[_ Old Earth _] Easter eggs

[Vaccine]

Welcome!Blessings in the name of our Lord and Savior!

I don't want to mislead anyone, this thread is not about Easter or eggs specifically. Rather, it is about the little treasures I've found in the scriptures. Not to be confused with prophecy.
For example, Job 38:16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea". A submarine called "alvin" journeyed to the bottom of the ocean less than 60 years ago, where it "discovered" something written thousands of years ago, springs coming from the bottom of the ocean.
Get the idea? Kinda like the behemouths. Has anyone else found any?

 

[Barbarian]

Only, they aren't springs. They are more like geysers, an entirely different thing.

Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, which people see as ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn. [St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)]

 

[Vaccine]

Well, thanks anyway.


Anyway, here is another easter egg:

Genesis 6:3 "..In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years."

Science has learned a bit about how we age and I think it is relavent to that verse. Each cell in our bodies can keep track of every cell division it has gone through but counting the telomeres, the red things sticking out at the ends of chromosomes. It loses some telomeric DNA with each division, and ticks down like a clock. Each cell is capable of on average 50-60 divisions before the telomeres run out (get too short). When the telomeres at the ends of are too short they self sterilize (stop dividing), or it will lead to genetic instability, but basically it boils down to: we age. The clock ticks down, not up, which means we can't expect to live beyond 120.

 

[Sparkey]

Well, thanks anyway.

Lol - Barbarian? May I present Vaccine. Vac? Barb.

Barbarian, if anything, is not "screwloose" but rather (and in my opinion only) the 'screws' are tightened down in an overly-tight manner but yet not 'stripped'; like the hatches that are battened down prior to a storm. As in, "Batten down the hatches, Matey, 'dar a storm be brewin'"

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[Vaccine]

LOL thanks Sparrow

I was a bit confused since I thought Gen 1:24 could be considered an easter egg?

Another one:
Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and Earth will pass away".

 

[Vaccine]

I thought I'd add another verse I was recently reacquainted with:

All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again. -Ecc 1:7


I suppose whoever wrote those words could have figured out all streams flow into the sea, very impressive knowledge for back then.

Nils Wallerius - Swedish - between 1739 - 1747 A.D.. is credited with discovering evaporation. But whoever wrote Ecclesiastes seemed to have knowledge of evaporation since he wrote "there they return again".

 

[Sparkey]

There are two kinds of desire, the desire of the bellywhich may be filled...
and the desire of the eye which is never full

May ye be satisfied on the path upon which your feet are found.
Let your feet be found on the path that leads to your desire fully filled. It is He who desires to answer exceedingly abundantly

And those two words? They be another egg, one set in place from the beginning of the ages and from the foundations.

 

[Vaccine]

I thought I'd add a few more since someone named Sam Harris made this claim:
"He also rejects the claim that the Bible was inspired by an omniscient god. He insists that if that were the case, the book could "make specific, falsifiable predictions about human events". Instead, he notes, the Bible "does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century"

Here is the first recorded use of anaesthesia:

"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof" Genesis 2:21

Another interesting fact is ribs regenerate, "Although all bones can repair themselves, ribs can regenerate themselves." Keith L. Moore and Arthur F. Dalley, Clinically Oriented Anatomy, 4th ed. (Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 1999), p. 64.

WIP had mentioned in another thread that before we had genetic evidence incest was bad, the bible forbid it in Lev 20:19
“If a man takes his sister, a daughter of his father or a daughter of his mother, and sees her nakedness, and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace, and they shall be cut off in the sight of the children of their people. He has uncovered his sister's nakedness, and he shall bear his iniquity. 18 If a man lies with a woman during her menstrual period and uncovers her nakedness, he has made naked her fountain, and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from among their people. 19 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister or of your father's sister, for that is to make naked one's relative; they shall bear their iniquity." Lev 20:19


If you were sent to a hospital during the Crimean War (1853-1863):
"Mortality rates in the armies that participated in the Crimean War were horrific: ∼1 in 5 men sent to Crimea died there. Notably, infections killed far more soldiers than did bullets, saber thrusts, or shells. In contrast, the US Army's crude mortality rate in Vietnam was 2.6%." -Neel S. Vietnam studies medical support: 1965–1970. Washington, DC: Department of the Army; 1991.
Germs were still just theory at this point and surgeons didn't wash their hands or surgical equipment. No precautions were taken for spreading typhus, typhoid, dysentery, and respiratory infections. Just by making basic improvements in hygiene the death rate plummeted from 42% to just 2%. Most attribute this to Florence Nightingale.

