Verses what? I look forward to the future of the question coming to fruition; "(What shall be the sign) of the end of the world? (Age).
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End Times Confusing - Preterism
- Thread starter Hope of glory
- Start date
Hope of glory
Member
Eugene
You said
"Tell us, when shall these things be?
What shall be the sign of thy coming?
(What shall be the sign) of the end of the world? (Age)"
"These things" would "be" within "that generation"...."this generation will not pass until all these things be fulfilled"
The "sign" of his "coming" upon Jerusalem in judgment is the AOD, "you shall see the AOD". This was the Roman armies which made Jerusalem a desolation.
The actual destruction of Jerusalem was the "sign" that the age had come to a close. (The covenant had ended 40 years earlier through the cross, but the "age" continued until the temple and its entire system was completely destroyed).
Age:
" A period of time dominated by a central figure or prominent feature"
"A cultural period marked by the prominence of a particular item
This was the temple and it's mosaic system for the Jews.
Their cultural period of time which was dominated by the temple and it's ordinances came to a sudden end in 70ad with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
Now please, Can you address my arguement in post 263 and show me where I have erred if in fact I have.
Thank you brother
You said
"Tell us, when shall these things be?
What shall be the sign of thy coming?
(What shall be the sign) of the end of the world? (Age)"
"These things" would "be" within "that generation"...."this generation will not pass until all these things be fulfilled"
The "sign" of his "coming" upon Jerusalem in judgment is the AOD, "you shall see the AOD". This was the Roman armies which made Jerusalem a desolation.
The actual destruction of Jerusalem was the "sign" that the age had come to a close. (The covenant had ended 40 years earlier through the cross, but the "age" continued until the temple and its entire system was completely destroyed).
Age:
" A period of time dominated by a central figure or prominent feature"
"A cultural period marked by the prominence of a particular item
This was the temple and it's mosaic system for the Jews.
Their cultural period of time which was dominated by the temple and it's ordinances came to a sudden end in 70ad with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
Now please, Can you address my arguement in post 263 and show me where I have erred if in fact I have.
Thank you brother
Hope of glory
Member
Endtimesdeut32/70AD
response to post 272
Good word brother, I had already shown this as well, but you have given even greater detail
Thank you my fiend
response to post 272
Good word brother, I had already shown this as well, but you have given even greater detail
Thank you my fiend
Hope of glory
Member
JLB (response to post 273)
Question:
Can you show me where I have errored in my argument in post 263 if in fact you believe I have?
Thanks
Question:
Can you show me where I have errored in my argument in post 263 if in fact you believe I have?
Thanks
I want to try and start fresh. I have gone back to so many of your post's and addressed many multiple questions.
One question at a time, starting at the beginning of Matthew, that will bring clarity to our conversation.
Either you ask a question first or you can answer mine.
Concerning Matthew 24:1-2 -
1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."Matthew 24:1-2
In verse 2, the context is found in the setting - His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
"Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
Therefore all these things in verse 2 is a reference to the buildings of the temple.
In verse 34 we see the phrase -
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
The things that must take place are the signs that Jesus just carefully and distinctly detailed starting in verse 4.
Jesus qualifies this by stating in verse 33 -
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
When all these things take place is a reference to the signs Jesus said would take place just before He returned.
Do you agree or disagree?
You don't have to answer why, just agree or disagree.
JLB
Deborah13
Member
Oh no, they will occur at the end of the age, and the generation seeing them come to pass will not pass away before all things prophesied AT THAT TIME.
Hope of glory
Member
JLB (reply to post 284)
You said "34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place"
JLB understand this, verse 34 is the answer to the disciples question "WHEN shall these things be"
He gives them the time...."this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled".
His "coming" and the "end of the age" are not separate events from the destruction of Jerusalem.
This is your stumbling stone.
This is so dimple, the destruction of Jerusalem meant that Jesus had cone in judgment and put sn end to that age.
I have already described these things in detail.
You said "34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place"
JLB understand this, verse 34 is the answer to the disciples question "WHEN shall these things be"
He gives them the time...."this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled".
His "coming" and the "end of the age" are not separate events from the destruction of Jerusalem.
This is your stumbling stone.
This is so dimple, the destruction of Jerusalem meant that Jesus had cone in judgment and put sn end to that age.
