Does God use evil for His purposes?

[GMS]

A Thorn in the Flesh 2nd Corinthians 12:7-9:

7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!

8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

On another thread, it was brought up that Paul’s “thorn†was demonic in nature. If this was the case, does that mean God uses evil, specifically demons, to keep us in line?
Certainly, Christians are not allowed (if they had the power) to use evil spirits, evil governments, the weather or illnesses to control the fellow believer, but what about God?
GMS

 

[Heidi]

A Thorn in the Flesh 2nd Corinthians 12:7-9:

7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!

8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

On another thread, it was brought up that Paul’s “thorn†was demonic in nature. If this was the case, does that mean God uses evil, specifically demons, to keep us in line?
Certainly, Christians are not allowed (if they had the power) to use evil spirits, evil governments, the weather or illnesses to control the fellow believer, but what about God?
GMS

We humans are a hopeless lot. We were all born in sin which only Jesus can take away. Even with sin, we have so much pride that we boast about our "goodness" whenever we get the chance. So if we were sinless, our boasting would increase to astronomical porportions.

So God doesn't take away all sin because then we would be as sinless as God is and thinkw e know as much as he does. And that's precisely why God told Paul that he would leave the thorn so that Paul would not become conceited. Only God knows our hearts and minds and what we can bear.

 

[Bubba]

Heidi,
I think you ae missing a huge point: "there was given me a thorn in the flesh". It wasn't that Paul was left with sin, he was given a "thorn" from God.
Blessings, Bubba

 

[Guest]

Opps... I guess that teaches me that I should read all the posts before I start posting. I started a thread on the "thorn of the flesh" as well.

I will repost here what I started somewhere else.

2 Cor. 12:7-10 wrote:
7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

From another thread, a discussion started about the Thorn in the Flesh that Paul suffered from. Rather than wanting the other thread being "hijacked" - I started this thread to discuss the different possibilities.

As I stated in the other post, I am not sure that it is relevant what exactly the 'thorn' is, but rather how Paul handled it.

The purpose of the 'thorn' was so that Paul would not exalt himself due the magnitude of the revelations Paul was receiving from the Lord.

Verse 10 says that Paul was content with weakness, with insults, with distress, and persection. Is the messenger of Satan referring to the actual "thorn" or to the oppression Paul faced from the "thorn".

I do not believe that the "thorn" is a sinful behavior, because Paul is content with the thorn. I do not believe that Paul would be saying that he is content with sin.

Verse 9 says that Paul would rather boast about his weakness, so that he might boast in the Lord - for when we are weak, the Lord is strong. I do not see that we are to boast about our sin.

As a side note, I sometime shudder at celeberty testimonies that make their life before Christ sound "better".

While we can have speculations as to what the 'thorn' was. Let us not get so consumed to try to figure it out that wes and miss the point - that we are to rely on the Lord for our strength - that in our weakness, His strength is revealed - that we are to boast in the Lord not in ourselves.

 

[Drew]

I think that God can and does use evil (including evil spirits) to acccomplish his purposes. I believe that the Scriptures support this even though it seems difficult to accept.

If someone asked me to explain how I make sense of the proposition that God uses evil, my answer would be "He has no choice".

That statement should stir up the beehive, I would think.....

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,
I think you ae missing a huge point: "there was given me a thorn in the flesh". It wasn't that Paul was left with sin, he was given a "thorn" from God.
Blessings, Bubba

Sorry, but Paul calls his thorn, "a messenger from Satan." So you are in error. ;-) God left it in so that paul would not become conceited. The bible is as easy as pie to udnerstand if humans just left it alone instead of putting their own slant on it. :roll:

 

[lovely]

Hi everyone.

I agree with Alone that we should focus on Paul's reaction to his thorn.

To respond to the op, concerning God's use of evil, I think God has the motive, and view, to use whatever He desires. He understands what will further His plan, His glory, and what will ultimately be best for His children. I do not think He desires to control us, but rather protect us from evil, and grow us close to Him...conform us to His image. It is better for evil to be done to us, rather than for us to do evil, because one draws us nearer (if we react properly), and the other separates. As far as brother and sisters in Christ using evil, we are not able to because we do not have the pure love motive that God has, or the perspective. We are not selfless, in a true sense, apart from Him, and our use of evil would simply be doing evil to one another. We do not have the ability to judge what will best grow our bothers and sisters apart from sound, Bible-based, church discipline. This practice protects the church, and sometimes the believer, but this is not the practice of evil at all. God points us to love, and asks us to practice good...maybe when we can get that down we can learn His knack for using the twisted and distorted things to make the paths of His children straight and clear. :


The Lord bless all of you today.

