God No One Has Seen At Any Time

[Runningman]

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

In the context the Almighty isn't Jesus. Verse 6 says, "who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and power forever and ever! Amen."

The previously mentioned God is Jesus' God who he calls Father. Verse 8 says this is "the Almighty" which would be the Father. Jesus is never called the Almighty in the Bible.

Furthermore, the Almighty and the Lamb aren't the same person as Revelation 21:22 says, "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb..." because they are not the same person.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

I thought you understood this.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13

That doesn't say Jesus is God though. It would seem you are trying to make the connection between sharing a title with God that it automatically infers someone is God. That isn't true. There are a lot of titles Jesus and God don't share, such as Lord of Heaven and Earth and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for example. Furthermore, there are titles that God and Jesus share that other humans also share such as Lord and the first and last. See Matt 19:30.

The book of Revelation is just that, it reveals who Jesus Christ is.

Revelation 1:1 says the revelation of Jesus is what God gave him to show.

John 12
49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”

Jesus is YHWH, the LORD.

Not according to Psalm 110:1 and Psalm 2:7. What were you seeing that said otherwise?

The LORD of the Old Testament who spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last.

Correct and he also spoke through the mouth of Jesus the prophet in these "last days." The Son speaking in the past isn't a doctrine. There are no examples of Jesus speaking in the past.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

The word "who" isn't in the Greek of that passage. The RSV has the correct version because the "Spirit of Christ" isn't actually a person in this context. Furthermore, the passage you quoted proves they had no idea who the person would be that would become Jesus and had no suspicion that it would be "God made flesh."

1 Peter 1 (RSV)
10 The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation; 11 they inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory.

“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:17-19
JLB

First and last refers to a beginning and ending point. God doesn't have a beginning an end does He? That isn't about being God.

 

[JLB]

In the context the Almighty isn't Jesus. Verse 6 says, "who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and power forever and ever! Amen."

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the last, and therefore the Almighty.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” Revelation 1:11


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13


Jesus Christ is the First and Last, the Beginning and End, and therefore the Almighty.


Just as the Father is, so is the Son.

• that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:21-23

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the last, and therefore the Almighty.

Compare Revelation 1:4 and Revelation 1:18 below. The One who "is and was and is to come" isn't Jesus. They're different persons as revealed by the context. This is exactly why almost every Bible nowadays doesn't put red lettering in Revelation 1:8 because it isn't a quote by Jesus.

"The Almighty" is only ever used in reference to God the Father in Scripture, never Jesus one time.

Please see 2 Cor. 6:18; Rev. 4:8; 15:3; 16:7; 19:15; 21:22

Revelation 1
4John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spirits before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.


Revelation 1
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

 

[JLB]

Compare Revelation 1:4 and Revelation 1:18 below. The One who "is and was and is to come" isn't Jesus. They're different persons as revealed by the context. This is exactly why almost every Bible nowadays doesn't put red lettering in Revelation 1:8 because it isn't a quote by Jesus.

"The Almighty" is only ever used in reference to God the Father in Scripture, never Jesus one time.

Please see 2 Cor. 6:18; Rev. 4:8; 15:3; 16:7; 19:15; 21:22

Revelation 1
4John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spirits before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.


Revelation 1
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

Please address the scriptures I gave which pertain to the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End.

Do you recognize Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End.?

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


JLB

 

[JLB]

Compare Revelation 1:4 and Revelation 1:18 below. The One who "is and was and is to come" isn't Jesus.

The statement I made didn’t include saying Jesus was The One who is and was and is to come.

 

[JLB]

Compare Revelation 1:4 and Revelation 1:18 below. The One who "is and was and is to come" isn't Jesus. They're different persons as revealed by the context. This is exactly why almost every Bible nowadays doesn't put red lettering in Revelation 1:8 because it isn't a quote by Jesus.

"The Almighty" is only ever used in reference to God the Father in Scripture, never Jesus one time.

