Eternal separation from God vs. Psalm 139

[Pard]

I would like it to be known, we are not arguing whether or not hell exists, or whether or not it is eternal. For the express purpose of this topic we are going to assume a few things:

1.) Hell is a very real place.
2.) Hell is for eternity.
3.)

Spiritual death is simply a separation from God. This is from Vines Hebrew/ Greek Dictionary.

thanatos (2288) "death"---(b) the separation of man from God. "Death" is the opposite of life; IT NEVER DENOTES NONEXISTANCE. As spiritual life is "conscious existence in communion with God," so spiritual "death" is "conscious existence in separation from God."-- Vines Concise Dictionary pg. 83 (Caps are mine)

This is the second death--eternal separation from God. Scripture says there are 2 options, Kolasin aionion or zoen aionion, eternal punishment or eternal life, a conscious existence in communion with God or a conscious existence in separation from God.

-Westtexas

For the purpose of this topic we will assume all of these are true and supported by the Bible.

(The reason for all this assuming is the last time someone asked a question about hell it became locked do to an over-heated debate...)

Now the question:

How does a "conscious existence in separation from God" fit in with Psalm 139:8?

7 I can never escape from your Spirit!
I can never get away from your presence!
8 If I go up to heaven, you are there;
if I go down to the grave[H7585], you are there.

H7585 - Sheol - hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

 

[jasoncran]

i agree.

 

[westtexas]

An outstanding question,Pard! Thanks for re-posting it. This is my take on it and we'll see what everyone else has to say. In the OT times of David when the Psalms were written Sheoul refered to the "abode of the dead"--the unrighteous dead as well as the righteous. Just as in the story of Lazarus and Dives-both were in Sheoul (or Hades in the NT and Greek)-one was comforted and one was in agony. If David would have ascended to Heaven--God was there. If David would have descended to Sheoul--God was there to comfort, just as He did with Lazarus. Until the crucifixtion of our Lord when He descended and "set the captives free". The lake of fire or the eternal separation from God is reserved for the unrighteous at the final judgement.
I reserve the right to change my answer if someone else's makes more sense
Westtexas

 

[Guest]

Now the question:

How does a "conscious existence in separation from God" fit in with Psalm 139:8?

7 I can never escape from your Spirit!
I can never get away from your presence!
8 If I go up to heaven, you are there;
if I go down to the grave[H7585], you are there.

H7585 - Sheol - hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Good question.
There is a passage in the NT that says 'through Him all things exist" or 'held together"

because by Him all things were created, those in the heavens and those on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
(Col 1:16-17 EMTV)


G4921
???????? / ????????? / ?????????
sunista? / sunistan? / sunist?mi
Thayer Definition:
1) to place together, to set in the same place,to bring or band together
1a) to stand with (or near)
2) to set one with another
2a) by way of presenting or introducing him
2b) to comprehend
3) to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing
3a) to show, prove, establish, exhibit
4) to put together, unite parts into one whole
4a) to be composed of, consist

The NT also says about ET....

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I have to wonder if it is even possible to be entirely out of His presence and still exist or anything to exist outside of His control.
Possibly it is the case that those who are in torment are within some part of His presence, but from their perspective they arent ?

 

[Aaron the Tall]

This is a pretty simple answer, but I don't think David really had all-knowledge of the afterlife. I think he is using hyperbole here to say that God's presence is with him no matter where he goes. It is a refrain of praise more than a doctrine on hell.

David seems to use other hyperbole in the Psalms, such as Psalm 121:7 "The LORD will keep you from all harm." This is probably David expressing his gratefulness to God more than an all-encompassing statement. Both Job and myself have gone through some harm.