False teachers

[Heidi]

So how do we know who's a false teacher? It's not hard for those who know and believe God's word. So since God is the only one with the complete truth, then we need to go to His Word for the truth.

Jesus told us we have only one teacher and that's the Christ. Remember? Or are the catholics confused about who the Christ is? If so, I'll enlighten you. Jesus is the Christ, not the pope, and Jesus is also the Word as John 1;14 says. So here's what God says about how to spot false teachers:

2 Corinthians 11:4-15, "For if someone comes to you and preaches a different Jesus other than the one we preached, or if you receive a different Spirit other than the one you accepted or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough...for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen masquerding as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising then , if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

So how do we tell who's masquerading as apostles of Christ but are actually false teachers? Paul tells us; if they preach a different Jesus and/or a different gospel than the one that Paul and the apotsles preached. And the one that the apostles preached is the bible.


So since Mary's sinlessness, perpertual virginity, praying to people, calling religious leaders; Holy Father, etc. are not in the gospel, and in most cases contradict the gospel, then those are a different gospel than what Paul preached and those who pass along those made-up stories are false teachers masquerading as apostles of Christ.

So sorry, but when it comes to believing any person (including the pope) over God's word, people will always lose to God. Sorry. :

 

[MrVersatile48]

Well said, Heidi: a thread that deserves to be woven into the tapestry of topics:- 8-)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=

Ian

 

[Heidi]

Well said, Heidi: a thread that deserves to be woven into the tapestry of topics:- 8-)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=

Ian

Thank you. But of course it's God's word that I was passing along so he gets the credit and should be forever praised, amen. But somehow I don't think that the Catholics will get it as all cults don't. :

 

[Drew]

Well said, Heidi

Not well said at all.

The whole tenor of the OP is not edifying and is all too characteristic of what we see in these forums, including the recent spate of "bash the Catholics" threads. As a protestant (at least that's what I think I am), I want to make it clear that Heidi most certainly does not speak for all of us.

When people who claim to be representatives of the light of the world engage in this demonization of Catholics, along with the usual and tiresome "you are of your father Satan and will burn for it" implications, a dis-service to the true gospel is perpetrated. The fact that some protestants here endlessly play this game of abandoning fair and serious debate in favour of strident rhetoric casts serious disrepute on He whom we should glorify by our actions. Jesus is coming quickly to give back to us "according to what we have done". We need to all take this seriously as I suspect one day we will all be called to account for harsh words that hurt and divide.

And I suspect that the "but they needed to be warned and all I was doing was speaking the truth 'in love'" defence will seem pretty thin when one is then asked "And how, exactly, does calling a catholic a minion of Satan really communicate love?".

 

[lovely]

Drew,

I agree with the tone of your post. I am not sure where you stand on the practice of what I consider idolatry...worship of Mary, praying to saints, etc....but I agree that though our tone should be firm, it should also be gentle and loving. But for the grace of God, we also could be very easily overtaken with a fault...especially when it is put forth by our own church leaders. I pray God reveal those things to all of us who are His no matter where we are scattered. As I said in other threads, I think the Catholics are not the only ones who need to examine their denomination, but I think in this area they need to see the Truth of the Word on the matter and turn away from the willful practice of such obvious sin. I tend to avoid these threads to a degree, because they can become bashing...of many brothers and sisters caught in a snare, I believe...rather than the practice of edification for the sake of the church, and in the name of our Saviour. It is always the tone that bothers me, and from which I want to separate myself, but I also do not want to fail to speak the Truth in Love genuinely. Anyway, I appreciate that you brought it up, and I admit I have been guilty of thinking, and typing, in a bashing tone before myself...and not just against those who are Catholic...Oh, that the fruits of the Spirit would be produced in us! Truth in Love is a true thing, but I suppose we do tend to miss the mark at times being in the flesh. The Lord bless you.

 

[destiny]

Drew,

I agree with the tone of your post. I am not sure where you stand on the practice of what I consider idolatry...worship of Mary, praying to saints, etc....but I agree that though our tone should be firm, it should also be gentle and loving. But for the grace of God, we also could be very easily overtaken with a fault...especially when it is put forth by our own church leaders. I pray God reveal those things to all of us who are His no matter where we are scattered. As I said in other threads, I think the Catholics are not the only ones who need to examine their denomination, but I think in this area they need to see the Truth of the Word on the matter and turn away from the willful practice of such obvious sin. I tend to avoid these threads to a degree, because they can become bashing...of many brothers and sisters caught in a snare, I believe...rather than the practice of edification for the sake of the church, and in the name of our Saviour. It is always the tone that bothers me, and from which I want to separate myself, but I also do not want to fail to speak the Truth in Love genuinely. Anyway, I appreciate that you brought it up, and I admit I have been guilty of thinking, and typing, in a bashing tone before myself...and not just against those who are Catholic...Oh, that the fruits of the Spirit would be produced in us! Truth in Love is a true thing, but I suppose we do tend to miss the mark at times being in the flesh. The Lord bless you.

