Hell: Will God see?, Will we?

[jgredline]

The born again believers version of this passage....
Eph2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The SDA version of this passage...
. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and of yourselves; it is not a gift of Ellen G white, so work hard, so that you may boast in that you had a part of your salvation..

 

[Solo]

JG,
Many Ex-Seventh-day Adventists have come out of this cult after God has shown them the lies of Ellen G. White and her ridiculous claims of Annihilationism, Investigative Judgment, and Sabbath Keeping as a sign.

One of the best books I have read concerning this outrageous bunch is written by Russell Earl Kelly, PhD. entitled, Exposing Seventh-Day Adventism. Russell Earl Kelly, PhD. was a pastor of the Seventh-Day Adventist church from 1973 to 1981. He graduated Cum Laude from Southern Missionary College (an affiliate of the Seventh Day Adventist church) in Tennessee in 1976.

This book is available in E-book format which you can download onto your computer and read in Adobe for $6.00 at http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/180173-ebook.htm

 

[Drew]

Can we please return to the topic and honour Veritas' wish to not debate the truthfulness of annihilation. I believe he wants to presume that annihilation is false and then ask a question that is contingent upon that presumption.

And by the way, I am sickened by the descent into rhetoric, name-callingm and "argument" by smear.

Surely we will not let these posters represent Jesus to the world on our behalf, will we?

 

[jgredline]

Drew
Your right..Back on topic....

 

[RND]

I really did not think that you would answer the questions that I asked.

Did I say that or did I say I'd answer them in another thread? As a moderator you should know better than attempting to deviate from the OP. If you like your questions asked, start another thread.

It is not a surprise that you adhere to the doctrines of the cults of christendom.

Amen Brother! The Cult of Jesus Christ!

For those who are not mixed up in these cults and are true believers, they see the lies and misfortune of those who adhere to doctrines of devils.

EDIT

I also find it an amazing thing that you are able to discuss anything else apart from the SDA mantra of "Sabbath Keeping" for salvation.

Again, for the fourth time now, if you'd like to start another thread, I'd be happy to answer your questions.

Now, per the OP, can we stay on topic?

 

[RND]

EDIT


Solo, do you see any connection respecting the fact that there are three parables in the Book of Luke that address "a certain rich man?" The parables are in Luke 12:16-21, Luke 16:1-13, and Luke 16:19-31.

What I am most interested in is your opinion as to whether or not there is any connection that we might be able to infer from the fact that these three parables use the same "character" namely, the "rich man?"

Can we draw any conclusions regarding similarity of these "story's" by the use of this similar character "the rich man"?

 

[Bubba]

Solo, do you see any connection respecting the fact that there are three parables in the Book of Luke that address "a certain rich man?" The parables are in Luke 12:16-21, Luke 16:1-13, and Luke 16:19-31.

What I am most interested in is your opinion as to whether or not there is any connection that we might be able to infer from the fact that these three parables use the same "character" namely, the "rich man?"

Can we draw any conclusions regarding similarity of these "story's" by the use of this similar character "the rich man"?

Hey you convinced me, but my bet is Solo will not admit the connection, in spite of Luke 16:14-15 just prior to Lazarus and the Rich man.

14The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
15And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Stay tough, Bubba

 

[RND]

Hey you convinced me, but my bet is Solo will not admit the connection, in spite of Luke 16:14-15 just prior to Lazarus and the Rich man.

14The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
15And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Stay tough, Bubba

You know Bubba, no one can seem to answer the question about why the admonishment against adultery comes right after this, and before Jesus tells His parable. Well, I should say no one.

I find it fascinating how Jesus slapped these guys right accros the face and they never seemed to catch it.

Luke 16: 18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Now, as true as that might be, it really has nothing to do with the Commandment as much as Jesus used it to put these Pharisees in their place......

Absolutely stunning!

 

[Veritas]

IF Luke 16:19-31 is a parable...

1.) It is the only parable that is NOT an earthly story with a heavenly or spiritual significance (rather it is a story that significantly transcends the realm of the earthly)

2. It would be the only parable in the Bible that uses a proper name (Lazarus).

3. It would be the only parable in the Bible that makes mention repeatedly of a historical person--Abraham. Moreover, this historical person carries on a dialogue with the rich man. Mention is also made of Moses, another historical character.

4. It would be the only parable in the Bible that describes the places where the dead go (Hades, Abraham's bosom, a place of torment).

5. It would be the only parable in the Bible that makes mention of angels. (In Matthew 13 verses 24-30, 36-43, 47-49 angels are mentioned in the explanation of the parable but not in the parable itself.)

I'm convinced it is literal.

I think that before Christ was born, died and rose from the dead, those who trusted in God went to the place mentioned in Luke 16:19-31 called Abraham's bosom (the unbelievers were/are in Hades). When Christ died, he went to Abraham's bosom, and took the believers to paradise as mentioned in the verses below:

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:8-10

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"1 Peter 3:19

“Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.†1 Peter 4:5-6

 

[jgredline]

Hey you convinced me, but my bet is Solo will not admit the connection, in spite of Luke 16:14-15 just prior to Lazarus and the Rich man.

