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Yes, Barbarian. We do have other ways to "prove" what we assume.

Hebrews 4:12-13
English Standard Version (ESV)

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
 
Sparrowhawke - Yes, Barbarian. We do have other ways to "prove" what we assume.

But it wasn't "proved" by assumption or presupposition but rather the accumulated evidence by various scientific disciplines. The fact that these different disciplines, astronomy, mathematics, geology, etc., should be so complementary as to the age of the universe and earth should establish validity in their findings, as opposed to some conspiracy or manipulation of evidence.
 
Our discussion is similar to people on two sides of a constitutional debate both saying, "Well, we go by what the Constitution says, whereas you guys don't."

Barbarian takes a position that accommodates evidence gathered by science and harmonizes what is known (by science) to be true and sees it as harmonious with Scripture. I take a position that harmonizes what is known (as given by God's testimony) and seek to harmonize it with what may be observed. One is not necessarily "better" than another.

I'll rather wait until such time as we know even as we are known so that there is no further need for debate. The fact that we don't agree on the finer points only proves that we have not yet been brought fully into what is promised.

Jamsie, your allegation of "conspiracy" and "manipulation" is unfounded. I don't take your claim seriously and would guess that you too believe that the message found in the Word of Truth is relevant and needed for our salvation. That message isn't about the age of the earth. It's about our Creator God who extends His offer through His son to each of us, that we may become more like Him.
 
Sparrowhawke -Jamsie, your allegation of "conspiracy" and "manipulation" is unfounded.

I apologize as I should not have directed this to you, it was in relation to a previous post by another.

I don't take your claim seriously and would guess that you too believe that the message found in the Word of Truth is relevant and needed for our salvation. That message isn't about the age of the earth. It's about our Creator God who extends His offer through His son to each of us, that we may become more like Him.

In total agreement, and again rather sloppy of me to post in a haphazard direction.
 
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword

It is, indeed. Two-edged. The traditional take is no less valid than the creationist take. We can't make a decision from scripture, which takes no position on evolution. There is, however, the evidence Paul referred to, which settles the issue.
 
It is, indeed. Two-edged. The traditional take is no less valid than the creationist take. We can't make a decision from scripture, which takes no position on evolution. There is, however, the evidence Paul referred to, which settles the issue.
To Barbarian,
"... the evidence Paul referred to..."

Be more explicit, please?
___________________
To Jamsie: Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking there was something that I didn't understand about what I thought I heard you say. :oops2
 
Sparrowhawke - "... the evidence Paul referred to..." Be more explicit, please?

If I may interject...I would simply suggest that from Romans 1:20 "...being understood from what has been made".
The understanding comes from the human enterprises comprised in the various disciplines of science. It is not a question of "Who" but rather a question of "how" and though we can't "fathom what God has done from beginning to end"...we are capable of astounding insights and limited general understanding.
 
Romans 1:20 does speak of understanding. Let me ask you, "What is it exactly that we are to understand?"

It's true that we are give insight into what can not be seen from those things that may be seen. Romans 1:20 speaks to us about the invisible things of God and His invisible attributes stating that they are clearly seen from those things that are visible. Other Scriptures admonish us to behold both the goodness and severity of God. His goodness may be seen in that He makes the sun to shine on both good and evil alike. His severity may be seen and has been made visible to us.

Rom. 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Rom. 11:20-22 Today our blessing is different from theirs as is our punishment. Jesus said, "Send rain on the just and unjust" Both receive physical blessings of God.

Rom. 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." see also Heb. 5:9 IJohn 1:9-10 IJohn 2:1-4

Acts 8:18-24 If we sin - let us repent and confess - least we be rejected as they were rejected. Repent that we might continue in the goodness of God.

Romans 1:20 speaks of the Creator and His attributes that may be seen in that which was created. It is my hope that this becomes clear as you continue to study and that the Lord reveal His will to you, that we may become more like Him.
 
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St. Paul's observation that creation itself is an authoritative source of understanding about God, His power and majesty, and His creation, is important. As St. Augustine noted, we can be as wrong in our understanding of scripture as we can be about science. We should be prepared to revise our opinions in light of new evidence.
 
Thank you for the reply, but I still do not see how you are able to stretch our insight into the invisible attributes of God, as seen through nature, into a scientific view or contrive it to authorize any view about creation itself. I agree that what the Holy Spirit declared through Paul is important but question its import on our conversation at hand.

