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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Drew
Member
My present view is the Fall was not a necessary act, although this is a very unconsidered opinion and I am willing to go where the Scriptural evidence leads.Bubba said:
The Revelation 13:8 text does indeed seem to suggest that the fall had to happen.
However, we need to confront Matthew 26:39:
"And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will"
Jesus believes it is possible that He will be spared the cross.
In respect to the Matthew 26 passage, Sam Lamerson of Knox Theological Seminary writes:
"This prayer is a passage which the classical theists must deal with. It is not enough simply to say that Jesus was praying "as a man and not as God," for this will be rightly seen as a case of special pleading."
From Wikipedia:
"Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption."
In any event, while I see why Rev 13:8 creates at least the appearance of a problem for the view that the fall did not have to happen, I suspect that, as is often the case, the truth will require a little more work. Certainly, the case is not closed unless and until someone can justify Jesus' apparent lack of certainty concerning the inevitability of the Cross.
Why is Jesus uncertain about whether He needs to go to the Cross if, indeed, the "Lamb was slain from the foundation of the World"?
R
Rick W
Guest
Bubba,
Yes, there is reconciliation through Christ from the foundation of the world. Creation of all, including Adam, was the beginning of the world for in the beginning God created all there is.
One cannot view Adam's sin against God as something good for our sakes. Nor do we stand apart from Adam and his sinful nature.
Reconciliation is the key word here. Man once walked with God and that is the hope we seek in Christ, to be with God once again. Christ died on the cross to reconcile man with God who ran from God in the first place. That rebellion caused death to come into the world but God in His forgiveness and mercy gave His only begotten Son that we may once again be with Him.
If you see that verse as slain before man even entered the scene then that means what God created was corrupt when God created it which isn't the case.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
it was good
it was good
it was very good
Yes, there is reconciliation through Christ from the foundation of the world. Creation of all, including Adam, was the beginning of the world for in the beginning God created all there is.
One cannot view Adam's sin against God as something good for our sakes. Nor do we stand apart from Adam and his sinful nature.
Reconciliation is the key word here. Man once walked with God and that is the hope we seek in Christ, to be with God once again. Christ died on the cross to reconcile man with God who ran from God in the first place. That rebellion caused death to come into the world but God in His forgiveness and mercy gave His only begotten Son that we may once again be with Him.
If you see that verse as slain before man even entered the scene then that means what God created was corrupt when God created it which isn't the case.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
it was good
it was good
it was very good
R
Rick W
Guest
Must be careful how one interprets "world" which includes "inhabitants". And Adam was certainly an inhabitant.
Potluck said:
Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 (KJV)
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Proverbs 16:4 (KJV)
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Potluck,
Because I believe that God is sovereign in salvation, I do not have a problem with the implications of these verses. Now, someone who believes in freewill will not only struggle with the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, but also that the Book of Life has already been determined before the foundation of the earth. The “Fall†was predetermined as well.
Grace, Bubba
R
Rick W
Guest
bubba said:
Ah, so that's what this is all about.
So not having freewill I shouldn't be held accountable because "I was made this way".
Heard that one before.
: anyway...
Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Adam not only blamed Eve but God as well. Seems we are creatures of excuse blaming others for our actions from the foundation of the world.
Nice dodge to avoid accountability but I'm not buying into one of the oldest examples of willful pride known to man by blaming God.
You have the freewill to blame God if you like but I choose not to. That's entirely up to you.
Potluck,
I am in good company, when ever one like Paul or myself (not the I am equating myself as a Paul) talk about God’s sovereign choice we are accused of license to sin (Romans 5:20-6:1). Whenever these types of verses that I posted come up, we are talking about God’s high decrees and one must step lightly when addressing. In regards to man’s responsibility, sure, we are responsible for our sins, but God is nonetheless sovereign in our salvation, these points are not enemies to each other. In fact, man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty run throughout Scripture, it is a great mystery how they are both true, not unlike the mystery of the Trinity (God in man), but does the mystery give you the right to pass over the sovereign of God verses?
Instead of giving me a diatribe, explain the verses.
Grace, Bubba
I am in good company, when ever one like Paul or myself (not the I am equating myself as a Paul) talk about God’s sovereign choice we are accused of license to sin (Romans 5:20-6:1). Whenever these types of verses that I posted come up, we are talking about God’s high decrees and one must step lightly when addressing. In regards to man’s responsibility, sure, we are responsible for our sins, but God is nonetheless sovereign in our salvation, these points are not enemies to each other. In fact, man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty run throughout Scripture, it is a great mystery how they are both true, not unlike the mystery of the Trinity (God in man), but does the mystery give you the right to pass over the sovereign of God verses?