The tone or spirit behind the post bothers me too, lovely.
Without the seasoning of humility, all a person is doing is stirring up strife instead of delivering a truth. Nobody will listen to someone who only cares about being the 'right' one. We need to remember that God also hates pride and arrogance.

 

[Heidi]

Not well said at all.

The whole tenor of the OP is not edifying and is all too characteristic of what we see in these forums, including the recent spate of "bash the Catholics" threads. As a protestant (at least that's what I think I am), I want to make it clear that Heidi most certainly does not speak for all of us.

When people who claim to be representatives of the light of the world engage in this demonization of Catholics, along with the usual and tiresome "you are of your father Satan and will burn for it" implications, a dis-service to the true gospel is perpetrated. The fact that some protestants here endlessly play this game of abandoning fair and serious debate in favour of strident rhetoric casts serious disrepute on He whom we should glorify by our actions. Jesus is coming quickly to give back to us "according to what we have done". We need to all take this seriously as I suspect one day we will all be called to account for harsh words that hurt and divide.

And I suspect that the "but they needed to be warned and all I was doing was speaking the truth 'in love'" defence will seem pretty thin when one is then asked "And how, exactly, does calling a catholic a minion of Satan really communicate love?".

I don't edify false teachers and neither does Paul. Do you? :o So sorry, but I simply quoted God's words. It's obvious that you don't believe them.

 

[Heidi]

The tone or spirit behind the post bothers me too, lovely.
Without the seasoning of humility, all a person is doing is stirring up strife instead of delivering a truth. Nobody will listen to someone who only cares about being the 'right' one. We need to remember that God also hates pride and arrogance.

Sorry, but this is the tone of Paul's words: "For such men are false apostels. Deceitful workmen masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprisin then if his servants masquerade as servants of rigtheousness. Their end will be what their actons deserve."

So what do you think Paul means by the last statement? Do you think that he believes that deceitful wormen masquerading as apostles of Christ deserve to be edifiied? :

So if you think Paul's tone is bad, it's tame compared to Christ's tone with wolves in sheep's clothing:

Mathew 23:15, "Woe to you, teachers of the law, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

Matthew 23:33, "You snakes! You brood of vipers!How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

And the Pharisees at least believed every word of scripture! The catholics change and pervert it whenever they can. So no, Destiny, words can't convey the perversion of the Catholics and I agree with Jesus when he tells us to " Hate what is evil and cling to what is good." So I do not edify false teachers and neither does Paul or Jesus. Love is not endorsing Satan's desire to pervert the gospel. But the secular world thinks love is a hippie kind of love that insults God but never insults men. : That's satan for ya. :roll:

So why do you call me arrogant for believing the bible? Would you like me better if I didn't believe it? :o Or maybe you'd prefe that I change Christ's words around also. So which is it?

 

[destiny]

I have no problem in how Paul addresses deception. Are you saying your methods are the same, Heidi?
Also, keep in mind that Jesus was addressing hypocrisy---they kept the law to the letter. They lacked humility and i'm sure Jesus hated that among other things.

BTW, I was agreeing with what lovely said more than anything else.

 

[francisdesales]

Not well said at all.

The whole tenor of the OP is not edifying and is all too characteristic of what we see in these forums, including the recent spate of "bash the Catholics" threads. As a protestant (at least that's what I think I am), I want to make it clear that Heidi most certainly does not speak for all of us.

Well, that is good to hear. I have noticed that my spirituality was hurt when I read the posts of this "Heidi", those hateful posts that pretend to be from the Spirit of God, when in reality, merely stir the hate pot... I found it difficult to not want to get in an argument with this person. Fortunately, by the grace of God, I did not respond in kind. I found that when I put her on my "Ignore" list, my spirituality has improved!! I have found when I tune out the shrill and hateful posts of such people as Heidi and Doppleganger, I am able to have better conversation, more spiritually uplifting, with my brothers and sisters in Christ who happen to disagree with Catholicism.

We may disagree on specifics, but this "you are going to hell" stuff is not uplifting, nor does it build up the Body. It is better not to even read it.

Regards

 

[Heidi]

I have no problem in how Paul addresses deception. Are you saying your methods are the same, Heidi?
Also, keep in mind that Jesus was addressing hypocrisy---they kept the law to the letter. They lacked humility and i'm sure Jesus hated that among other things.