I have already described these things in detail.
Hope of glory
Member
Deborah 13 (response to post 287)
Do you agree?
Do you agree?
So you believe that the destruction of the temple was Jesus Coming in Judgement and the great tribulation was the destruction of the temple and the city as described in Matthew 24:29-31?
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
JLB
Hope of glory
Member
JLB (response to post 286)
JLB there is no sense going through any of the discourse from the beginning, verse by verse. The following confirms what you are alluding to in Math.24.
Please take time to read the following.
I have used your same method of reasoning which you used in Math.24 and have applied it to Luke 21 also.
Please don't try and say that Math.24 and Luke 21 ard not the same discourse just because one was spoken in the temple and another one on a mountain.
You say that Matthew and Mark discourses are the same but Lukes is different.
This very strange since the disciples questions in both Mark and Luke are almost word for
word, yet the disciples questions in Matthew are very different from both Mark and Luke.
Regardless, there are dozens of parallels between the three discourses which testify to the fact that all 3 accounts are slightly different versions of the same discourse. Just as the gospels are 4 individual Accounts, yet they work together and compliment eachother as they form one complete narrative. So it is with these discourses. Though individual and slightly different, they work together and compliment eachother as they form one complete discourse.
The purpose of 3 discourse was not so thay they would be viewed as 3 dufferent disciurses of which we could pick our favorite, and form our doctrines around it. But rather, that the 3 would be blended together as one, forming a foundation of truth which the NT apostles would stand upon.
Here is my statement (which also validates what are trying to say).
Math.24:15 references the AOD and Math.24:30 references the coming of Jesus in the
clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same discourse.
In Math.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v34).
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD. (this is what you are saying, which is correct)
Luke 21:20-22 references the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same
discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v32). Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem. (using your same method of reasoning, this what I say, which is also correct)
Now let's combine both accounts of the same discourse for the fullest understanding:
Therefore, according to Luke and Matthew, the generation to see Jesus coming in the clouds would also see the AOD and the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.
(This is a combination of what we are both saying, and is also a correct statement). By combining these 2 accounts of Jesus' discourse, we have a fuller revelation of what "that
generation" would see before they would die.
Question: Have I errored in what I have said? Yes or no
If yes, why?
Thanks
Hope of glory
JLB there is no sense going through any of the discourse from the beginning, verse by verse. The following confirms what you are alluding to in Math.24.
Please take time to read the following.
I have used your same method of reasoning which you used in Math.24 and have applied it to Luke 21 also.
Please don't try and say that Math.24 and Luke 21 ard not the same discourse just because one was spoken in the temple and another one on a mountain.
You say that Matthew and Mark discourses are the same but Lukes is different.
This very strange since the disciples questions in both Mark and Luke are almost word for
word, yet the disciples questions in Matthew are very different from both Mark and Luke.
Regardless, there are dozens of parallels between the three discourses which testify to the fact that all 3 accounts are slightly different versions of the same discourse. Just as the gospels are 4 individual Accounts, yet they work together and compliment eachother as they form one complete narrative. So it is with these discourses. Though individual and slightly different, they work together and compliment eachother as they form one complete discourse.
The purpose of 3 discourse was not so thay they would be viewed as 3 dufferent disciurses of which we could pick our favorite, and form our doctrines around it. But rather, that the 3 would be blended together as one, forming a foundation of truth which the NT apostles would stand upon.
Here is my statement (which also validates what are trying to say).
Math.24:15 references the AOD and Math.24:30 references the coming of Jesus in the
clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same discourse.
In Math.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v34).
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD. (this is what you are saying, which is correct)
Luke 21:20-22 references the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same
discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v32). Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem. (using your same method of reasoning, this what I say, which is also correct)
Now let's combine both accounts of the same discourse for the fullest understanding:
Therefore, according to Luke and Matthew, the generation to see Jesus coming in the clouds would also see the AOD and the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.
(This is a combination of what we are both saying, and is also a correct statement). By combining these 2 accounts of Jesus' discourse, we have a fuller revelation of what "that
generation" would see before they would die.
Question: Have I errored in what I have said? Yes or no
If yes, why?
Thanks
Hope of glory
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you for acknowledging that all these things refers to what Jesus said in His discourse and not the destruction of the temple.
