Hebrews 6:4-6 what does it mean?

[Guest]

God preforms the saving work in us but we must apply it. God saves actively in the form of grace. However grace can be recieved in vain, as Paul says. This is why we are warned to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and to take heed lest we think we stand and instead fall. Salvation is God's work but it is our job to allow him to work it effectively in us (sanctification). A believer can harden their heart to God, believe me its possible. If down the road it grows into absolute callousness they are on the road to destuction. We must "grow in respect to salvation" (1 Peter 2:2) in order to obtain "the outcome of your faith: the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9). OSAS is not real. Perseverance of the Saints comes closer to the idea but still misses the mark. Those who reject the Holy Spirit once saved can fall (Hebrews 6:4-6), else the repetitive warnings to believers are useless and in vain.

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh - the question that you need to first ask in regards to Hebrews is who is the author speaking to? Is the author speaking to Jewish believers or unbelievers.

I believe Hebrews addresses at least two groups - those that believe and those that do not. Therefore, you need to ask yourself, which group is Hebrews 6 addressing.

 

[jgredline]

Josh - the question that you need to first ask in regards to Hebrews is who is the author speaking to? Is the author speaking to Jewish believers or unbelievers.

I believe Hebrews addresses at least two groups - those that believe and those that do not. Therefore, you need to ask yourself, which group is Hebrews 6 addressing.

Exactly right to the best of my understanding.

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh - the question that you need to first ask in regards to Hebrews is who is the author speaking to? Is the author speaking to Jewish believers or unbelievers.

I believe Hebrews addresses at least two groups - those that believe and those that do not. Therefore, you need to ask yourself, which group is Hebrews 6 addressing.

I have long studied the warnings against apostacy in the Bible and it is far from isolated to Hebrews. And Hebrews 6:4-6 is not the only place in Hebrews where it warns against falling away. Paul had just gotten done though in Chapter five saying they ought to have been teachers by now, thus they are not matureing in their faith, thus nonetheless they are in the faith. Not to mention the language of Hebrews 6:4-6 is pretty inescapable for only believers can partake of the Holy Spirit. Else where in Hebrews he talks about partaking and uses the exact same Greek word metochos in conjunction with believers. I got sick though of seeing so many commentators who were usually good and consistant dance all around this issue of Hebrews 6:4-6 and twist (quite obviously too - by how they worded it) what was being said. But to show you where else partake (metochos) was used of true saved brethren:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus." (Hebrews 3:1) Notice they are holy, thus saved.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." (Hebrews 3:14) Notice there's even a condition to be a partaker, so this means those in Hebrews 6:4-6 had at one point held fast, and fallen from their divine communion with God.

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye illegitimate, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8) All who are God's have partaken of chastizement. And actually God will have chastized those who begin to run from Him once they were saved, in an attempt to save them from destruction but we can shrug off and ignore God's chastizement, thus why Hebrews also warns not to harden your hards and warns about drifting.

Overall you cannot be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and not be saved.

Also please read what I said about the seal of the Holy Spirit on the first page.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Bubba]

God preforms the saving work in us but we must apply it. God saves actively in the form of grace. However grace can be recieved in vain, as Paul says. This is why we are warned to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and to take heed lest we think we stand and instead fall. Salvation is God's work but it is our job to allow him to work it effectively in us (sanctification). A believer can harden their heart to God, believe me its possible. If down the road it grows into absolute callousness they are on the road to destuction. We must "grow in respect to salvation" (1 Peter 2:2) in order to obtain "the outcome of your faith: the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9). OSAS is not real. Perseverance of the Saints comes closer to the idea but still misses the mark. Those who reject the Holy Spirit once saved can fall (Hebrews 6:4-6), else the repetitive warnings to believers are useless and in vain.