BTW, I was agreeing with what lovely said more than anything else.

Since I agree with Paul and Jesus, then how are my methods different? Do you think they should be different than theirs? :o Proverbs 28:23, "He who rebkes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue." ;-)

 

[Heidi]

Well, that is good to hear. I have noticed that my spirituality was hurt when I read the posts of this "Heidi", those hateful posts that pretend to be from the Spirit of God, when in reality, merely stir the hate pot... I found it difficult to not want to get in an argument with this person. Fortunately, by the grace of God, I did not respond in kind. I found that when I put her on my "Ignore" list, my spirituality has improved!! I have found when I tune out the shrill and hateful posts of such people as Heidi and Doppleganger, I am able to have better conversation, more spiritually uplifting, with my brothers and sisters in Christ who happen to disagree with Catholicism.

We may disagree on specifics, but this "you are going to hell" stuff is not uplifting, nor does it build up the Body. It is better not to even read it.

Regards

So do you think that Paul was hateful when he called false apostles "deceitful workmen masquerading as apostles of Christ"? :o And the people he called deceitful are those who pass along a different gospel than the one he preached such as those who pass along the notions that Mary was sinless, a perpetual virgin, ascended in the same manner that Jesus did, that we should carve statues, pray to people and call our religious leaders "Father". So how is it my fault that the Catholics do what Paul says not to do? :o Those are God's words, not mine. Do you not agree with them? If not, then if you have a problem with them, talk to God about it. ;-)

 

[destiny]

Since I agree with Paul and Jesus, then how are my methods different? Do you think they should be different than theirs? :o Proverbs 28:23, "He who rebkes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue." ;-)

Perhaps the only thing missing that keeps you from being exactly like Paul is a thorn in the flesh. :

 

[Heidi]

Perhaps the only thing missing that keeps you from being exactly like Paul is a thorn in the flesh. :

Oh, I'm sure I've got many more thorns than Paul did. But my question is; why do you personally attack me instead of addressing the OP? I haven't personally attacked you. I've simply presented what Paul says about how to recognize false teachers and since the Catholics teach a different gospel than Paul preached, how in the world is that my fault? Do you think we should disagree with Paul and praise Christians who preach a different gospel than Paul preached? :o If so, please explain why. :o So stick to the issues rather than to attack individuals here, Destiny.

 

[destiny]

Oh, I'm sure I've got many more thorns than Paul did. But my question is; why do you personally attack me instead of addressing the OP? I haven't personally attacked you. I've simply presented what Paul says about how to recognize false teachers and since the Catholics teach a different gospel than Paul preached, how in the world is that my fault? Do you think we should disagree with Paul and praise Christians who preach a different gospel than Paul preached? :o If so, please explain why. :o So stick to the issues rather than to attack individuals here, Destiny.

I didn't personally attack you, Heidi. I was commenting about a shared feeling I had with something lovely said.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I will admit it seems people shoot themselves in the foot when they share a truth and then say something like, "but they cant hear because they are a cult" right behind whatever truth/or correction they just executed. ..It kinda smacks with personal "attitude" when I read that sort of thing.
I know some here won't get what i'm saying, but I know some will know exactly what I mean. I am not perfect in my arguments/debating either, i'm sure.

 

[Heidi]

I didn't personally attack you, Heidi. I was commenting about a shared feeling I had with something lovely said.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I will admit it seems people shoot themselves in the foot when they share a truth and then say something like, "but they cant hear because they are a cult" right behind whatever truth/or correction they just executed. ..It kinda smacks with personal "attitude" when I read that sort of thing.
I know some here won't get what i'm saying, but I know some will know exactly what I mean. I am not perfect in my arguments/debating either, i'm sure.

Since they fit the definition of a cult (which I already described), then please tell me why they aren't a cult. No cult likes to be calld a cult. So are you claiming that there aren't any cults because people don't like to be called a cult? :o Heavens no. Cult members no more like to be called cult members than the Phraisees like to be called children of the devil. But that doesn't at all mean that Jesus was wrong when he said that the father of the Pharisees was the devil. And he told them that for their own good so that they'll be without excuse and some of them repent.

So no, it's never good to compromise the truth to spare people's feelings, especially when their own eternal soul is at stake. And from Paul's words, the eternal souls of the Catholics are indeed at stake when they pass along different gospels than the apostles did. The first thing one does when trying to de-program cult members is to tell them they're involved in a cult because they themselves can't see it. So my concern is for their eternal souls over their transient pride. "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation but worldly sorrow brings death." :

 

[aj830]

Since they fit the definition of a cult (which I already described), then please tell me why they aren't a cult. No cult likes to be calld a cult. So are you claiming that there aren't any cults because people don't like to be called a cult? Heavens no. Cult members no more like to be called cult members than the Phraisees like to be called children of the devil. But that doesn't at all mean that Jesus was wrong when he said that the father of the Pharisees was the devil. And he told them that for their own good so that they'll be without excuse and some of them repent.