Please see 2 Cor. 6:18; Rev. 4:8; 15:3; 16:7; 19:15; 21:22

Revelation 1
4John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spirits before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.


Revelation 1
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. Revelation 1:9-20


Who do you believe was speaking to John here in these verses that I have in red letters?

God the Father?
The LORD Jesus Christ?

 

[Runningman]

Please address the scriptures I gave which pertain to the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End.

Oh but I have been answering your posts even after you repeat the same things. I am not dancing to your tune.

Do you recognize Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End.?

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


JLB

Correct. And Jesus isn't the Almighty because he isn't the Lord God who is and was and is to come.

Revelation 1
4John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spirits before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.


Revelation 1
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

 

[Runningman]

The statement I made didn’t include saying Jesus was The One who is and was and is to come.

You quoted Revelation 1:8 which says the Almighty is the one who is and was and is to come. Revelation 1:4 proves that isn't Jesus. Very few have Revelation 1:8 as Jesus talking. Trinitarian commentators always know this.

 

[JLB]

Oh but I have been answering your posts even after you repeat the same things. I am not dancing to your tune.


Correct. And Jesus isn't the Almighty because he isn't the Lord God who is and was and is to come.

Revelation 1
4John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spirits before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.


Revelation 1
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

Yes. Jesus is the LORD God of the Old Testament who spoke through the mouth of the prophets. He is YHWH the LORD God.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.




He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13



He appeared to Moses as I Am.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Exodus 3:1-6,14


The Jews picked up stones to stone Him to death for claiming He was I AM!


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59



Jesus Christ is the LORD God Almighty, Who is coming with His saints on the Day of the LORD!



Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

Who is coming with the saints from Heaven on the Day of the LORD?


God the Father or God the Son?





JLB

 

[JLB]

You quoted Revelation 1:8 which says the Almighty is the one who is and was and is to come. Revelation 1:4 proves that isn't Jesus. Very few have Revelation 1:8 as Jesus talking. Trinitarian commentators always know this.

Jesus is the Almighty as the Father is the Almighty.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega and the Father is the Alpha and Omega.


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13

This is clearly Jesus speaking.


Do you believe Jesus is the Alpha and Omega?

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is the Almighty as the Father is the Almighty.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega and the Father is the Alpha and Omega.


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13

This is clearly Jesus speaking.


Do you believe Jesus is the Alpha and Omega?

Yes that's Jesus speaking for sure! And what were the words before Revelation 22:12-13?

Revelation 22
8And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to worship before the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things; 9and he says to me, “Behold—No! For I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; worship God.”

 

[Runningman]

Yes. Jesus is the LORD God of the Old Testament who spoke through the mouth of the prophets. He is YHWH the LORD God.

Not according to Scripture. Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as is plain in the below verses. Therefore, Jesus is not YHWH or the I AM.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

 

[Randy]

Yes that's Jesus speaking for sure! And what were the words before Revelation 22:12-13?

Revelation 22
8And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to worship before the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things; 9and he says to me, “Behold—No! For I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; worship God.”

So you believe "Jesus stated" => I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” as I read your words.

You asked me if Jesus ever stated He was before all things and I stated even if He did you wouldn't believe Him as you couldn't even accept His testimony that, He was, before Abraham was born.

You prove my statement.
As "He" stated:
"the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”


As John stated" in the beginning was the Word" and the Word was with God and God was the Word. That Word became flesh.

As Paul stated, "He is before all things"


But even now I know this falls on deaf ears.

 

[JLB]

Yes that's Jesus speaking for sure! And what were the words before Revelation 22:12-13?

Revelation 22
8And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to worship before the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things; 9and he says to me, “Behold—No! For I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; worship God.”

We worship Jesus Christ the Son, as God, and so do the angels, for He created the heavens and the earth.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews 1:5


Do you understand that the Son created all things in heaven and earth?