Instead of giving me a diatribe, explain the verses.
Grace, Bubba
R
Rick W
Guest
God IS sovreign in salvation I'll agree.
But nowhere will you find scripture that says The Fall was a divine act of God or any reference that God caused The Fall to happen other than the freewill of Adam to transgress against God, not only recieving the forbidden fruit but blaming everyone else but Satan. (well, except later on with "the devil made me do it"
) You WILL find scripture to His sovreign solution to man's sinful nature... Jesus Christ.
The bible is not about man's pursuit of God but God's pursuit of the hearts of men. I would rather Adam not have done what he did so I could be with God right from the beginning of my existance without going through the trials and tribulations of a physical and corrupt world.
Man walked with God once. But it was man who turned his back on God. We all begin on a level playing field, condemned to death by way of our sinful nature. Mostly pride... which doesn't seem to be a very popular topic anyway.
The Fall was the will of Adam (of man), the choice of rebellion. No getting around that. God does not rebel against Himself.
Question:
Do you believe God put rebellion into the heart of Satan?
But nowhere will you find scripture that says The Fall was a divine act of God or any reference that God caused The Fall to happen other than the freewill of Adam to transgress against God, not only recieving the forbidden fruit but blaming everyone else but Satan. (well, except later on with "the devil made me do it"
) You WILL find scripture to His sovreign solution to man's sinful nature... Jesus Christ. The bible is not about man's pursuit of God but God's pursuit of the hearts of men. I would rather Adam not have done what he did so I could be with God right from the beginning of my existance without going through the trials and tribulations of a physical and corrupt world.
Man walked with God once. But it was man who turned his back on God. We all begin on a level playing field, condemned to death by way of our sinful nature. Mostly pride... which doesn't seem to be a very popular topic anyway.
The Fall was the will of Adam (of man), the choice of rebellion. No getting around that. God does not rebel against Himself.
Question:
Do you believe God put rebellion into the heart of Satan?
Potluck said:
Adam and Eve were the only two humans who had freewill, but after the "Fall", the whole human race is now in bondage to Satan. In respect to the "Fall", of course God knew that they would fail or He isn't omniscient. This is why Piper wrote what he did. Remember 1 Corinthians 2:14, this is the state of man's will, until regeneration.
Grace, Bubba
Drew
Member
Hello Bubba:
Do you have an answer to my question about Jesus in regard to his belief that He might escape the cross (Matthew 26:39). It is relevant to your use of Rev 13:8 in a previous post.
If Jesus thought it was possible that He might not need to go to the cross, then how does Rev 13:8 really establish that He was slain "from the foundation of the world"?
Do you have an answer to my question about Jesus in regard to his belief that He might escape the cross (Matthew 26:39). It is relevant to your use of Rev 13:8 in a previous post.
If Jesus thought it was possible that He might not need to go to the cross, then how does Rev 13:8 really establish that He was slain "from the foundation of the world"?
R
Rick W
Guest
I can add to that.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
I wouldn't say though that man doesn't have freewill altogether. I do have an inherent conscience to follow certain rules adopted by the society I live in, rules made by man. Might have something to do with being made in God's image. Dunno.
Can I save myself? No, of course not. Do I have freewill to accept Christ into my life? Scripture says seek and ye will find, knock and the door will opened unto you. Yet, can I make the decision to "knock" without divine influence? From my experience of salvation I'd have to say no since I wasn't looking for God in the first place. And I wasn't an active anti-christian advocate either. Heck, I could care less about any religion or what "religious" people were doing or thinking anyway.
Salvation and freewill boil down to the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism. But I can't help but wonder that somewhere down the road the two can or will be reconciled since scripture does provide evidence for both sides.
I believe though that if one seeks earnestly and with the heart in the right place then the door will be opened. But again, does that mean the desire must first come from God? In my case yes though immediately after that instant I wasn't so much seeking Him but rather had a very strong desire to know who this man was they call Christ.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
I wouldn't say though that man doesn't have freewill altogether. I do have an inherent conscience to follow certain rules adopted by the society I live in, rules made by man. Might have something to do with being made in God's image. Dunno.
Can I save myself? No, of course not. Do I have freewill to accept Christ into my life? Scripture says seek and ye will find, knock and the door will opened unto you. Yet, can I make the decision to "knock" without divine influence? From my experience of salvation I'd have to say no since I wasn't looking for God in the first place. And I wasn't an active anti-christian advocate either. Heck, I could care less about any religion or what "religious" people were doing or thinking anyway.