 

[Bubba]

Sorry, but Paul calls his thorn, "a messenger from Satan." So you are in error. ;-) God left it in so that paul would not become conceited. The bible is as easy as pie to udnerstand if humans just left it alone instead of putting their own slant on it. :roll:

Sorry, but the Scripture says: "for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!"

Do you really believe that Satan would want Paul to not exalt himself? God gave him the "thorn" Satan was the instrument.
Bubba

 

[th1bill]

This was posted by me on another forum and I post it here to explain the error of the question.

....Does evil exist and did God create everything that was created?
....We've all seen this ploy used and the answer to did God create everything that exists is, of course, yes! Therefore the real question is does evil exist and the answer is a resounding no!
....To prove your case is the issue so begin with does cold exist and you will, no doubt, receive a very strong yes as the reply, and of course it does not exist! 'Cold' is the term invented or coined, not created, by men to exemplify the absence of heat.
....Does darkness exist? Of course it does not exist, it is the term used by man to exemplify the absence of light.
....Neither does evil exist! Evil is the term invented by men to express the absence of God in men's hearts.
....DO NOT give credit for this! The gentleman that the atheist loves to taught as one of their greatest minds, Albert Einstein, is the author and I am just the student.

 

[Heidi]

This was posted by me on another forum and I post it here to explain the error of the question.

....Does evil exist and did God create everything that was created?
....We've all seen this ploy used and the answer to did God create everything that exists is, of course, yes! Therefore the real question is does evil exist and the answer is a resounding no!
....To prove your case is the issue so begin with does cold exist and you will, no doubt, receive a very strong yes as the reply, and of course it does not exist! 'Cold' is the term invented or coined, not created, by men to exemplify the absence of heat.
....Does darkness exist? Of course it does not exist, it is the term used by man to exemplify the absence of light.
....Neither does evil exist! Evil is the term invented by men to express the absence of God in men's hearts.
....DO NOT give credit for this! The gentleman that the atheist loves to taught as one of their greatest minds, Albert Einstein, is the author and I am just the student.

Sorry friend, but you really need to read the bible and look at the state of the world to see that evil absolutely exists! Evil is a term used by God in the bible to describe the sinful and selfish nature of man. So no, man didn't make up the term evil, God did. There can be no good without evil. God uses Satan to show what life is like without God and what God will do to those who reject him.

 

[GMS]

The ultimate act of evil for the good: article by Ernest Martin;

The crucifixion of Christ (God’s own Son) was the greatest evil that had been planned within the foreknowledge of God the Father. And the exact detail of the crucifixion was prophesied beforehand and was an evil planned by God. Indeed, we are told in the Bible that God not only creates good that he dispenses to any in the universe as he pleases, but he also creates evil and uses it in the best way he knows in order to accomplish his purposes. God says: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7). Yes, God creates evil. See all of Isaiah 54:16 and Amos 3:6 for two of the many scriptures that show that God creates and uses EVIL in any way he wants.

Let us understand one thing clearly, however. In the Bible "evil" and "sin" are two different things. In no way does God ever ‘‘sin’’ because ‘‘sin is the transgression of law’’ (I John 3:4) and since it is God who is solely responsible for the creation and allowance of all laws, then all God has to do is to change any law (even one that he has legislated as being the most holy) and he can do just the opposite of what he once commanded and without the slightest "sin" being attached to his character. But "evil" is something different. It is a relative term that simply signifies actions that we consider as "bad things." While all sin is "bad" (or evil), not all bad things that God allows to happen are "sin." Evil in the Bible can be described by such words as calamity, misery, woe, hurt, wickedness, and of course bad.

 

[Drew]

This was posted by me on another forum and I post it here to explain the error of the question.

....Does evil exist and did God create everything that was created?
....We've all seen this ploy used and the answer to did God create everything that exists is, of course, yes! Therefore the real question is does evil exist and the answer is a resounding no!
....To prove your case is the issue so begin with does cold exist and you will, no doubt, receive a very strong yes as the reply, and of course it does not exist! 'Cold' is the term invented or coined, not created, by men to exemplify the absence of heat.
....Does darkness exist? Of course it does not exist, it is the term used by man to exemplify the absence of light.
....Neither does evil exist! Evil is the term invented by men to express the absence of God in men's hearts.
....DO NOT give credit for this! The gentleman that the atheist loves to taught as one of their greatest minds, Albert Einstein, is the author and I am just the student.

From 1 Samuel 18:

Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house...