God Bless,

~Josh

Cybershark,
What I think your not understanding is that God's grace is efficacious in that the Holy Spirit changes the heart to want to believe "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins..." Ephesians 2:1-10, Ezekiel 36:24-30. Yet, what Arminians, Pelagians etc. don't seem to grasp, is that you are spiritually dead not floating on the top of the water waiting to be rescued, but laying on the bottom with rigor mortis. Until one is made alive by God's Spirit he will never grasp the message of Grace, nor does he want to. I do not separate justification, Sanctification or Glorification it is all of grace Colossians 1:12-13 "giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins" It is a done deal the moment we believe through the power of God we are sealed as His forever. In regards to Sanctifying grace, He now is working out His purposes in our lives (Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:13) are there times where the individual can "quench the Holy Spirit"? When God leaves us to our own devices it happens all the time, which He will do to disipline us and show us our on going need of Him to accomplish anything of a Spiritual nature, as Jesus proclaimed, "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Note that He doesn't say "apart Me you can do a little something".
Grace, Bubba

 

[Guest]

I have long studied the warnings against apostacy in the Bible and it is far from isolated to Hebrews. And Hebrews 6:4-6 is not the only place in Hebrews where it warns against falling away. Paul had just gotten done though in Chapter five saying they ought to have been teachers by now, thus they are not matureing in their faith, thus nonetheless they are in the faith. Not to mention the language of Hebrews 6:4-6 is pretty inescapable for only believers can partake of the Holy Spirit. Else where in Hebrews he talks about partaking and uses the exact same Greek word metochos in conjunction with believers. I got sick though of seeing so many commentators who were usually good and consistant dance all around this issue of Hebrews 6:4-6 and twist (quite obviously too - by how they worded it) what was being said. But to show you where else partake (metochos) was used of true saved brethren:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus." (Hebrews 3:1) Notice they are holy, thus saved.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." (Hebrews 3:14) Notice there's even a condition to be a partaker, so this means those in Hebrews 6:4-6 had at one point held fast, and fallen from their divine communion with God.

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye illegitimate, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8) All who are God's have partaken of chastizement. And actually God will have chastized those who begin to run from Him once they were saved, in an attempt to save them from destruction but we can shrug off and ignore God's chastizement, thus why Hebrews also warns not to harden your hards and warns about drifting.

Overall you cannot be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and not be saved.

Also please read what I said about the seal of the Holy Spirit on the first page.

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh - I believe that Hebrews is addressing TWO seperate groups: Believers and un-Believers.

Therefore, I believe it is immerative in the understanding of Hebrews to be firmly aware of who is being addressed.

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh - I believe that Hebrews is addressing TWO seperate groups: Believers and un-Believers.

Therefore, I believe it is immerative in the understanding of Hebrews to be firmly aware of who is being addressed.

Uh huh. And who gets to choose the dividing line?

Those predisposed to reading the negative warnings as towards unbelievers I suppose, because surely believers wouldn't need a warning to keep on believing despite their circumstances...

I have a commentary bible that dances around on that 2 group theory and every 5 to 7 verses he has to annotate which group is being spoken to and then I back out and just read the Scripture without any mind to the commentary and I realized there is no way he could have drawn that conclusion and that it is rediculous to sweep the negative/hard sayings over to the "unbeliever side" whenever encountered. On another note several books say slightly negative things (in the form of warnings) to believers: James for example, which was written to believers not unbelievers.

Now Hebrews speaks in general sometimes using the logic of "if anyone does such & such..." but this general bunch could include unbelievers and believers at the same time, for both are mingled in the Church and one can be led by the other to either destuction (1 Corinthians 8:11; Romans 14:15) or eternal life.

 

[francisdesales]

What I think your not understanding is that God's grace is efficacious in that the Holy Spirit changes the heart to want to believe "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins..." Ephesians 2:1-10, Ezekiel 36:24-30. Yet, what Arminians, Pelagians etc. don't seem to grasp, is that you are spiritually dead not floating on the top of the water waiting to be rescued, but laying on the bottom with rigor mortis. Until one is made alive by God's Spirit he will never grasp the message of Grace, nor does he want to. I do not separate justification, Sanctification or Glorification it is all of grace

I agree with parts of what you say, Bubba, but others, I do not. I think it is a matter of emphasis and trying to see that Scriptures SEEM to take a dual stance on the issue of free will.

Yes, God works within us the desire to be saved. But we do not KNOW "how much" God pulls us to do "x" or "y" because we often DO NOT do "x" or "y", as Paul states in Romans 7. IF God manipulated man's will ENTIRELY, than the "elect" would never sin - since God does not cause sin (I presume you are not an extreme Calvinist - sorry for the label). The Scriptures appear to tell us that we will be judged based on our deeds - our following the Will of God. On the other hand, Jesus told us we can do NOTHING good without Him. There is some interplay when He abides in us, some "cooperation". It is something that is not measurable. We can only simply say that WE are going to have to suffer the consequences for OUR actions (since God will not be judged for "inadequately" drawing us to Him).

