Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[faithtransforms]

Well let me help you off the fence. When Jesus said nobody knew the day or hour He was speaking of the 2nd coming not the rapture, and only verses before He clearly stated that His return is after the Tribulation. So the fact that it is after the Trib apparently has no baring on the fact that no one knows the day or hour.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus makes two very clear statements in this passage.
#1 The 2nd coming is after the Tribulation.
#2 No one knows the day or hour of his 2nd coming.

The fact of either of these statement cannot rule out the truth of the other. They are both equally true.

Let me take you one step further to the timing of the rapture.
We know via Matthew 24 that the coming of Christ is after the Tribulation and 1st Thess 4:15-17 place the rapture at His coming.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1+2=3 if the coming of the Lord is after the Trib, and the rapture is at His coming that means the rapture itself must be after the Tribulation.

I see your point, definitely, but anyone who is alive during the trib will be able to know the day and the hour because it is all spelled out. That's the part I don't get.

 

[faithtransforms]

Faithtransforms you are doing great. Keep believing the bible, rather than the doctrines of men. Amillennialist spiritualize the literal word of God. In a since they are calling God a liar. However I would fight one battle at a time if I were you, and ignore the amillennialist in this thread. Let them start a thread of their own or start a separate thread to combat the lie of amillennialism. It is my understanding that this thread is to debate the lie of the pretrib rapture not the lie of amilllennialism.

True, I will try not to get too off track. I just CANNOT even COMPREHEND the amillennial or post-millennial viewpoints. How could anyone believe that? But you're right, this is about the rapture.

 

[jasoncran]

because of the week clock start. and yes arent not in the millenium as satan isnt bound
last week in america the day of prayer and fasting in now unconstitutional.

i will laugh when the athiiest cries because he has to work on those unconstitutional holidays (christmas) now because the bank/ post office and so on is open.

 

[faithtransforms]

because of the week clock start. and yes arent not in the millenium as satan isnt bound
last week in america the day of prayer and fasting in now unconstitutional.

i will laugh when the athiiest cries because he has to work on those unconstitutional holidays (christmas) now because the bank/ post office and so on is open.

the day of fasting and prayer is now unconstitutional? Oh God help us. And yes, LOL about those atheists not getting our holidays off anymore. I pray to God that doesn't happen. I wonder about this nation as it does not seem to be specifically mentioned in prophecy except some interpret it as the eagle in Revelation and Perry Stone interprets it in an interesting way concerning america being similar to Rome because of the way our country is set up or something like that. but i don't want to misrepresent him so i won't talk about it b/c I can't remember his take on it very well, but he's a brilliant man.

 

[archangel_300]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

I don't believe that the entire book of Revelation has already been fulfilled.
If we are talking about Revelation "1000 year" reign of Christ... I believe a closer look at those passages reveal that it is actually referring to the entire New Testament period up until the great tribulation period. (Unless someone here can prove me otherwise and I'd be certainly willing to debate) I'm pretty certain the first resurrection being discussed in Revelation 20 is the time when Jesus was crucified.

Matthew 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I suspect what's happening here is that when believers in the Old Testament died they weren't immediately joined with Christ until the atonement for their sins had been paid for. There were some notable exceptions like Moses/Elijah ...etc. and I think these were exceptions. So this event I believe commenced the 1000 year reign of Christ. And now those who die in Christ during the New Testament period are immediately joined with Christ in heaven.

Again though I'm not sure about this, but this is one of the reasons I hold to the amillenial position.

 

[faithtransforms]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

I don't believe that the entire book of Revelation has already been fulfilled.
If we are talking about Revelation "1000 year" reign of Christ... I believe a closer look at those passages reveal that it is actually referring to the entire New Testament period up until the great tribulation period. (Unless someone here can prove me otherwise and I'd be certainly willing to debate) I'm pretty certain the first resurrection being discussed in Revelation 20 is the time when Jesus was crucified.

Matthew 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I suspect what's happening here is that when believers in the Old Testament died they weren't immediately joined with Christ until the atonement for their sins had been paid for. There were some notable exceptions like Moses/Elijah ...etc. and I think these were exceptions. So this event I believe commenced the 1000 year reign of Christ. And now those who die in Christ during the New Testament period are immediately joined with Christ in heaven.

Again though I'm not sure about this, but this is one of the reasons I hold to the amillenial position.

I'm sorry, I mean no offence at all. But that's just plain crazy. Honestly, I know you're a good Christian, but where are these assertions coming from? I will have to pull up Rev 20. But again I think its a big mistake to spiritualize scripture unless it is obvioulsly 100% completely metaphorical. Like the Beast that Daniel saw, that's clearly a metaphor. But Christ reigning for 1000 years? Don't see any reason to interpret that figuratively at all.

 

[jasoncran]

what that beast is real, i live with that one at times and it has possesed me a few times.

 

[archangel_300]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

Oops, I think I totally misread your question.
You can be amillennial and still believe the church will go through the great tribulation.
I don't see how the great tribulation would be on conflict with the amillenial position?

