not believing what He says about Jesus is in effect assigning his work to that of a lying spirit. The Pharisees did that. They knew Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[Chopper]

According to Jesus, 'yes', they knew. They committed the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. They saw absolute convincing truth that Jesus was the Messiah by the miracles he did via the Holy Spirit, yet they turned away in unbelief anyway, assigning the work of the Holy Spirit to that of Beelzebul:

"22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

31“Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:22-24, 31-32 NASB bold mine bold mine)

John says those who reject the testimony of the Spirit are liars (1 John 5: NASB). They know the truth by the testimony of the Holy Spirit sent into the world, yet they reject it.

"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:7,10 NASB)

Calling the Holy Spirit a liar by not believing what He says about Jesus is in effect assigning his work to that of a lying spirit. The Pharisees did that. They knew Jesus was the Messiah.

You are absolutely right Jethro. Thank you for always speaking Truth.

 

[Nathan]

According to Jesus, 'yes', they knew. They committed the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. They saw absolute convincing truth that Jesus was the Messiah by the miracles he did via the Holy Spirit, yet they turned away in unbelief anyway, assigning the work of the Holy Spirit to that of Beelzebul:

"22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

31“Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:22-24, 31-32 NASB bold mine bold mine)

John says those who reject the testimony of the Spirit are liars (1 John 5: NASB). They know the truth by the testimony of the Holy Spirit sent into the world, yet they reject it.

"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:7,10 NASB)

Calling the Holy Spirit a liar by not believing what He says about Jesus is in effect assigning his work to that of a lying spirit. The Pharisees did that. They knew Jesus was the Messiah.

You said they knew Jesus was the Messiah. Do you really think they did, or like me think they should have known? I cannot find where they ever thought He was the Messiah. In fact, they were upset when He would refer to such things. "Seemingly" being righteous in their thoughts.

It's not a question of if they were wrong. We all know they were wrong. Did they know they were doing wrong things, as in completely off track. I'm not sure how it was then really. If they did not have the Spirit dwelling in them then there would be no conviction of sin. Like it is with believers now days.

The Spirit had not been poured out yet so there was no conviction like there is today, or the days after Pentecost. In those days, the years leading up to the coming of Jesus, the Spirit was giving to certain men for certain tasks.