I find this text hard to reconcile with your position (as I understand it) about how "evil is the absence of God". The spirit that God sent to Saul is a real thing. We know that this spirit is "evil". The characteristics of the spirit cannot be expressed as the "absence of God" - the spirit has to have some actual "functional content" of some kind in order to accomplish anything at all in the world.

A spirit whose "evil-ness" is merely the absence of God is an entity that is "empty" - without content in respect to "being evil". And yet the spirit does accomplish something - it pesters Saul. So the spirit has real characteristics.

If I say that the spirit is evil and that the spirit acts in the world presumably in an "evil" way, I cannot say that the spirit's "evil-ness" is the absence of God. Why? Because you say effectively nothing about the spirit when you describe it this way. And presumaply the writer of the 1 Samuel text intends to say something about this spirit.

I don't think we can make this "evil is the absence of God" argument work. We are kind of forced to believe that this "evil" spirit influenced Saul to rave. And the absence of something cannot really cause anything to take place in the world.

 

[Drew]

I think that my argument in my previous post is probably wrong. One can imagine how an entity that has complete absence of heat can have effects in the real world. If we bring a stone at absolute zero next to glass of water, the water will start to cool down - the absence of heat has caused an effect in the real world.

I still think that the conclusion is right even if the argument is wonky. I would re-argue as follows:

1. A spirit is an agent - a thing that acts in the world. Or at least the spirit in 1 Samuel 18 obviously acts.

2. An "evil" spirit must be an agent that acts in a manner that can be described as "evil".

3. Therefore the word "evil" does indeed describe something that is "real" in more than an "absence of God" sense. This is because one cannot describe actions "negatively" - as the absence of something. An action is, by conceptual necessity, a "positive" really existent thing.

4. In order for the world to change in some way, an agent of some sort has to "act". So to make Saul rave, the evil spirit had to do something - and something evil.

5. I cannot see how an active agent in the world can be described only in terms of what characteristics or behaviours are absent from it.

However, this is a lot more complicated than I initially thought and I would not be shocked if there is something wrong with the above.

 

[jgredline]

Good morning folks..

This discussion can go in many different directions and I see many opinions here...I will throw in mine...I will only be discussing The thorn in the flesh for now....

The Thorn in the Flesh
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.†Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I just had my morning breakfast with a friend of mine who teaches theology at a Christian university...He is of the belief that this thorn is his poor eye sight....I have heard this teaching before and studied it and makes allot of sense...I could be swayed this way....

I have heard it said that the thorn is sin of the flesh....That Paul is making a distinction between the flesh and the spirit.....This I believe is a false view because Paul would never and he never did make peace with sin....

The third most common view and it is the one I hold to is that he was continually demon oppressed...Paul makes it clear that it was a messenger from Satan.....So who are Satans messengers? His demons....What better way to keep a person humble than to be at the constant mercy of God....
Paul had great discernment as is obvious by the exorcisms he performed and it only makes sense that Paul was the biggest target of Satan....By this time Satan was defeated at the cross and ''nobody'' was making more of a difference that Paul....Paul also recognized in this passage that God is the one in control of these demonic forces and this passage also affirms that God sometimes and often will answer NO to a prayer request...Paul humbly accepted this NO because he knew this life was temporal...


I am a believer and this is my opinion that as soon as one becomes born again, this person is assigned a demon by Satan or his generals..The bible does speak of an established government with in the angelic community....There is always it seems that Grace period of time where everything is perfect in the life of a new born again believer and then it seems for many that all hell breaks loose....
I believe this is a time of testing like Jesus was after his baptism...
I also believe that there are also two of Gods angels assigned for every new believer to watch over him/her....Is this scripture...No...but it makes sense to me....

I know that in my own life I am often oppressed and it drives me to my knees literally....Demon oppression is very much alive and real as is demon possession in the case of a non believer...But for the believer, if one is living a very cosey life and everything is hunky dorie then the demon would have no reason to trouble or bother you because you are obviously not doing anything for the kingdom of God.....But in saying this God also knows our limits to how much we can handle and will not push us passed that edge...

Now, I am not dogmatic in my belief and am open to change my views with some good sound arguments....

 

[golfjack]

reply

The question is, does Satan have dominion over believers?

The answer is no. We are talking about the riches of our inheritence in Christ. The Bible says we have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of God's dear Son ( Coi. 1:13). Therefore, our inheritence includes the fact that the works of darkness have no legal authority or dominion over us.

Jesus is the only One who is to have dominion over us. He is the one who rules us, not only corporrately as the Body of Christ, but individually as well. Why can't Satan lord it over believers? Because he's not our lord, and he's been put under our feet and the Head of the Church, not Satan.