14The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
15And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Stay tough, Bubba

Sorry, but clearly those can be different events...Go back and read my post....I find it very interesting that JW, Christidelphians, Universalist, SDA all believe in annihilation...What do all these folks who believe in annihilation have in common? All of these groups believe that Luke 16 is a fable...Why do you suppose this is? Because it fits into their false theology...Oh, yes..these groups are also satanic cults

But the fact is this...Weather one chooses of their own free will to believe that this is a parable or a true account, the Lesson that Jesus was teaching is still the same....and eternal torment is real......Those who make it to the great white thrown will have made it there by their choice...What will not be their choice is when they taste .....

 

[jgredline]

.

I find it fascinating how Jesus slapped these guys right accros the face and they never seemed to catch it.

Sorry, but I did mention it a while back, but you choose not to see it..

 

[jgredline]

I'm convinced it is literal.

Hey Solo we are not alone

 

[Solo]

Hey Solo we are not alone

If we were the only three that knew that Jesus teaching of the rich man and Lazarus was literal we three would not be alone. Jesus himself would be there among us. :

My current signature says it all! 8-)

 

[RND]

I'm convinced it is literal.

Do you have an idea then what the five brothers of the "rich man" represents?

Also, do you see any connection respecting the fact that there are three parables in the Book of Luke that address "a certain rich man?" The parables are in Luke 12:16-21, Luke 16:1-13, and Luke 16:19-31.

 

[RND]

Sorry, but I did mention it a while back, but you choose not to see it..

I'm sorry, I must have missed it. My bad.

 

[RND]

All of these groups believe that Luke 16 is a fable...

Parable.

Why do you suppose this is? Because it fits into their false theology...Oh, yes..these groups are also satanic cults

Oh, stop! You're being melodramatic and childish.

But the fact is this...Weather one chooses of their own free will to believe that this is a parable or a true account, the Lesson that Jesus was teaching is still the same....and eternal torment is real......Those who make it to the great white thrown will have made it there by their choice...What will not be their choice is when they taste .....

The lesson He was teaching is that the Pharisees were relying on their birthright for eternal life and were so self absorbed that they would never believe Moses or the prophets that prophesied about Him dying and rising from the dead.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets they won't listen to one that rises from the dead.

 

[Veritas]

Do you have an idea then what the five brothers of the "rich man" represents?

five brothers.

Also, do you see any connection respecting the fact that there are three parables in the Book of Luke that address "a certain rich man?" The parables are in Luke 12:16-21, Luke 16:1-13, and Luke 16:19-31.

If an elephant has ears, and a dog has ears, does that make the elephant a dog?

Luke 12:16-21 starts out: And he told them this parable:

Luke 16:1-13 has two parts: the parable (Luke 16:1-8) and the explaination (Luke 16:9-13)

Luke 16:19-31 is just one thing (it is not story AND explaination; it is not defined as a parable like Luke 12:16-21). It is simply events related to the disciples (and us) by Jesus.

 

[RND]

five brothers.

Do you find it of interest that in the other parables seem to allude to the 'rich man' as being the Jews, and that Judah actually had 5 brothers between Jacob and Leah?

Do think that's just one of them thar co-winky-dinks?

If an elephant has ears, and a dog has ears, does that make the elephant a dog?

EDIT:

Luke 12:16-21 starts out: And he told them this parable:

Luke 16:1-13 has two parts: the parable (Luke 16:1-8) and the explaination (Luke 16:9-13)

Luke 16:19-31 is just one thing (it is not story AND explaination; it is not defined as a parable like Luke 12:16-21). It is simply events related to the disciples (and us) by Jesus.

Veritas, I asked a closed ended question that really only required a yes or no question, not an explanation. Specifically, I asked if you see any connection respecting the fact that there are three parables in the Book of Luke that address "a certain rich man?"

I'll take it from your confusing response that your answer is no.

 

[Veritas]

Do you find it of interest that in the other parables seem to allude to the 'rich man' as being the Jews, and that Judah actually had 5 brothers between Jacob and Leah?

Do think that's just one of them thar co-winky-dinks?

The "coincidence" is nonexistant considering that the descendants of all 12 children of Jacob are considered Jews.

Veritas, I asked a closed ended question that really only required a yes or no question, not an explanation. Specifically, I asked if you see any connection respecting the fact that there are three parables in the Book of Luke that address "a certain rich man?"

I'll take it from your confusing response that your answer is no.

There is an obvious connection. The mention of a rich man. I don't deny that connection. However, I do not think this proves they are all parables like you presuppose in your question.

If an elephant has ears, and a dog has ears, that does NOT make the elephant a dog

just like...

If Jesus speaks of a rich man in reality, and Jesus speaks of a rich man in a parable, this does NOT make the reality a parable.

 

[RND]

The "coincidence" is nonexistant considering that the descendants of all 12 children of Jacob are considered Jews.

All Californians are Americans, not all Americans are Californians. The only one here that considers all 12 tribed as Jews would be you.

All Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews.

There is an obvious connection. The mention of a rich man. I don't deny that connection. However, I do not think this proves they are all parables like you presuppose in your question.

Outstanding, we are making progress! If, as you agree, there is a connection, what would your opinion be regarding that connection?

If Jesus speaks of a rich man in reality, and Jesus speaks of a rich man in a parable, this does NOT make the reality a parable.

No question. That's why it would be wise to investigate this connection between these three parables before concluding on way or the other.

Obviously, if there is a connection, as you mentioned, then would it seem more likely that of the three, two deal in "allegory" while one deals in "reality?"