Existence

[patsafarian]

What observable evidence to you have of gods existence? :-?

 

[unred typo]

The heavens declare the glory of God and the earth shows his handiwork. The faith I have is evidence of things not seen.

 

[Ted]

I can go along with what unread has said.

I would add to that though that life's experiences have very much convinced me of the Divine existence: The personal experience of the Divine; seeing how the Divine experience has changed others; life itself is a mystery as is existence; guidance and direction from the Holy Spirit that seems always to lead in the right direction.

We could add to that that scientists now believe we are hard wired to search for the Divine source of all life.

Shalom
Ted

 

[Free]

What observable evidence to you have of gods existence? :-?

My existence.

 

[patsafarian]

What observable evidence to you have of gods existence? :-?

My existence.

ye but what makes you think there's a creator

 

[patsafarian]

I can go along with what unread has said.

I would add to that though that life's experiences have very much convinced me of the Divine existence: The personal experience of the Divine; seeing how the Divine experience has changed others; life itself is a mystery as is existence; guidance and direction from the Holy Spirit that seems always to lead in the right direction.

We could add to that that scientists now believe we are hard wired to search for the Divine source of all life.

Shalom
Ted

I did say facts not your persnol opinon but whatever

 

[handy]

In one of the Narnia books, "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader", Eustace and Ramandu have an interesting conversation regarding stars:

"In our world," said Eustace, "a star is a huge ball of flaming gas."
Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of."

Suppose I say that the stars are observable evidence of God's existence.

Someone could respond with, "What, stars!?! Why they're nothing but balls of flaming gas."

Then I could respond, "No, that is just what the stars are made of. But, stars are observable evidence of God's existence, because of the fact that stars have an intelligent purpose in this universe. They are placed in such a way that they provide signs and seasons and days and years. These stars are so stable that men are able to find their way across an ocean. Our own star, the sun bathes us in the energy we need to sustain life on this planet. Our sun pulls the planets around it in such delicate balance, that our own earth can have the seasons which not only provide for the growth of crops, but as the planet alternately warms and cools, provides for the cleansing and regeneration of fresh air and water. This balance is so delicate, that if the earth were to go off it's course around the sun, just a little bit, all life on this planet would cease to exist. God placed the stars this way, for our benefit and for His glory. Sheesh! What an AWESOME God He is!"

Then someone could very well respond with, "Naw, are you crazy? The stars are just in their place in the universe by accident. They are no 'proof' of God in any way shape or form!"

I write this to point out why most conversations that start with questions like yours, patsafarian, usually never resolve much. For the believer, the whole universe is so chock full of God's handiwork that it's hard to figure out how anyone could miss it. But, for the unbeliever, as soon a believer points out obvious evidence of God's existence, the unbeliever will come up with reasons why that really isn't 'evidence' at all.

Now, patsafarian, I don't want to be so cynical as to assume that you are going to pooh-pooh any answer to God's existence given to you.

But, I do wonder, just what would prove God's existense to you? What 'observable evidence' are you looking for?

 

[Free]

My existence.

ye but what makes you think there's a creator

I would once again answer: my existence.

 

[patsafarian]

In one of the Narnia books, "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader", Eustace and Ramandu have an interesting conversation regarding stars:

"In our world," said Eustace, "a star is a huge ball of flaming gas."
Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of."

Suppose I say that the stars are observable evidence of God's existence.

Someone could respond with, "What, stars!?! Why they're nothing but balls of flaming gas."

Then I could respond, "No, that is just what the stars are made of. But, stars are observable evidence of God's existence, because of the fact that stars have an intelligent purpose in this universe. They are placed in such a way that they provide signs and seasons and days and years. These stars are so stable that men are able to find their way across an ocean. Our own star, the sun bathes us in the energy we need to sustain life on this planet. Our sun pulls the planets around it in such delicate balance, that our own earth can have the seasons which not only provide for the growth of crops, but as the planet alternately warms and cools, provides for the cleansing and regeneration of fresh air and water. This balance is so delicate, that if the earth were to go off it's course around the sun, just a little bit, all life on this planet would cease to exist. God placed the stars this way, for our benefit and for His glory. Sheesh! What an AWESOME God He is!"

Then someone could very well respond with, "Naw, are you crazy? The stars are just in their place in the universe by accident. They are no 'proof' of God in any way shape or form!"

I write this to point out why most conversations that start with questions like yours, patsafarian, usually never resolve much. For the believer, the whole universe is so chock full of God's handiwork that it's hard to figure out how anyone could miss it. But, for the unbeliever, as soon a believer points out obvious evidence of God's existence, the unbeliever will come up with reasons why that really isn't 'evidence' at all.

Now, patsafarian, I don't want to be so cynical as to assume that you are going to pooh-pooh any answer to God's existence given to you.

But, I do wonder, just what would prove God's existense to you? What 'observable evidence' are you looking for?

Stars are not by accident but rather natural selection.

"But, I do wonder, just what would prove God's existense to you? What 'observable evidence' are you looking for?

Exactly my point there is no evidence of existence and there never will be you may say there is no evidence to prove god doesnt exist but a being complex enough to create the universe would have had to evolve from something less complex (sort of a caveman god) also the notion that god created the universe and also dwells withing it is paradoxical and is therefore inpossible (something cant be pink and invisible at the same time can it).