If people prior to Pasteur didn't know about germs, why do we read so much about preventing the spread of germs in the old testament?
Lev 15.
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath an issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean. And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness. Every bed whereon he that hath the issue lieth shall be unclean; and everything whereon he sitteth shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And he that sitteth on anything whereon he that hath the issue sat shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And he that toucheth the flesh of him that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean, then he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And what saddle soever he that hath the issue rideth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth anything that was under him shall be unclean until the even: and he that beareth those things shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whomsoever he that hath the issue toucheth, without having rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And the earthen vessel, which he that hath the issue toucheth, shall be broken; and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water. And when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue, then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes; and he shall bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean."

"And upon whatever they may fall when they are dead, it shall be unclean, whether it is an article of wood or clothing or skin (bottle) or sack, any vessel in which work is done; it must be put in water, and it shall be unclean until the evening; so it shall be cleansed. And every earthen vessel into which any of these [creeping things] falls, whatever may be in it shall be unclean, and you shall break the vessel." -Lev 11:33

Prior to Pasteur's discovery basic hygiene wasn't on their radar. Doctors would deliver babies, perform surgery, and examine a patient maybe wiping their hands with a towel and rarely washing equipment. They had no idea they were spreading infections prior to Pasteur's discoveries. Wearing rubber gloves or washing hands is just common sense today, how did people 4,000+ years ago figure that out? If they did by trial and error, why invoke a divine law? If it weren't for a microscope, things would be much different.

 

[turnorburn]

The Two Babylons
Alexander Hislop
Chapter III

Section II

Easter

Then look at Easter. What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, as pronounced by the people Nineveh, was evidently identical with that now in common use in this country. That name, aas found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar. The worship of Bel and Astarte was very early introduced into Britain, along with the Druids, "the priests of the groves." Some have imagined that the Druidical worship was first introduced by the Phoenicians, who, centuries before the Christian era, traded to the tin-mines of Cornwall. But the unequivocal traces of that worship are found in regions of the British islands where the Phoenicians never penetrated, and it has everywhere left indelible marks of the strong hold which it must have had on the early British mind.

From Bel, the 1st of May is still called Beltane in the Almanac; and we have customs still lingering at this day among us, which prove how exactly the worship of Bel or Moloch (for both titles belonged to the same god) had been observed even in the northern parts of this island. "The late Lady Baird, of Fern Tower, in Perthshire," says a writer in "Notes and Queries," thoroughly versed in British antiquities, "told me, that every year, at Beltane (or the 1st of May), a number of men and women assemble at an ancient Druidical circle of stones on her property near Crieff. They light a fire in the centre, each person puts a bit of oat-cake in a shepherd's bonnet; they all sit down, and draw blindfold a piece from the bonnet. One piece has been previously blackened, and whoever gets that piece has to jump through the fire in the centre of the circle, and pay a forfeit. This is, in fact, a part of the ancient worship of Baal, and the person on whom the lot fell was previously burnt as a sacrifice.

Now, the passing through the fire represents that, and the payment of the forfeit redeems the victim." If Baal was thus worshipped in Britain, it will not be difficult to believe that his consort Astarte was also adored by our ancestors, and that from Astarte, whose name in Nineveh was Ishtar, the religious solemnities of April, as now practised, are called by the name of Easter--that month, among our Pagan ancestors, having been called Easter-monath. The festival, of which we read in Church history, under the name of Easter, in the third or fourth centuries, was quite a different festival from that now observed in the Romish Church, and at that time was not known by any such name as Easter. It was called Pasch, or the Passover, and though not of Apostolic institution, * was very early observed by many professing Christians, in commemoration of the death and resurrection of Christ.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/sect32.htm

tob

 

[Barbarian]

I thought I'd add another verse I was recently reacquainted with:

All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again. -Ecc 1:7


I suppose whoever wrote those words could have figured out all streams flow into the sea, very impressive knowledge for back then.