I agree.
Let's look at Luke 21:20-28
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
The sun,moon and stars event is after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The times of the Gentiles have not yet been fulfilled, even to this day.
To understand further let's study Daniel 9 together.
JLB
Hope of glory
Member
JLB (response to post 293)
I have used exactly the same method of reasoning as you have. If I am in error show me where I am.
You may have to come to the conclusion that the stars falling is not meant to be taken literally brother.
You said "The times of the Gentiles have not yet been fulfilled, even to this day"
Jesus said "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.....This generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled"
Hum? Who do I believe, you are Jesus.
You must stop picking and choosing what has and has not been fulfilled based on your understanding.
You said "Thank you for acknowledging that all these things refers to what Jesus said in His discourse and not the destruction of the temple".
I did not say this, read again.
Show me where I have errored if in fact I have
I have used exactly the same method of reasoning as you have. If I am in error show me where I am.
You may have to come to the conclusion that the stars falling is not meant to be taken literally brother.
You said "The times of the Gentiles have not yet been fulfilled, even to this day"
Jesus said "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.....This generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled"
Hum? Who do I believe, you are Jesus.
You must stop picking and choosing what has and has not been fulfilled based on your understanding.
You said "Thank you for acknowledging that all these things refers to what Jesus said in His discourse and not the destruction of the temple".
I did not say this, read again.
Show me where I have errored if in fact I have
Can anyone help me understand how that when Matthew 24:21 says "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be," and Josephus (A Jewish historian) claims that 1,100,000 people were killed during the siege, of which a majority were Jewish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70)
Can anyone prove to me that 1,100,000 Jews killed in 70 AD is the greatest tribulation that will ever be when Revelation 9:15 says there's coming a time when a third of men will be slain by a (Hyperbole is it?)
Can anyone prove to me that 1,100,000 Jews killed in 70 AD is the greatest tribulation that will ever be when Revelation 9:15 says there's coming a time when a third of men will be slain by a (Hyperbole is it?)
Hope of glory
Member
JLB (response to post 291)
Of course, we have been over this and I have already given ample evidence from the OT As to why this is not future and how the prophet language fits perfectly the context of the destruction of the temple.
Please, if I have errored in my reasoning show me how. As you have reasoned from Matthew, so I have reasoned from Luke. Do you believe Matthew more than Luke?
Luke 21:20-22 references the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v32). Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.
Here it is again in short, if my reasoning is flawed show me. If you cannot, then my reasoning stands and my doctrine is true and Jesus' words have been validated.
Thanks
Of course, we have been over this and I have already given ample evidence from the OT As to why this is not future and how the prophet language fits perfectly the context of the destruction of the temple.
Please, if I have errored in my reasoning show me how. As you have reasoned from Matthew, so I have reasoned from Luke. Do you believe Matthew more than Luke?
Luke 21:20-22 references the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v32). Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.
Here it is again in short, if my reasoning is flawed show me. If you cannot, then my reasoning stands and my doctrine is true and Jesus' words have been validated.
Thanks
Deborah13
Member
1. Yes
2. Yes and no. Actually I think that their questions are referring to approx. Matt 23:31 -24:2
3. Yes and the other verses I mentioned
Matt 23:34-36 He says He is sending prophets, etc. to them and they will kill them, being just like those before them, and He will take His revenge on them for all these that were killed. (this will include His own death).
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’â€
Psalms 118
21 I will praise You,
For You have answered me,
And have become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone....
25 Save now, I pray, O Lord;
O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.
So that I am clear about what you believe, since you are nor full preterist, please answer the following two questions for me so I know what you believe.
- Do you believe that the destruction of the temple was Jesus Coming in Judgement, as described in Matthew 24:30. Yes or No.
- Do you believe the great tribulation was the destruction of the city and sanctuary in 70 AD? Yes or No.
JLB
Sorry brother, I didn't understand your point here.To start with, which verse? Matthew 24:21 or Revelation 9:15 I think you're referring to? Jesus gave both of them. Wasn't there two apostles that went past 70 AD? And then I care less who believes my doctrine; my salvation is not determined in me being deceived by man's theology. I have no idea what you're saying concerning the whore of Babylon killing the apostles in the future.