Our sun pulls the planets around it in such delicate balance, that our own earth can have the seasons which not only provide for the growth of crops, but as the planet alternately warms and cools, provides for the cleansing and regeneration of fresh air and water. This balance is so delicate, that if the earth were to go off it's course around the sun, just a little bit, all life on this planet would cease to exist. God placed the stars this way, for our benefit and for His glory

but what about the furthest stars which are trillions upon trillions of light years away and serve no purpose our galaxy or theres? why would a god who as a purpose for everything create these stars?
As for our own sun it was placed there by randomness the chance that it would be it the right position to create life as we know it is 1in a billion but when there are and infinite number of universes those odds don't look as bad do they. the sheer unlikeliness of life is nothing compared with the number of chances it has

 

[patsafarian]

I would once again answer: my existence.

your existence is the process of billions of years natural selection and evolution.

 

[TanNinety]

What observable evidence to you have of gods existence? :-?

What observable evidence do you have of the fourth dimension time's existence?

Exactly my point there is no evidence of existence and there never will be

If I give you a watch and tell you to measure the amount of heat produced when I mix HCL with NaOH, will you be able to? Don't you need different right set of apparatus to measure different things? Ok then. What apparatus are you planning on using to measure deity? Let's begin there and then we can carry on with what evidence can be presented.

You are special pleading your case. To deny evidence does not make it "no evidence". You have to be honest enough to admit that evidence exists and it is subjective, hence you have right now no means to test it.

but when there are and infinite number of universes those odds don't look as bad do they

I am amused at the irony of this statement. Your screen name patsafarian seems to poke fun at the ones who have 'faith' in the existence of a deity. Yet it is with 'faith' that you accept that there are infinite universes out there. We have not even a way to look beyond the accelerating edge of our universe which is said to be expanding beyond the speed of light. Yet you seem to have taken that other, in fact infinite, universes such as ours exist outside this accelerating edge without any observable evidence.

Do you have any peer reviewed publications to support multiverses as a fact? If not, you are comparing a 'possibility' of multiverse against the 'possibility' of deity and personally concluding that deity doesn't exist. But you fail to prove that your conclusion is ontologically superior to the conclusion of a theist. I've been an atheist for most of my life and what you have presented here is riddled with the same fallacies that you desire to accuse the theist of.

 

[handy]

Exactly my point there is no evidence of existence and there never will be

So why'd ya ask?

Now, if you are seeking to gain from believers in God an answer for the hope that is in them, then that's fair enough. I'd be happy to share with you why I believe in a: God, b: Jesus as my Savior, and even c: Your need for Him. Frankly, there is nothing I get more excited about sharing.

But, that's not what you are asked. Which is why before I go into wearing out my fingers typing out my testimony, I'll pause a bit to make an important point.

Jesus told us not to cast our pearls before swine. Harsh words, but sometimes Jesus could be a very harsh Person. What He meant by was that we are not to lay our heart-felt beliefs out there to someone who is just interested in trampling them down and gloating over how much smarter they are than us doofusses who can actually believe in such tripe.

So, I'm always ready to share the hope that is within me with anyone who is truly seeking answers. Share, but not argue. Because I've learned that there is no point with trying to discuss things with someone who thinks he or she already has all the answers to all the mysteries of the universe, and just wants to point out how wrong and stupid I am.

Now, there are others here who might not mind at all trying to convince you that you're wrong in your evolutionary smugness. More power to them. But, I've got a couple of rather interesting conversations around here that, while they are in no way as important as your eternal security, they're also not a waste of time. So, if you are truly interested in coming to understand God and why I believe in him, I'll be happy to discuss it with you. If you just want to discuss why evolution is a much smarter faith than Christianity, I'll leave you to it.

 

[Free]

I would once again answer: my existence.

your existence is the process of billions of years natural selection and evolution.

That's what you say. I believe that evolution is far too inadequate to account for the full human experience and the "manishness of man" as Francis Schaeffer puts it, nevermind the fact that we even exist in the first place.

The problem is that you do not want to use the appropriate method for the task. You want to use science to obtain undeniable proof of God's existence but modern science precludes any evidence of anything other than the natural. Science, by definition, does not deal with the supernatural. But if it is God you seek then you must use the method and tools that are appropriate. As I once read (paraphrased), if you want to observe the stars you don't use a stethoscope and if you want to listen to your heartbeat you don't use a telescope.

Use any instrument you like for whatever task you want but if you don't use the instrument(s) appropriate for the task you will never find what you are looking for.

 

[unred typo]

Free said "I would once again answer: my existence." your existence is the process of billions of years natural selection and evolution.

That's what you say. I believe that evolution is far too inadequate to account for the full human experience and the "manishness of man" as Francis Schaeffer puts it, nevermind the fact that we even exist in the first place.

The problem is that you do not want to use the appropriate method for the task. You want to use science to obtain undeniable proof of God's existence but modern science precludes any evidence of anything other than the natural. Science, by definition, does not deal with the supernatural. But if it is God you seek then you must use the method and tools that are appropriate. As I once read (paraphrased), if you want to observe the stars you don't use a stethoscope and if you want to listen to your heartbeat you don't use a telescope.

Use any instrument you like for whatever task you want but if you don't use the instrument(s) appropriate for the task you will never find what you are looking for.

Excellent post, Free. I agree.