Nils Wallerius - Swedish - between 1739 - 1747 A.D.. is credited with discovering evaporation. But whoever wrote Ecclesiastes seemed to have knowledge of evaporation since he wrote "there they return again".

Anyone who noticed that gravity affects water would have concluded that it returns to the seas. And likewise anyone noticing that water dries up would have noticed evaporation. People then didnt know as much as we do, but they were not stupid.

 

[Vaccine]

Then why is Nils Wallerius - Swedish - between 1739 - 1747 A.D credited with discovering evaporation?

It's easy to say it's obvious now, hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Barbarian]

Then why is Nils Wallerius - Swedish - between 1739 - 1747 A.D credited with discovering evaporation?

He isn't. He's known for studying the physics of evaporation, not for discovering it. He would have been a laughing stock among scientists if he had claimed to have discovered a process known to prehistoric man.

It's easy to say it's obvious now, hindsight is 20/20.

As I said, ancient people weren't as informed as we, but they weren't stupid. And the concept of contagion is a very ancient one, known to all cultures we know about. It isn't hard to figure out that if you are closely associated with someone who is ill, that you are likely to also become ill. The ancients knew there was something in body fluids of an ill person that could often spread the illness.

This seems to have been known very early, from observation.

 

[turnorburn]

There were no prehistoric men Adam was the first man..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

There were certainly men long before anyone did any writing. In fact, we know where the first case of writing was, and it occurred in Mesopotamia, long after people had spread around the globe.
http://en.finaly.org/index.php/The_earliest_precursor_of_writing

 

[Vaccine]

He isn't. He's known for studying the physics of evaporation, not for discovering it. He would have been a laughing stock among scientists if he had claimed to have discovered a process known to prehistoric man.

Who discovered it then?

It's hard to imagine a time before things like telephones or the internet. It's also hard to imagine what it was like before the age of enlightenment.
In 1687 Newton's ideas were revolutionary in that he demonstrated the laws of physics, not magic, best explained on the mechanics of the universe. Most cultures were mired in superstitions and knew little about natural process, I'd like to see a source that claims "prehistoric man" knew about that process.

As I said, ancient people weren't as informed as we, but they weren't stupid. And the concept of contagion is a very ancient one, known to all cultures we know about. It isn't hard to figure out that if you are closely associated with someone who is ill, that you are likely to also become ill. The ancients knew there was something in body fluids of an ill person that could often spread the illness.

This seems to have been known very early, from observation.

Again, can you provide a source to back this up?
From what I learned ancient cultures believed believed superstitions or gods caused disease.
"Hippocrates (460-370 BC) is credited with being the first person to believe that diseases were caused naturally, not because of superstition and gods". It was 2200 years later after the age of enlightenment that Pasteur discovered germs were more than just a theory.
I'm sure people saw a correlation between being around sick people and getting sick, even Genghis Kahn was using bubonic plague as biological warfare in the 1300's. I doubt he fully understood exactly how bubonic plague was spread since he himself died of it.
To me, obvious is not wanting to touch a dead body. There is a difference between avoiding sick people in general, and not so obvious: burning clothes, quarantining, washing, not even with the "tip of your finger" touching dead things.
"The earliest recorded evidence of the production of soap-like materials dates back to around 2800 BC in ancient Bablyon."
Yet a few thousand years before soap is being used, Moses writing down all these laws about being clean.

People like Sam Harris believe there is no such thing as divine inspiration, that man invented the whole idea of God as a coping mechanism or to control the masses. That the Bible "does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century". I agree not touching dead bodies is obvious to people in the first century, however differentiating between washing a bronze cistern but breaking a clay one is not so obvious. If Moses knew about germs he would have known a bronze cistern that touched a dead animal could be disinfected but a porous clay cistern or clothes needed to be destroyed. I don't think he knew about germs, I think he was telling the truth when he said "Moses reported the words of the people unto Jehovah". Ex 19:8

Another example: "Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: and thou shalt have a paddle among thy weapons; and it shall be, when thou sittest down abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee" -Deut 23:12
I agree burying your business is obvious, not burying it near your camp wasn't obvious to the settlers in Jamestown, along the Oregon trail or to many underdeveloped countries.
http://www.hum.gu.se/english/curren...mic-killed-many-in-the-1700s-1800s.cid1103278.