Now, are we spiritually dead as you describe? I think after reading Romans 2, and Paul notes that even the pagans have a "law onto themselves", we can see that God's Spirit does work outside of our devised boxes of denominations and religions. God's grace can come to the pagan who decides to follow that "law onto themselves" (Catholics call this 'natural law'), a law which is similar to the Decalogue given in writing to Moses. In Romans, Paul says that THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER! We know God from nature and the law written in our hearts. Thus, I see that God has given ALL men the basic devises to at least be disposed to responding to God's initiative in some manner. This does not sound like man is dead, in the sense that Martin Luther portrays, but rather, that man is wounded and needs God's help. Man can know God through the natural gifts given to men, yet faith is from God alone, and without faith, we cannot please God.

We cannot respond to God without God's grace, but in some way, we are held responsible for that response...

It is a complicated issue, Bubba, but I see enough Scriptures that point to both free will and God's sovereignty in an individual's actions, so we should take a more moderate line and recognize both. God rains His grace on all men, giving men the opportunity to respond to Him. The more we respond (because we are merely giving back what God gave - as St. Augustine said), the more we receive - while realizing that we CANNOT go to God and ask for payment - since everything good we have been given has been a gift.

God expects a response because He gave commandments to be obeyed. But we cannot obey Him without Him. If we consider God as our Father and we are His children, it would seem natural that the Father would be with us every step of the way as we "put on the mind of Christ".

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Josh
For the most part I have been very busy and have not had a chance to post much coupled with the fact that I do not feel well, but I feel that this needs addressing..It is not often one changes his stance on a certain belief and you appear to have changed your mind....I was under the impression you understood justification, but I guess not. So other than this Hebrews 6 passage, what other passages are bothering you?

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
It is obvious that the Lord has blessed you with some “gray matterâ€Â, because you do a good job supporting your views. Luther spoke of several types of Law’s (hang in there I know he is not top of the list for you) one was a law given to humanity in general to keep them from being as evil they could be. This law allows humanity to be half way civilized and creates an environment for the elect of God through out the ages. Thus, Romans 2 is this type of law. Yet, when it comes to that which brings us to a knowledge of Christ as our Savior, the blindness must be removed (Acts 26:17-18) first and this is a work of the Holy Spirit through the human vessel like Paul was. Acts 9 we have the account of his conversion where Ananias was the vessel for the Holy Spirit to work through. Then we read Ephesians 2:1-10 and you have the whole process explained in words; “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.†Now dead in trespasses and sins sounds down right ominous for us in regards to what we add to the solution, especially in light of the following “but God being rich in mercy…made us aliveâ€Â.
Then couple these verses with Romans 9:19-24; “You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?†and it leaves me with no doubt on who does what when it comes to salvation. Arminians at least agreed God has to intervene to get you in position to say yes to Jesus or you never will, the Pelagians think man in his own power he can say yes to Jesus and doesn’t need the supernatural power of God as a motivator. Then there are those like myself who believe that God changes the heart so completely we will never say no to Jesus at the point of our birth in Christ (Ezekiel 36:24-30,Acts 13:48, John 1:13).
Francisdesales, I am not foolish enough to say that man doesn’t have a freewill, he does, just not in spiritual things. After regeneration one could debate how much freewill the believer has in working out the purposes of God, but I tend to give God the glory and say if I do anything in a way pleasing to God, it is because He loves me and chooses out of His own freewill to use me as His instrument. I might add, that man is totally responsible for his sins nonetheless.
Grace, Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
It is obvious that the Lord has blessed you with some “gray matterâ€Â, because you do a good job supporting your views.

I appreciate your compliment. Most Calvinists that I have run into are quite intelligent. It is a cohesive theology - although I disagree with some of its points. Actually, I have a book from James Akins, a former Calvinist, who says that with some adjustments, a Catholic could follow TULIP... If interested, I will expound on that, and you may find that the broad theological diversity of Catholicism CAN encompass some of Calvinism's particular theology. For example, we do believe in predestination of the saved. Many Protestants do not know that.