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10



Here is Christ speaking through Isaiah the prophet -

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6

again in Revelation


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


Jesus created all things as God, not God the Father but God the Son.


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

 

[Runningman]

So you believe "Jesus stated" => I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” as I read your words.

You asked me if Jesus ever stated He was before all things and I stated even if He did you wouldn't believe Him as you couldn't even accept His testimony that, He was, before Abraham was born.

Being before Abraham ≠ being "before all things."

You prove my statement.
As "He" stated:
"the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

In the context it isn't related to deity, but I will simply ask you the beginning and end of what?

As John stated" in the beginning was the Word" and the Word was with God and God was the Word. That Word became flesh.

John also stated that in the beginning was the Word of Life and said the Word is an it that was revealed or manifested in a man. 1 John 1:1-3

As Paul stated, "He is before all things"

Being the "image of the invisible God" ≠ being God even if that is literal.

But even now I know this falls on deaf ears.

I hear you and understand, just disagree.

 

[Runningman]

We worship Jesus Christ the Son, as God, and so do the angels,

We only obey God's commands and Jesus' Lordship. Neither of them ordered Christians to worship Jesus.

On the matter of worship, we only believe Jesus' command to worship the Father. This is prescriptive of what true and proper worship is.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews 1:5

Only worshipped in context of being the Son after he was created. Nothing about any sort of ongoing commandment to worship the Son.

When Jesus is bowed to he doesn't get any glory for it. All glory goes to the Father, the only true God.

Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Do you understand that the Son created all things in heaven and earth?


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

Hebrews 1:10 refers to the God who anointed the Son in Hebrews 1:9. Jesus isn't the creator.

Here is Christ speaking through Isaiah the prophet -

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6

again in Revelation


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13

In Revelation 22:8-13 Jesus denied being God and refused worship.

Revelation 22
8And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to worship before the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things; 9and he says to me, “Behold—No! For I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; worship God.”

Jesus created all things as God, not God the Father but God the Son.

Not according to scripture.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

The version of this verse you're using was proven to be false. No one puts it in Bibles anymore.

Here's the version that been proven to be the true translation:

1 Timothy 3
16By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,d
was seen by angels,
was proclaimed among the nations,
was believed in throughout the world,
was taken up in glory.

 

[JLB]

We only obey God's commands and Jesus' Lordship. Neither of them ordered Christians to worship Jesus.

On the matter of worship, we only believe Jesus' command to worship the Father. This is prescriptive of what true and proper worship is.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.

We certainly worship God the Father. However this does not mean we don’t worship the Son, who is God.

Here is what the scriptures say —

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

• but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

The Jews sought to kill Him for what they believed to be blasphemy; making Himself equal with God.


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

• Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”Then they took up stones to throw at Him;

again, The Jews sought to kill Him for claiming He was the great I AM, the God of Israel who appeared to Moses.


For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:22-23

• that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

If we honor the Father as God, then also we honor the Son as God.


As I have shown repeatedly, The Spirit of Christ the Son, The LORD, spoke through the mouth of the prophets and appeared to several people in the Old Testament.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

The scriptures are clear that no one has seen God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

• They were seeing The Son; God the Son.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8

We see this title is clearly the LORD Jesus Christ the Son.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13

Jesus is clearly the First and the Last, a title of the LORD God of the Old Testament.

“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
Isaiah 48:12-13

The Son laid the foundation of the earth and stretched out the heavens:

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Son Jesus Christ spoke through the prophets, and is the One who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth.


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:… “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10

Who was pierced, God the Father or The Son?


Scriptures of people worshipping Jesus -

When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.


Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” Matthew 14:33


And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.
Matthew 28:9

Also in heaven —


Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
Revelation 5:8-14

• All you have done is deny what the scriptures say.

The Eternal Godhead; Father, The Word, and Holy Spirit are worshipped as God.