"Medical hygiene practices include:

• Isolation or quarantine of infectious persons or materials to prevent spread of infection.
• Sterilization of instruments used in surgical procedures.
• Use of protective clothing and barriers, such as masks, gowns, caps, eyewear and gloves.
• Proper bandaging and dressing of injuries.
• Safe disposal of medical waste.
• Disinfection of reusables (i.e. linen, pads, uniforms)
• Scrubbing up, hand-washing, especially in an operating room, but in more general health-care settings as well, where diseases can be transmitted.

Most of these practices were developed in the 19th century and were well established by the mid-20th century. Some procedures (such as disposal of medical waste) were refined in response to late-20th century disease outbreaks, notably AIDS and Ebola."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene

Seems obvious today but hand-washing between examining cadavers and the OR wasn't routine until Pasteur discovered germs.
The oldest recorded quarantining, disinfecting reusable cisterns, and hand washing are from the laws of Moses thousands of years ago. By contrast most cultures believed superstitions or gods caused disease and were drilling holes in peoples heads to relieve headaches, using mercury as a cure all, bloodletting, consuming mummy powder or honey coated cadavers.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
He isn't. He's known for studying the physics of evaporation, not for discovering it. He would have been a laughing stock among scientists if he had claimed to have discovered a process known to prehistoric man.

Who discovered it then?

The first person who noticed water dries up.

It's hard to imagine a time before things like telephones or the internet. It's also hard to imagine what it was like before the age of enlightenment.
In 1687 Newton's ideas were revolutionary in that he demonstrated the laws of physics, not magic, best explained on the mechanics of the universe. Most cultures were mired in superstitions and knew little about natural process, I'd like to see a source that claims "prehistoric man" knew about that process.

You don't think they knew about things drying out? Seriously?

Barbarian said: ↑

As I said, ancient people weren't as informed as we, but they weren't stupid. And the concept of contagion is a very ancient one, known to all cultures we know about. It isn't hard to figure out that if you are closely associated with someone who is ill, that you are likely to also become ill. The ancients knew there was something in body fluids of an ill person that could often spread the illness.

This seems to have been known very early, from observation.​

Again, can you provide a source to back this up?

Surgical techniques in the ancient world could be surprisingly advanced. The famous Roman physician Galen (c. 129–199 A.D.), who was born in the city of Pergamum near the Asklepion, is generally regarded as the most accomplished medical researcher of the Roman world, and some of his surgical procedures would not be seen again until modern times. He successfully conducted cataract surgeries by inserting a needle behind the lens of the eye in order to remove the cataract, and his described methods of preparing a clean operating theater reveal a keen awareness of contagion.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...e-and-practice/medicine-in-the-ancient-world/
"Modern surgeons" of the 17th and 18th centuries were generally filthy, compared to ancient ones. Not all of them.

From what I learned ancient cultures believed believed superstitions or gods caused disease.

Democritus laughed at that idea as superstition, and he was highly regarded by people of his time. So educated people in the Mediterranean knew better.

I'm sure people saw a correlation between being around sick people and getting sick,

Hence the concern we see in ancient writings about cleanliness and quarantine with regard to illnesses that were known to be communicable. The Hebrew were no dumber than any of the people around them. Why should they be?

 

[turnorburn]

Barbarian says:

He isn't. He's known for studying the physics of evaporation, not for discovering it. He would have been a laughing stock among scientists if he had claimed to have discovered a process known to prehistoric man.

You seem to forgot there were no prehistoric men.. Adam was the first man.. and he was no dummy he spoke with God and God is no dummy as well..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

That's easy to refute. We know exactly when writing was first developed, and it was at a time in the Middle East long after men had occupied all of the Earth except Antarctica. So Adam was certainly from prehistoric times. "Historic" means after the development of writing.
http://www.designhistory.org/Handwriting_pages/EarlyWriting.html

 

[turnorburn]

No need to go on the defensive Barbarian there is nothing to refute just admit Adam was the first man is all..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

No need to go on the defensive Barbarian

Just showing you a few facts. You don't have to feel defensive. It's just the way things are. Writing showed up a long, long time after Adam.

there is nothing to refute

As you learned, Adam came long before anyone did any writing.

just admit Adam was the first man is all..

I'm pleased that you admit that Adam was the first man, but you should also acknowledge that writing came much later.