Luther spoke of several types of Law’s (hang in there I know he is not top of the list for you) one was a law given to humanity in general to keep them from being as evil they could be. This law allows humanity to be half way civilized and creates an environment for the elect of God through out the ages. Thus, Romans 2 is this type of law. Yet, when it comes to that which brings us to a knowledge of Christ as our Savior, the blindness must be removed (Acts 26:17-18) first and this is a work of the Holy Spirit through the human vessel like Paul was.

I agree that God works through His Church to "save men and [bring men] to the knowledge of the truth". The full truth of God CANNOT be discovered by the natural abilities of men. Trinity? I don't think it is possible for an unaided man to discover that. And so forth. I believe, though, that there is precedent in Scriptures to widen WHERE the Spirit blows - and the Catholic Church at Vatican 2 has begun to realize that the "Church" CAN include people who formerly, they might not have considered. With Romans 2 in mind, I would like to point out 1 John 5:12, (He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life.) one of my favorite verses when I discuss God's desire to bring men to the truth, even if this truth is more on the natural plane - such as the Golden Rule... This Law can be followed (with the aid of the Spirit of God) even though the man may not have a clue about Jesus Christ's earthly life and the teachings of the Community He established.

Acts 9 we have the account of his conversion where Ananias was the vessel for the Holy Spirit to work through.

I agree, the Church is the normative vessel for men to learn about God's Will and the grace being offered by Jesus Christ. But we see even in the Gospels and indication that one does not have to be a VISIBLE member of the community, and can yet still do the Will of God. This, again, is something that Vatican 2 has recognized, with the realization that the Protestant communities

And whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him. But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. For he that is not against you, is for you. Mark 9:37b-40

Perhaps it may sound strange that a Catholic can put forward these verses, but I believe that God's Spirit blows beyond our imagination - and the works of our brothers, even if they are not in visible unity - are brothers nonetheless. Thus, He who has Christ abiding within and does the Will of the Father has life... Thus, the Church at Vatican 2 has defined the Church in a more catholic (universal) manner.

Then we read Ephesians 2:1-10 and you have the whole process explained in words; “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.†Now dead in trespasses and sins sounds down right ominous for us in regards to what we add to the solution, especially in light of the following “but God being rich in mercy…made us aliveâ€Â.

I think there is room for agreement there. We can do NOTHING good without Christ's Spirit abiding in us. Phil 2:12-13 shows the interaction between God's Spirit and our own desires, and it certainly appears that there is some interaction between God moving our wills - AND - that we are to work out our salvation by utilizing the gifts that God has given us. This maintains BOTH man's freedom (although we cannot choose God without Him giving us faith) AND God's sovereign grace that manifests the good fruit of the Spirit within us. I think I would disagree with someone who said we were merely beasts that God or the devil rides (Luther). God makes His will pleasant to our will, and we then do it. IF God's will totally overrode our own will, we would not be responsible at the day of judgment for disobeying God's commandments.

"You made me that way, God. How could I obey you without your overriding grace? It's YOUR fault"

I do not think we will be able to say that at judgment because God will show us that we received ADEQUATE grace to INDEED choose the good. When we do, it is God's doing, because without Him, we couldn't choose the good. But if we fail, it is our own fault because we chose to follow our own will that didn't correspond to God's will. Somewhere in all of that, we are held responsible - but we can NEVER say "God, you owe me" or "God, it's your fault I sinned".

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?â€Â

God's wrath is described in Romans 1 - it is leaving us men to our own devices. He knows that we cannot enter eternal happiness IF we choose to ignore what we can come to know by our own natural abilities - God's existence. Only through Him can we live life to the fullest here and in the next life. God's wrath, then, can be said to leave us to our own evil will AND which results in our own condemnation. Thus, we have room to see the OT point of view on God's Wrath as well as this NT view of God's Love rejected and He leaves us to our own sinfulness - which leads to what we have earned - the wages of sin is death...

Francisdesales, I am not foolish enough to say that man doesn’t have a freewill, he does, just not in spiritual things. After regeneration one could debate how much freewill the believer has in working out the purposes of God, but I tend to give God the glory and say if I do anything in a way pleasing to God, it is because He loves me and chooses out of His own freewill to use me as His instrument. I might add, that man is totally responsible for his sins nonetheless.