For example, if symptoms of distress and deficency of any kind from the enemy try to attack my body or mind, I just say, Oh, no you don't, Satan. You can't put that on me. Jesus has dominion over me. Jesus is My Healer and my Deliverer. He is not the destroyer.

Jesus is the life-giver, and He is my Lord. Satan, you are not my lord, and you can't triumph over me. I refuse to accept or permit anything that belongs to you. You can't bring depression, oppression, sickness, or desease. I refuswe to permit it in Jesus' Name.

I believe many Christian are defeated in their lives because they don't know who they are in Christ. The devil has free reign in many lives because they act defeated and run around like whipped puppies.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Jack
I agree with what you have said...We absolutely have victory in Jesus Christ and while its true we do not have to give in to his attacks, the fact is, the evil one still attacks us which is why eph 6:10 is a crucial part of the believers life...

 

[Guest]

Sorry, but Paul calls his thorn, "a messenger from Satan." So you are in error. ;-) God left it in so that paul would not become conceited. The bible is as easy as pie to udnerstand if humans just left it alone instead of putting their own slant on it. :roll:

Heidi -

If the "thorn in the flesh" is "sin" - are you suggesting that when Paul says he is boastful about his weakness or when Paul says that he is content in his weakness, that Paul is in fact saying that he is boasting and content with sin?

 

[Bubba]

This is part of a sermon done by John Piper, he brings up a interesting perspective about the "Fall" of Adam:

"First off, I quote Dr. W. Gary Crampton: “It is necessary to postulate that if Adam had successfully passed his probation in the Garden (that is, the covenant of works), he would have been confirmed by God in positive righteousness. He would have passed from the state of being posse pecarre (possible to sin) to the state of non posse pecarre (not possible to sin). Adam’s righteousness, then, would have been imputed to all of his descendants (that is, the entire human race). And all mankind would have gratefully looked to him, not Christ, as Savior. For all eternity, God would then share His glory with His creature: Adam. Ironically, the obedience of Adam would have led to idolatry. Therefore, that alternative world is logically impossible.â€Â

The Fall is necessary so that the Father might be glorified in the redeeming work of His Son on the cross. If we were to forever look to Adam in gratitude, we would never be satisfied because God created us to give Him glory and enjoy Him forever. Without the Fall, Man cannot accomplish this purpose.

And secondly, I quote Jonathan Edwards: “So evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which he made the world; because the creature’s happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of his love. And if the knowledge of him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect.â€Â

The Fall is necessary so that we might know both the saving love of God in sending Christ to die for all who would repent and believe and the holiness of His hatred for sin. If we don’t know both of these, we do not know both sides of God’s holiness, and our joy is incomplete.

So we see that the Fall is indeed “fortunate†as the Puritans used to say, for only because of the Fall did we receive the greatest knowledge of God and did God receive the greatest glory, all accomplished in His Son, Jesus Christ."

Blessings, Bubba

 

[Rick W]

God used the unbeliever to crucify Christ. Or He allowed the unbeliever to do so.
Either way the result was the same... a devine work was done. Yet, that didn't mean the high priests and their adherants were guiltless. They crucified an innocent man to protect their status, their glory among men.

God also used the Assyrians to chasten Israel.

And Pharaoh, a vessel of wrath, He used to show His power.

 

[Rick W]

So we see that the Fall is indeed “fortunate†as the Puritans used to say, for only because of the Fall did we receive the greatest knowledge of God and did God receive the greatest glory, all accomplished in His Son, Jesus Christ."

Adam was already with God before the fall. A lot of suffering could have been averted had the Fall not occured. We could have been with God right from the start, from birth, had it not been for the sinful nature of man.

I don't agree the Fall was a necessary act. Even the crucifiction of Christ would not have been necessary for we would have been in God's presence in the first place. Sure, the work done on the cross was good, God's grace and mercy are good. But man already knew "the greatest knowledge of God", manb was with God and God will always be glorified as He is in Heaven through the heavenly creatures that have been there from the beginning.

It's "reconciliation". It's not that man hadn't been with God but that man now must get back to God because of sin... to be bought back into His presence through Jesus Christ our Savior. As an analogy I don't see how a divorce can be good so the two may be reconciled. Yet, the fact that the two get back together is a good thing, forgiveness is a good thing.

The point is it's all about getting back to where man was before, sinless and blameless. Man was already there.

Thinking about Adam in such a way leads one toward the "Adam-God" doctrine displayed in the beginnings of Mormonism which glorifies Adam and what he had done.