What specifically in Romans 1:20 may be applied to this conversation, either side? Let's take an example and see how it may be applied; the power of God, let's say. When we look at creation we may immediately notice the seemingly infinite detail and implied care that He put into the world. In modern times we may try as hard as we are able, using everything at our command, to discover the ends of the universe and yet? The creation itself eludes discover to the effect that some have said that the outer parts of the universe are traveling away from us faster than the limits of information itself (see article posted at Cornell University, "Is the universe expanding faster than the speed of light?" for more)

Even without the benefit of the Bible we are able to see (from our examination of creation itself) that God is powerful:
“O Sovereign LORD! You have made the heavens and earth by Your great power. Nothing is too hard for You!” (Jeremiah 32:17)
Is it possible that God has hidden things? Are there things that have been seen to be beyond our understanding? It is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness; and again, "the Lord knows the reasoning's of the wise, that they are useless..."
Job 5:13
He catches the wise in their craftiness, and the schemes of the wily are swept away.

To those who say, "Nay! But this can not apply to me..." We hear again:

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Worldly knowledge is laid aside (made to become folly) in order that He make men wise unto salvation. God chooses the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Barb, I'm not speaking about you, for I do think better of you than this, but it is impossible for some to apprehend or even comprehend the mysteries of His grace toward us, but these are the very things that are given to newborn babes in Christ and serve as invitation to join us to Him.

Job's friend spoke of how God can take (or catch) the wise politician of that time in their own snare. Paul applied it to Gentile Philosophers or rather, the false teachers found among Christians who plot schemes designed to corrupt or oppose the simple truth of the Gospel. We see this theme throughout the Bible and even Jesus states frankly, "Unless you become like these little ones (children) you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 18:1-4
“Who then is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?”

Jesus called a little child to himself, and set him in the middle of them, and said, “Most certainly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Whoever therefore humbles himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.

These things too are seen in creation. Our own craftiness becomes the very snare to catch those who think themselves so wise.

The Romans 1:20 Scripture may have been the basis for Louis Armstrong's song:
“ I see trees of green,
red roses too,
I see them bloom for me and for you,
...and I think to myself,
what a wonderful world
…”

Many of the people to whom were given the Good News were simple folk. Fishermen, farmers, care providers. One of the lessons that was taught concerns what we think of as "need". Jesus told us, assured us, “Don’t worry about everyday life---whether you have enough food, drink and clothes. Doesn’t life consist of more than food and clothing? Look at the birds."

Such things as our Father's ability to provide is taught to us through nature itself.
 
Barbarian said:
Here, you're assuming what you propose to prove. Scripture doesn't say anything like that.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Scripture says it right here "on the 6th day" unless your going by that man Augustine he's just a man a man that thinks a six day creation is absurd Adam was created by God he had no mother are you suggesting he had a mother, and Eve she came from Adams rib no umbilical cord there..

tob
 
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Scripture says it right here "on the 6th day"

Of course, "yom" (the word sometimes translated as "day") can also mean "eons", "in my day", and various other things. Some people re-interpreted it to mean "24-hour day", but they are just men with their own ideas.

unless your going by that man Augustine he's just a man a man that thinks a six day creation is absurd

Yes, "morning" and "evening" are absurd with no sun to have them. That was the point.

Adam was created by God he had no mother

Scripture does not say he had no mother. That is man's addition to God's word.

are you suggesting he had a mother, and Eve she came from Adams rib no umbilical cord there..

Scripture doesn't say they lacked umbilical cords, either. That is another addition. Men often think they can say it better than God did. But often, that leads to error, as it did this time.
 
Your going out on a limb here Barbarian I'm sure all the angels in heaven are watching this..

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Are you saying God has an umbilical cord..

tob

*edit: wait a minute its worse than that your saying Adam and Eve evolved aren't you?
 
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Sparrowhawke - Is it possible that God has hidden things? Are there things that have been seen to be beyond our understanding?

I think there is no doubt that humanity will never have all the answers but that certainly doesn’t mean that considerable knowledge can’t be obtained through science. Ecclesiastes 3:11 clearly states our limits, yet Romans 1:20 in no way implies the pursuit to comprehend the world around us is a pointless effort. (I believe the verses you list support the foolishness of man for not recognizing the “hand” of God in all things)

As you note “Worldly knowledge is laid aside” but I believe the knowledge laid aside is that which dismisses God as the creator and sustainer of all things. How can we discount the amazing strides in all areas of science because scientists in general reject the God we serve, yet we clearly see it as acknowledging His almightiness. Truth always stands firm and never falters whether one chooses to accept or deny.

From my perspective it is foolish to believe that any attempt to harmonize science with scripture is somehow heretical. As a command mediate creationist I in no way set science above the Word of God but I clearly see evidence from science allowed in Genesis 1.
 
Your going out on a limb here Barbarian

I accept His word as it is. If that's out on a limb, then so be it.

I'm sure all the angels in heaven are watching this..

More importantly, God is watching. Live your life, with that knowledge.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Are you saying God has an umbilical cord..

Are you saying God is anatomically male and female? Because that's what it says, if you re-interpret it to mean a physical image. God doesn't have nostrils or an umbilicus, or any other anotomical feature. As Jesus teaches, God is a spirit and a spirit had no bones.
 