That is a difficult question to fully answer, because we really do not know to what means God is involved in a particular event and our decision process. When we choose good or evil, we don't know what we contribute and what God contributes before the decision is made. I know that I have the ability to say "no" to God, because I sin. I know that I have the ability to say "yes" to God because when faced with the choice of doing good or not, I sometimes choose the good. Scriptures tell us that God is intimately involved in every one of those decisions. As such, I will say this is a mystery and accept what Scriptures say - both God's grace and man's free will is somehow involved.

Thanks, I appreciate this discussion, as it touches on so much of our daily lives and how we choose good or evil.

Brother in Christ

 

[Guest]

To understand Hebrews 6:1-8, one needs to understand the situation in Hebrews 5:1-14 (especially 11-14).

Hebrews 5:11-14 states:

11Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

13For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

14But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Here, the author, is saying that the readers on his letter should have been mature in their faith by this time. They should be chewing on meat, rather than milk. The situations in 11-14 is immature Christians. The author says in vers 11 that they have become 'dull of hearing' - that they should have become 'teachers' (verse 12) they have need again (emphasis added) for someone "to teach them that elementary principles of the oracles fo God." (verse 12)

This leads us into the solution provided in Hebrew 6:1-8 to the situation presented in Hebrews 5:11-14.

Hebrews 6:1-8 states:

1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

3And this we will do, if God permits.

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Verse 1 starts with "therefore" - which provides the contuation from 5:14 - we are therefore supposed to 'leave the elemetary teachings' and press on to maturity. In other words, the recipients of the letter who have heard the basics are supposed to press on to maturity. They have heard the basics, now move to maturity.

The author gives a warning, a shock value, if you will to encourage them to press on to maturity in verses 6:4-6.

These verses are addressing those who have 'heard' but have not yet believed. And provide a warning that there will come a time when it will be too late for them to believe. THey have rejected the message of the Cross, even though they have heard the message, they have seen the results, by rejecting the message, the 'crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." (verse 6).

This is indeed a starke warning to those that have heard, but rejected.

 

[jgredline]

The author gives a warning, a shock value, if you will to encourage them to press on to maturity in verses 6:4-6.

These verses are addressing those who have 'heard' but have not yet believed. And provide a warning that there will come a time when it will be too late for them to believe. THey have rejected the message of the Cross, even though they have heard the message, they have seen the results, by rejecting the message, the 'crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." (verse 6).

This is indeed a starke warning to those that have heard, but rejected.

Yes!!! very well done....It is amazing to me how many folks believe that Hebrews 6:4-6 is addressing Christians...No place does it say they were Christians...As you said, these are folks who ''heard'' but it goes even further...Likely these folks had been witness to many miracles, they had participated in church events, likely even took communion with other true believers....I have as I am sure many off us have seen an example of this type of Folk in our own churches.....

Folks, these people were never ''Born Again''.....and further more they were Jews, not gentiles...These Jews went back to their traditions and back to living under the LAW...The same Law that condemns them...

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh
For the most part I have been very busy and have not had a chance to post much coupled with the fact that I do not feel well, but I feel that this needs addressing..It is not often one changes his stance on a certain belief and you appear to have changed your mind....I was under the impression you understood justification, but I guess not. So other than this Hebrews 6 passage, what other passages are bothering you?

Nothing is really "bothering me". Rather I had a rather good answer given to me in a way I never heard it before and it helped me tremendously in my understanding.

First of all it would be almost cliche to repeat the same old OSAS vs. Losing Salvation verses and it would be far too lengthy but let me boil it down for you in a nutshell what happened. After long debating the "cliche verses" (I'll call them) I accepted that there were verses that warned Christians all through out the Bible (aside from Hebrews 6:4-6 - I'm not a cop out on that verse, I promise) so I just hit the bottom line with a simple (yet complicated) question: "In the end if it is possible for someone to loose their salvation there has to be a specific event in which the Holy Spirit leaves." That is what I could not by any means get past no matter how much I tried. You'll see how I said to other people that I saw no provisions for that in Scripture. I used as my support verse on which to stand for the Holy Spirit never leaving that we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. However after a long strenuous process of trying to coerce someone into giving me a detailed and thoughtful post Francis gave it to me and it opened my eyes to what the seal really was. I had never stopped once to even think about what "seal" might mean and I just accepted the natural definition of it. But I discovered it wasn't talking about a "cork-like" seal. I gave a fairly detailed analysis of it on the first page of this thread. Go back and look at it.