Salvation and freewill boil down to the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism. But I can't help but wonder that somewhere down the road the two can or will be reconciled since scripture does provide evidence for both sides.
I believe though that if one seeks earnestly and with the heart in the right place then the door will be opened. But again, does that mean the desire must first come from God? In my case yes though immediately after that instant I wasn't so much seeking Him but rather had a very strong desire to know who this man was they call Christ.
Drew said:
Drew,
I posted this on a different thread in regards to the impeccability of Christ:
The Impeccability of the Lord Jesus Christ
Mark 1:12-13
by John A. Kohler, III
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The purpose of the temptation of the Lord Jesus Christ was not to determine whether or not He would sin, but to demonstrate the fact that He would not and could not sin.
I. God cannot be tempted (Jas. 1:13-14).
A. He does not directly or immediately tempt or entice human beings to sin.
B. He Himself cannot be tempted from within His own divine nature.
II. God Incarnate could be and often was tempted (Mat. 4:1-11; 26:36-44; Lk. 22:28,39-46; Heb. 2:16-18; 4:14-16).
A. He suffered being tempted or enticed to sin (Heb. 2:18).
B. He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet He had no sin nature as we do (Heb. 4:15).
C. Since He had no sin nature within (Lk. 1:35; I Jn. 3:5), He had to be tempted totally from without.
III. God Incarnate was able not to sin because He was not able to sin.
A. In His divine nature, He was not able to be tempted or to sin. In His human nature, He was able to be tempted and to sin. Since His divine nature and human nature were united in one Person, His divine nature controlled His human nature. Before the Fall, Adam had a sinless human nature, but he did not have a divine nature that would control his human nature.
B. The fact that He was not able to sin does not mean that He was not able, in His human nature, to be tempted to sin. Just because something is an utter impossibility does not mean that it cannot be hardily attempted.
C. The immutability of Christ proves His impeccability (Heb. 1:12; 13:8). If He was able to sin while He was here on earth, then He was able to sin before He came to earth, and He is able to sin now that He has left the earth.
D. The omnipotence of Christ proves His impeccability (Mat. 28:18). His human nature was not omnipotent and was, therefore, temptable and peccable, but His human nature was controlled by His omnipotent divine nature, which was neither temptable nor peccable.
E. The omniscience of Christ proves His impeccability (Jn. 2:25). Since He had a controlling, omniscient divine nature, He was not able to be deceived or tricked into sinning and could clearly see the consequences of sin.
F. The deity of Christ proves His impeccability (Jn. 1:1). If He had been a man only, then He could have sinned, but He was the God-man.
G. The authority of Christ proves His impeccability (Jn. 10:18). Since He had authority over life and death, surely He had authority over sin.
H. The absolute sovereignty of God proves Christ’s impeccability (Isa. 46:9-10). In eternity past, God had not only decreed as a part of His eternal plan that Jesus would be tempted, but that He would be victorious over temptation. He had also decreed Christ’s crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, enthronement, second coming, Millennial reign, and eternal glory. If Jesus could have sinned, it would have totally ruined God’s plan for the ages. Both God the Father (Acts 15:10; I Cor. 10:9; Heb. 3:9) and God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:9) were tempted from without by men. Yet, no one suggests that they were able to sin. Why should anyone believe, then, that God the Son was able to sin just because He was able to be tempted?
Take some time and think about comment H. I personally believe as a man, Jesus was horrified at the thought that He was going take upon the wrath of God and be severed from the relationship He had with the Father since eternity and the temptation was to seek another way. We know the outcome; He did not succumb to this temptation. Yet, much about this whole impeccability verses peccabilty of Jesus is beyond our understanding, but we try nonetheless.
Regardless of our total ability to understand how something could be, we still must deal with the text and Rev. 13:8 and 17:8 do make statements that occurred before the foundation of the earth. Yet, we must stay true to the author’s intent even though we can’t fathom it’s depths.
Blessings, Bubba
G
Guest
Guest
Bubba said:
Exactly right... I just posted something similar on another thread. Adam and Eve are the only 2 to have been created with a Free Will.
G
Guest
Guest
Potluck said:
I think I shared this before. One of my college professors put it this way:
Have you ever stood in the middle of a train track? When you look to your left and right you see two seperate train rails. Think of one as Calvinism and the other as Arminianism.
Both operate independent of each other - running parrallel with eath other.
Now - look down the track to the horizon where the sky meets the eart.
What do the train tracks look like? It appers that they connect, touching each other.
It is there, on the horizon where God is. Where the two connect.