For Who Did Christ Die? by John Owen

[JLB]

All people are sinners, but all people arent Gods elect.

You continue to talk in circles and ignore the scriptures.

The elect refers to the Jews. The scripture is clear.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


The scriptures say that Paul desired for the elect to also be saved.

 

[electedbyhim]

Please point out the word "elect" in Ephesians 1:3-14

Seriously?

Do you know anything about the doctrines of the Bible ot theology?

 

[electedbyhim]

You continue to talk in circles and ignore the scriptures.

The elect refers to the Jews. The scripture is clear.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


The scriptures say that Paul desired for the elect to also be saved.

Who are the Elect of God

Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” Every four years in the U.S., we “elect” a President—i.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God.

As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved (predestination) isn’t controversial. It is a biblical truth (John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5). What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election. One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4).

The second main view is the Augustinian view, which essentially teaches that God not only divinely elects those who will have faith in Jesus Christ, but also divinely elects to grant to these individuals the faith to believe in Christ. In other words, God’s election unto salvation is not based on a foreknowledge of an individual’s faith, but is based on the free, sovereign grace of Almighty God.

The difference boils down to this: who has the ultimate choice in salvation—God or man? In the first view (the prescient view), man has control; his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God’s election. God can provide the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, but man must choose Christ for himself in order to make salvation real. Ultimately, this view diminishes the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty. This view puts the Creator's provision of salvation at the mercy of the creature; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. In reality, the prescient view of election is no view of election at all, because God is not really choosing—He is only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.

In the Augustinian view, God has control; He is the one who, of His own sovereign will, freely chooses those whom He will save. He not only elects those whom He will save, but He actually accomplishes their salvation. Rather than simply make salvation possible, God chooses those whom He will save and then saves them. This view puts God in His proper place as Creator and Sovereign.

The Augustinian view is not without problems of its own. Critics have claimed that this view robs man of his free will. If God chooses those who will be saved, then what difference does it make for man to believe? Why preach the gospel? Furthermore, if God elects according to His sovereign will, then how can we be responsible for our actions? These are all good and fair questions that need to be answered. A good passage to answer these questions is Romans 9, the most in-depth passage dealing with God’s sovereignty in election.

The context of the passage flows from Romans 8, which ends with a great climax of praise: “For I am convinced that... [nothing] in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39). This leads Paul to consider how a Jew might respond to that statement. While Jesus came to the lost children of Israel and while the early church was largely Jewish in makeup, the gospel was spreading among the Gentiles much faster than among the Jews. In fact, most Jews saw the gospel as a stumbling block (1 Corinthians 1:23) and rejected Jesus. This would lead the average Jew to wonder if God’s plan of election has failed, since most Jews reject the message of the gospel.

Throughout Romans 9, Paul systematically shows that God’s sovereign election has been in force from the very beginning. He begins with a crucial statement: “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Romans 9:6). This means that not all people of ethnic Israel (that is, those descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) belong to true Israel (the elect of God). Reviewing the history of Israel, Paul shows that God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. Just in case anyone thinks that God was choosing these individuals based on the faith or good works they would do in the future, he adds, “Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (Romans 9:11).

At this point, one might be tempted to accuse God of acting unjustly. Paul anticipates this accusation in v. 14, stating plainly that God is not unjust in any way. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (Romans 9:15). God is sovereign over His creation. He is free to choose those whom He will choose, and He is free to pass by those whom He will pass by. The creature has no right to accuse the Creator of being unjust. The very thought that the creature can stand in judgment of the Creator is absurd to Paul, and it should be so to every Christian, as well. The balance of Romans 9 substantiates this point.

Ephesians 1:5 tells us that God “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.” According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on God. This predetermination is based on His sovereignty, unchanging character (Malachi 3:6), foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 11:2), love (Ephesians 1:4-5), and plan and pleasure (Ephesians 1:5). God’s desire is that all would be saved and come to repentance (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). He offers salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) and has made Himself plain to everyone so that everyone is without excuse (Romans 1:19-20).

Both predestination and personal responsibility are true—God is completely in control, and humanity makes choices and is completely accountable for those choices. The Bible does not present these as irreconcilable truths (as theological traditions sometimes do). We learn that, if God elected those He foreknew, He both knows His creation before it exists and He determines important things about His creation. If God is great enough to be the Creator of all, then He is not stumped by the mutual existence of His sovereignty and human volition, choice, and responsibility.

 

[brightfame52]

You continue to talk in circles and ignore the scriptures.

The elect refers to the Jews. The scripture is clear.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


The scriptures say that Paul desired for the elect to also be saved.