Also other verses like in Revelation talk about Jesus removing the Church's lampstand, of which in the Gospels Jesus says that those who have a lamp do not put it under a bushel but rather place it on a lampstand. So removing their lamp stand removes the light from their life (John constrasts walking in the light and walking in darkness to speak of saved vs. unsaved people) and the lamp stand is removed thus it seems that they could have blown it if they didn't heed Jesus' final warning. Just a few things to look at. I'd be glad to discuss it with you. I always enjoy your feedback.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Yes!!! very well done....It is amazing to me how many folks believe that Hebrews 6:4-6 is addressing Christians...No place does it say they were Christians...As you said, these are folks who ''heard'' but it goes even further...Likely these folks had been witness to many miracles, they had participated in church events, likely even took communion with other true believers....I have as I am sure many off us have seen an example of this type of Folk in our own churches.....

Folks, these people were never ''Born Again''.....and further more they were Jews, not gentiles...These Jews went back to their traditions and back to living under the LAW...The same Law that condemns them...

I don't hold to that interpretation though (and even when I did believe salvation could not be lost I always had to dance around the fact that it said they were partakers of the Holy Spirit - not talking about some ritual of communion but a Spiritual reality). And you can look above a few posts where I showed that Hebrews consistantly uses the word partaker(s) for belivers only, making a "special exception" is a twisting of Scripture. The Bible is straight forward.

~Josh

 

[Guest]

I don't hold to that interpretation though (and even when I did believe salvation could not be lost I always had to dance around the fact that it said they were partakers of the Holy Spirit - not talking about some ritual of communion but a Spiritual reality). And you can look above a few posts where I showed that Hebrews consistantly uses the word partaker(s) for belivers only, making a "special exception" is a twisting of Scripture. The Bible is straight forward.

~Josh

Josh - noone is doubting that Hebrews addresses Christians - 'partakers'. It is not just as possible that Hebrews is addressing more than one crowd of people?

Within ANY local body of believers (ie: "church") there are 'partakers' who are both Christian and non-Christian.

 

[jgredline]

I don't hold to that interpretation though (and even when I did believe salvation could not be lost I always had to dance around the fact that it said they were partakers of the Holy Spirit - not talking about some ritual of communion but a Spiritual reality). And you can look above a few posts where I showed that Hebrews consistantly uses the word partaker(s) for belivers only, making a "special exception" is a twisting of Scripture. The Bible is straight forward.

~Josh

I will go back and study your OP,
but the word partakers in Greek means to share...It does not mean filled or received or any form of indwelling....What the writer is saying in that verse is that these folks were witness to the many miracles, signs and wonders...They got to share in those things being that they were Jewish, but in the end these folks were expecting a ''military king'' and instead the ended up with this Fellow who died on the cross like many other folks....Again..Show me where it says these folks were born again...It is simply not there....Even the phrase ....Those who were once enlightened
means those who heard the word of God...The Greek is clear as day, but unfortunately the English Language does not do this verse Justice...

 

[cyberjosh]

Javier,

Did you read my other post on the bottom of the last page? That may answer some more of your questions.

P.S. I would suggest that we start a seperate thread specifically for Hebrews 6:4-6 and we can explore the greek and preform exegesis on it until we've dropped over in exhaustion if you like .

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[lovely]

Hi everyone,

My take on Hebrews 6 is that Paul is telling us to press on to maturity because it is not as simple as receiving the blessings of the rain, and even being planted in fertile soil (as according to Christ). Do the tares know who they are? Why are we told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling? I believe that if we are overcomers, then we will spend eternity in Heaven, and that God knew this from the foundations, but men know nothing. Regeneration is the the witness of the Holy Spirit that brings life, and freedom (freewill?) to seek Him in Spirit and in Truth, and the aid of God to progress us to maturity with the help of the Holy Spirit. Basically the bearing of fruit.