So no, it's never good to compromise the truth to spare people's feelings, especially when their own eternal soul is at stake. And from Paul's words, the eternal souls of the Catholics are indeed at stake when they pass along different gospels than the apostles did. The first thing one does when trying to de-program cult members is to tell them they're involved in a cult because they themselves can't see it. So my concern is for their eternal souls over their transient pride. "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation but worldly sorrow brings death."

And just because someone says something is a cult doesn't mean it is one. I didn't catch your definition of a cult but it would have to be pretty twisted to have the Catholic Church fit that category. Anybody can make their own "definition" of something but that doesn't mean it is right. Many atheists will say all religions are cults that doesn't mean they are right. I could say you are in a cult but it doesn't make it right. And no Heidi, Catholics are not in a cult.

 

[destiny]

Since they fit the definition of a cult (which I already described), then please tell me why they aren't a cult. No cult likes to be calld a cult. So are you claiming that there aren't any cults because people don't like to be called a cult? :o Heavens no. Cult members no more like to be called cult members than the Phraisees like to be called children of the devil. But that doesn't at all mean that Jesus was wrong when he said that the father of the Pharisees was the devil. And he told them that for their own good so that they'll be without excuse and some of them repent.

So no, it's never good to compromise the truth to spare people's feelings, especially when their own eternal soul is at stake. And from Paul's words, the eternal souls of the Catholics are indeed at stake when they pass along different gospels than the apostles did. The first thing one does when trying to de-program cult members is to tell them they're involved in a cult because they themselves can't see it. So my concern is for their eternal souls over their transient pride. "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation but worldly sorrow brings death." :

I think you missed my point but I won't continue to argue with you.
Peace!

 

[Heidi]

And just because someone says something is a cult doesn't mean it is one. I didn't catch your definition of a cult but it would have to be pretty twisted to have the Catholic Church fit that category. Anybody can make their own "definition" of something but that doesn't mean it is right. Many atheists will say all religions are cults that doesn't mean they are right. I could say you are in a cult but it doesn't make it right. And no Heidi, Catholics are not in a cult.

All cults:

1) See their leader as having some sort of divinity
2) Ask their followers to let them interpret the bible for them
3) Threaten their followers with death or hell if they disagree with the cult leader
4) Worship objects and people rather than God alone
5) Make up their own bible
6) Rely on the tradition of its doctrine over the word of God

The Catholic church fits all of the above. They call the pope "Our Holy Father" when Jesus tells us we have only one Father and he is in heaven. They also give divine authority to the pope to interpret scripture for them. They also threaten hell to those who disagree with them because they claim they have the only true doctrine. They also pray and bow down to people and objects rather than to God alone. They also have a catechism that is used in place of the Word of God. And they indoctrinate their followers to follow tradition over the word of God.

So yes indeed, Catholicism is a cult. But non-cults only follow the words of the one true God and have no other doctrines above the bible.

 

[aj830]

1) See their leader as having some sort of divinity

Nope sorry. Catholics have one God, the Most Holy Trinity.

2) Ask their followers to let them interpret the bible for them

So Cults are only Christian now as by your definition because of you using the term Bible. Either way we allow the Holy Spirit to guide the Church

3) Threaten their followers with death or hell if they disagree with the cult leader

Sorry. Don't believe in that either. The Church has never condemned any one to hell. Not Judas, not Pilate, not Hitler. That is for God alone.

4) Worship objects and people rather than God alone

Wrong again. Worship only God

5) Make up their own bible

The Catholic Church was the one that compiled the Bible. I would think we would know what belongs in it and what doesn't.

6) relies on the traidtion of its doctrine over the word of God

We don't fit this one either. We rely solely on the Word of God handed down orally and written.

The Catholic church fits all of the above. They call the pope "Our Holy Father" when Jesus tells us we have only one father and he is in heaven. They also give divine authority to the ope to interpret scripture for them. They also threated hell to those who disagree withthem because they claim they have the only true doctrine. They also have a catechism that is used in place of the Word of God. and they indoctrinate their followers to follow tradition over the word of God.

But non-cults only follow the words of the one true God. So yes indeed, Catholicism is a cult.

I believe I answered all these above. You just tried togo and make upyour own definition of what a cult is so you could attack the Church. And even with your definition the Catholic Church fits NONE of the criteria.