Jamsie, thank you for your reply.

But before we go too far, I will ask you to notice that I have not said anything about heresy. You do not find in me any strong opposition to what you think happened. Further, I have listened and have studied many sources and I believe this of you as well. My preference, while reading the word of God is simple. Rather than proposing some rather controversial (and dogmatic) solution, it is my firm position that I, like Job, was not there when God created the heavens and the earth. To me (and notice, I am speaking of me now) a day is a day. I've studied the word in Hebrew and there is support for the 24 hour period. To deny this and insist that a day may mean anything other than a 24 hour period (I'll speak more of that in a moment) isn't "heresy". It's just another thought, one contrary to mine. What humble minded person may insist that he or she knows without any doubt what God has declared without any consideration of the thoughts of others? The declaration of God actually forms matter; I too am formed by the declaration, not the other way around.

Those who claim that any who disagree are heretic also claim their own infallibility, which is not something that I have been given. When the Lord spoke to Job, he asked several very pointed questions about nature. The point that God made to that man applies to all men, to all of us, to me, perhaps especially.

The first query to Job, which is relevant still to God’s critics is, “ Who are you to question my wisdom with such ignorance?” God thundered on, “Who defined the boundaries of the sea as it burst from the womb?…Have you explored the springs from which the sea comes?…Do you know where the depths of death are located? Can you hold back the movements of the stars? Are you able to restrain the Pleiades or Orion? Can you shout to the clouds and make it rain?…Who provides food for the ravens when their young cry out to God as they wander about in hunger?…Where does the light come from, and where does the darkness go, Can you take it to it’s home?… Have you visited the treasury of the snow, have you seen where the hail is made and stored?…Where is the home of the east wind?”
Nature proves the awesome power of the creator. Nature directs humans to understand we are not God’s equal and insists those who believe such things are ignorant. I could speak on and on about the number of such things that I am exposed to during my pursuit of my education (so called). Don't even get me started on the branch of Psychology called "Ethics". But my only point is that we are not as smart as we sometimes think ourselves to be and it doesn't matter how much data we've collected to prove that we are.

Regarding my point earlier about the period of time in a day, I've been taught about something called "The Big-Bang". We are told that we may still hear the "echo" of that event in the form of CMB (Background Microwave Cosmic Radiation). This cosmic background microwave radiation is assumed to be left over from the bang-big. Some scientists are dismissive of earlier events. We hear, for instance that "since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them," (The Beginning of Time by Stephen Hawkin.)

This summation agrees with my belief as well. There are no observational consequences. Scientists have "cut them out of the theory" and have in essence then suggested that God can not be measured by Man. I agree but I don't think that is what he meant to say. Scientists have now theorized what happened during the first fragment of a second after the Big-Bang. We are told of the "Plank Era", the "Grand Unification Era", the "ElectroWeak Era", and within the space of 20 minutes, the cooling and formation of protons, neutrons and electrons of hydrogen and helium atoms (see
Timeline of the universe, by Robert Matthews published by The Guardian in the Science/Astronomy section for more). Such grand theories, are they not? If all the events and "eras" of time happened in a fragment of a second (according to the theory) -- and if we can conceive of that?? Eras within the space of less than a second of time? Well, it should not be too much of a stretch to consider what God declared as well as the time-frame provided in Genesis. But those who promote such things balk at the thought that God knew what a "day" was before the forth period of creation when the sun was made.

It's like they are saying, "Ah-ha! There can be no "day" before the sun." But in the same breath they say, "there are eras of time that happened during the first 1/1,000,000th of a second."

Admittedly, I have a strong preference for the 'eye witness' account over the speculations (oft times disputed as much as the religious accounts) simply because they were written in a way that a child can understand.

Little children, be not confused. Those who do good are good. --John, the Beloved.​

That is my conclusion: God is good. If you examine my writings you will see this theme repeated again and again. Rarely will you hear me speak of heresy simply because it's not my place to say such things, and certainly not about stuff I wasn't there to see. I've witnessed His goodness in my life and have been given great joy in so doing. I assume this to be true for all He calls. Even you, sir. Barbarian too.

~Sparrow
 
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That's not true Barbarian [edit by Moderator] God isn't male and female Eve was made from Adams rib as a helpmeet.. Adam and Eve were created "are you saying they evolved" you didn't answer to that... in heaven there isn't male or female

tob
 
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Barbarian said:

I'm thinking that's incorrect, i my opinion neither Adam or Eve had an umbilical cord, you can only have an umbilical cord if your born of woman..

tob

*edit: he was created not born
On the whole "belly button" issue we might do better to agree that we simply do not know. Amos 3:5 Can a bird fall in a trap on the earth, where no snare is set for him?
 
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