Consider Eve, she was presumptuous, and in that was deceived. She had eternal life at her fingertips, but was simply deceived. On this earth, if I am truly God's, then I have been made free by Him, His Truth, but I still struggle with sin and deception...and self. My will is affected by sin even after regeneration, but it will not fall away if I am led by the Holy Spirit (walking in faith, not by sight, and in the Spirit), and seeking Him to move me forward to maturity...not arrogantly thinking I have it all wrapped up, or thinking that I can choose to keep my salvation somehow. If I am desperately seeking God in all matters, and doing His work, and the prayer of my heart is to be clean, repentant, and not presumptuous at all...always walking in fear.

David's prayer was...

Psalm 19
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

The great Transgression is simply unbelief in what God says...mistrust and unbelief, and the actions that follow that. Belief is Trust in what God says, and the actions, good works and obedience, that follow that.

Those who have a taste will not go on to be overcomers necessarily...there will be apostasy (falling away). If I were of an Arminian thought then that may mean I believe one can loose their salvation, and those in Hebrews 6 who have fallen away have done just that. If I were of a Calvinist thought then that may mean I believe that all who have had a taste of the Holy Spirit heed his witness...and are saved period, and that apostasy simply means that they were never truly saved, and that partakers simply means that they benefited from the blessings of the church...or at least looked like they did. What I believe Scripture teaches is that many will have a taste of the rain (The Holy Spirit and blessings of God), and even be planted in the good soil, and perhaps they have been given a witness of the Holy Spirit as to who Christ is, even to the point of growing roots, but something happens as they grow to bear the fruit of the Spirit (a huge storm, something deficient in the root system?)...They have a form of Truth, but not an understanding of the power thereof. They simply do not grow, and do not press on to maturity (which is what Paul is encouraging in Hebrews 6)...they are not elected to be overcomers, because they can not hear the Words of righteousness that would cause them to get off the milk (the training wheels?), and eat solid food that leads them to practice good works of God...of which overcomers, the elect, are created for in Christ. Since the audience was probably mostly Jewish, this really makes sense that the need to take their faith further...to the Messiah and beyond.

I believe that here on earth it really is in God's hands, and it is only the overcomers that will inherit the Kingdom of God, because they are not just called, but chosen and elected from the foundations to be His. They will be His sons, and He will be their God. Revelation 21:7

In Heaven, it will not be a matter of having to overcome...we will not have a will that is bound, and continuously deceived...and stressed. In Heaven, the overcomers will be "free" to serve Him unreservedly. The things that we pray to bind and loose here, are already bound and loosed there. They will not only have a new life, or a regenerated Spirit, but they will have glorified bodies...wills, emotions, logic, etc. that will be basking in the glory and light of God. They will know the Truth always, and nothing unclean will be there...not even in the corners of their minds...because even that corner is illuminated by God. There will be no groping for God in the dark, or desperately clinging to the Rock in the storms of deception and trial...the Glory of God will illuminate them, and their lamp will be the Lamb. The Truth of the Cross. The training is over, the battle is over, and it is time for the overcomers to have Kingdom dwelling in victory. Basically their new nature will be placed in an environment where it will flourish and be free, and they will no longer be cursed, but free to do GOD's will alone...these are the overcomers, the bondservants of God.

Revelation 22:3-4
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. This is pretty final, and at this point the enemies have already been made a footstool...nothing defiled will enter in. This is my take on what the Word says, the Lord bless all of you

 

[golfjack]

reply

And were made partakers of the Holy Ghost: To me, this means more than being born again and becoming acquainted with the Holy Spirit through His indwelling Presense ( John 14:16, 17). I believe it refers to being filled with the Holy Spirit, having received the baptism in the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1:5; 2:4).

I agree with Javier about once enlightened. Many would call it, Getting under conviction. The preaching of the Word enlightens the sinner. And have tasted of the heavenly gift. The heavennly gift is Jesus, and a man under conviction has not yet tasted the heavenly gift.

One commennt: Most AOG churches and holiness pentacostals seem to think that one can lose salvation in a heart beat by continuing to sin. This kind of thinking has put many in mental institutions. I don't care how many times for example one comitts adultry or has divorces, we are under the law of love, and actually have been forgiven because all sin has been forgiven on the cross. The only way I can see how a believer can lose their salvation is to commit the unpardonable sin, which is publically, purposefully rejecting Christ after one has been saved.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Hi Folks
I split the thread so we can try and shed some light on Hebrews 6:4-6

it can be found here....

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... sc&start=0