The Name the Godhead has chosen to represent Them is Jesus; The Name above all names.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9


But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews 1:6





JLB

 

[Runningman]

We certainly worship God the Father. However this does not mean we don’t worship the Son, who is God.

Here is what the scriptures say —

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

• but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

The Jews sought to kill Him for what they believed to be blasphemy; making Himself equal with God.


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

• Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”Then they took up stones to throw at Him;

again, The Jews sought to kill Him for claiming He was the great I AM, the God of Israel who appeared to Moses.


For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:22-23

• that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

If we honor the Father as God, then also we honor the Son as God.


As I have shown repeatedly, The Spirit of Christ the Son, The LORD, spoke through the mouth of the prophets and appeared to several people in the Old Testament.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

The scriptures are clear that no one has seen God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

• They were seeing The Son; God the Son.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8

We see this title is clearly the LORD Jesus Christ the Son.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13

Jesus is clearly the First and the Last, a title of the LORD God of the Old Testament.

“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
Isaiah 48:12-13

The Son laid the foundation of the earth and stretched out the heavens:

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Son Jesus Christ spoke through the prophets, and is the One who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth.


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:… “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10

Who was pierced, God the Father or The Son?


Scriptures of people worshipping Jesus -

When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.


Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” Matthew 14:33


And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.
Matthew 28:9

Also in heaven —


Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
Revelation 5:8-14

• All you have done is deny what the scriptures say.

The Eternal Godhead; Father, The Word, and Holy Spirit are worshipped as God.

The Name the Godhead has chosen to represent Them is Jesus; The Name above all names.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9


But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews 1:6





JLB

Hello there again. We only adhere to the teachings of Jesus as Christians and he told us plainly to only worship the Father in John 4. To only pray to the Father in Matthew 6 and also only fast for the Father in Matthew 6.

While there are examples of Jesus being bowed to in the Bible, calling it worship, bowing isn’t the kind of worship God is seeking.

God is looking for sincere, true, spiritual sacrifice of a life of righteousness and love for Him. This is why we worship God the Father because that’s what Jesus directed us to do.

Bowing prostrate doesn’t capture this requirement in the examples of Jesus being bowed to in worship. This is why when Jesus is bowed to, he doesn’t get any glory for that either.

Only God the Father, the only true God (John 17:1-3) receives glory for Jesus being bowed to.

Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As a result, there are no examples of Jesus receiving true worship, prayer, or fasting in the Bible. I invite you to check. I hope that helps.

 

[Randy]

Being before Abraham ≠ being "before all things."


In the context it isn't related to deity, but I will simply ask you the beginning and end of what?


John also stated that in the beginning was the Word of Life and said the Word is an it that was revealed or manifested in a man. 1 John 1:1-3

Being the "image of the invisible God" ≠ being God even if that is literal.


I hear you and understand, just disagree.

Any beginning before being born as the Son of Man refutes your theology regardless of the nature found in Him.
Yes ,John testified to the eternal "Life" with the Father in the beginning. Life is only identified with something Living not a thing. That "Life" appeared whom they saw, heard and touched.

The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

 

[JLB]

Hello there again. We only adhere to the teachings of Jesus as Christians and he told us plainly to only worship the Father in John 4. To only pray to the Father in Matthew 6 and also only fast for the Father in Matthew 6.

Please post the scripture from John 4 that says we only worship the Father?

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:21-24

Where is the statement that says we are not to worship Jesus Christ the Son in these verses.

Where is the statement that says we only worship the Father?

Of course we worship the Father in Spirit and truth.

Of course we worship God the Father.

No where in any verse in scripture does it forbid us to worship Jesus the Son of God; the Lord of lords. The King of kings. The God of gods.


Again, all you have done is deny what the scriptures teach us.


I listed many scriptures that show Jesus is worshiped and Jesus is God.

When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.


Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” Matthew 14:33


And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.
Matthew 28:9

Also in heaven —


Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
Revelation 5:8-14

Jesus Christ the only Begotten of the Father is God; God the Son.



JLB