All people are sinners, but all people aren't Gods elect.

 

[brightfame52]

Please point out the word "elect" in Ephesians 1:3-14

In Vs 4 its translated chosen Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Its the greek word eklegomai :

to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
2. choosing one for an office
3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

Jesus uses the same word to identify Gods elect Mk 13:20

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

[JLB]

Who are the Elect of God

The Jews; God's chosen people.

As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved

... is no where found in the bible.

Paul was a sinner, a man that persecuted the Church.

When was Paul saved?

1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Ananias Baptizes Saul
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” Acts 9:1-16

• Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:20

Paul was chosen for a purpose (not chosen for salvation); to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake

 

[electedbyhim]

The Jews; God's chosen people.



... is no where found in the bible.

Paul was a sinner, a man that persecuted the Church.

When was Paul saved?

1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Ananias Baptizes Saul
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” Acts 9:1-16

• Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:20

Paul was chosen for a purpose (not chosen for salvation); to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake

Are you saying Paul was not saved, he was an unregenerate?

 

[JLB]

All people are sinners, but all people aren't Gods elect.

God's elect are the Jews.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Paul desired that the elect also may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

How do the elect obtain salvation?



JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

God's elect are the Jews.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Paul desired that the elect also may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

How do the elect obtain salvation?



JLB

Paul was not a Christian?

 

[JLB]

In Vs 4 its translated chosen Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Its the greek word eklegomai :

to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
2. choosing one for an office
3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

Jesus uses the same word to identify Gods elect Mk 13:20

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The only way anyone is saved is through Christ Jesus. As we all see, Paul points out that we were once unsaved, walking according to the prince of the lower of the air, dead in trespasses and sins, until we hear the Gospel, the message of Jesus Christ, by which we receive faith - by grace you have been saved through faith



1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:1-9


No one is saved apart from hearing and believing the Gospel message of salvation.


Until we hear and believe the Gospel, we are by nature children of wrath, just as the others.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you saying Paul was not saved, he was an unregenerate?

I'm saying Paul was not saved, until he encountered Jesus Christ.


we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ Ephesians 2:3-5

• Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2

JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul was not a Christian?

Paul was not a Christian until he encountered the Lord on the road to Damascus, and became a Christian.


we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ Ephesians 2:3-5

• Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2

Do you believe Paul was born saved?

 

[electedbyhim]

Paul was not a Christian until he encountered the Lord on the road to Damascus, and became a Christian.


we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ Ephesians 2:3-5

• Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2

Do you believe Paul was born saved?

Paul, like all Christians, was chosen before the foundation of the world (elected).

On the road to Damascas is when the Lord chose to convert him.

Act 9:3 And as he was traveling, it happened that when he was approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
Act 9:4 and falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
Act 9:5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
Act 9:6 but rise up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”
Act 9:7 And the men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
Act 9:8 And Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. Leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.

 

[JLB]

Paul, like all Christians, was chosen before the foundation of the world (elected).

On the road to Damascas is when the Lord chose to convert him.

Act 9:3 And as he was traveling, it happened that when he was approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
Act 9:4 and falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
Act 9:5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
Act 9:6 but rise up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”
Act 9:7 And the men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
Act 9:8 And Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. Leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.

Do you believe Paul was saved (regenerated) before He encountered Christ on the road to Damascus?

 

[electedbyhim]

Do you believe Paul was saved (regenerated) before He encountered Christ on the road to Damascus?

Of course not, he was killing and persecuting Christians.

 

[JLB]

Of course not, he was killing and persecuting Christians.

 

[brightfame52]

God's elect are the Jews.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Paul desired that the elect also may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

How do the elect obtain salvation?



JLB

All people are sinners, but all people aren't Gods elect.

 

[brightfame52]

The only way anyone is saved is through Christ Jesus. As we all see, Paul points out that we were once unsaved, walking according to the prince of the lower of the air, dead in trespasses and sins, until we hear the Gospel, the message of Jesus Christ, by which we receive faith - by grace you have been saved through faith



1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:1-9


No one is saved apart from hearing and believing the Gospel message of salvation.


Until we hear and believe the Gospel, we are by nature children of wrath, just as the others.





JLB

In Vs 4 its translated chosen Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Its the greek word eklegomai :

to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
2. choosing one for an office
3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

Jesus uses the same word to identify Gods elect Mk 13:20

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

Do you believe Paul was born saved?

From the penalty of sin yes he was, but from the power of sin no

 

[JLB]

All people are sinners, but all people aren't Gods elect.

Elect refers to the Jews.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Please explain how the elect may also obtain salvation.