 

[watchman F]

Well let me help you off the fence. When Jesus said nobody knew the day or hour He was speaking of the 2nd coming not the rapture, and only verses before He clearly stated that His return is after the Tribulation. So the fact that it is after the Trib apparently has no baring on the fact that no one knows the day or hour.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus makes two very clear statements in this passage.
#1 The 2nd coming is after the Tribulation.
#2 No one knows the day or hour of his 2nd coming.

The fact of either of these statement cannot rule out the truth of the other. They are both equally true.

Let me take you one step further to the timing of the rapture.
We know via Matthew 24 that the coming of Christ is after the Tribulation and 1st Thess 4:15-17 place the rapture at His coming.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1+2=3 if the coming of the Lord is after the Trib, and the rapture is at His coming that means the rapture itself must be after the Tribulation.

I see your point, definitely, but anyone who is alive during the trib will be able to know the day and the hour because it is all spelled out. That's the part I don't get.

Maybe and maybe not. I have two viable option/opinions on that.

#1 The Tribulational saints will know the day of the Lords return. We now have no idea what day or hour it might be, but they as you say may. After all Jesus didn't say no one would ever know the day or the hours. He said no one knows the day or hour present tense statement, and when He made that statement no one did, and for that matter we still don't, but the Tribulational saints might.

#2 They (the tribulational saints) may not know the day or hour, but they will know the approximate day, such as a doctor knows the due date of a pregnant woman. The due date is not the exact day the baby will come but an educated guess. My first sons due date was Feb `15, but he came on Feb 1, and my second sons due date was July 21, but he was born July 19. You see we knew the approximate day but not the exact day or hour. The fact is, as you say, believers living during the Tribulation will have all the signs they need to know when the Lord return will be, and for that matter scripture tell us this much.

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The wicked had no idea the flood was coming, but Noah knew and prepared Himself accordingly. So will it be when Christ is about to return the wicked will not know His return is coming but the righteous will, this is confirmed in 1st Thess 5

1st Thess 5
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

You see the return of the Lord will be a surprise to the wicked but not to the righteous we wiould have seen the signs and took note of them.

Jesus tells us to watch for His return. Pretribbers claim this is proof of immanency this is false the fact is we are told to watch for the signs. Here are some scripture to help you see what I mean.

Matthew 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (signs of His return spoken of previously in Matthew 24), know that it (the 2nd coming just described in Matthew 24:29-31)is near, even at the doors.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

We are told to watch understand the times and know that when we are in the midst of the Tribulation His return is near even at the doors. (To get the context of Luke 21:28 read 20-27 you will see that this is referring to the midst of the great Trib when means heart are falling them for fear of what is happening in the earth). We are told at this point are redemption draws near.



Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mark 13
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

We are told to watch and pray, but watch for what? for Jesus to pop out of the sky unannounced? NO, we are to watch for the signs of His return such as the falling away, and the arrival of the antichrist ect.. the mark of the beast and so on.

I believe the Tribulational saints will know the day of the Lords return or at least the approximate day.


It is the Lord's exhortation to us is to watch and pray until the hour of His coming. Intimacy with God is absolutely mandatory if we are to stay steady in the storm that's coming. I believe you are doing well diving into the word believing the scripture regardless of the teaching of the church. Was is also needed in the life of an endtime believer is that intimacy with Christ that will enable us to stand.

 

[watchman F]

I'm sorry, I mean no offence at all. But that's just plain crazy. Honestly, I know you're a good Christian, but where are these assertions coming from? I will have to pull up Rev 20. But again I think its a big mistake to spiritualize scripture unless it is obvioulsly 100% completely metaphorical. Like the Beast that Daniel saw, that's clearly a metaphor. But Christ reigning for 1000 years? Don't see any reason to interpret that figuratively at all.

Once again ft you are correct there is no reason to spiritualize revelation, nor take it metaphorically except when scripture dictate, and the fact is every time there is a metaphoric symble used in Revelation there is a literal meaning that is given. There is absolutely no, and i mean no reason to spiritualize the 1,000 years reign of Christ.

 

[faithtransforms]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

Oops, I think I totally misread your question.
You can be amillennial and still believe the church will go through the great tribulation.
I don't see how the great tribulation would be on conflict with the amillenial position?

I was confusing it with post-millennialism.

 

[faithtransforms]

Maybe and maybe not. I have two viable option/opinions on that.

#1 The Tribulational saints will know the day of the Lords return. We now have no idea what day or hour it might be, but they as you say may. After all Jesus didn't say no one would ever know the day or the hours. He said no one knows the day or hour present tense statement, and when He made that statement no one did, and for that matter we still don't, but the Tribulational saints might.

#2 They (the tribulational saints) may not know the day or hour, but they will know the approximate day, such as a doctor knows the due date of a pregnant woman. The due date is not the exact day the baby will come but an educated guess. My first sons due date was Feb `15, but he came on Feb 1, and my second sons due date was July 21, but he was born July 19. You see we knew the approximate day but not the exact day or hour. The fact is, as you say, believers living during the Tribulation will have all the signs they need to know when the Lord return will be, and for that matter scripture tell us this much.

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The wicked had no idea the flood was coming, but Noah knew and prepared Himself accordingly. So will it be when Christ is about to return the wicked will not know His return is coming but the righteous will, this is confirmed in 1st Thess 5

1st Thess 5
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

You see the return of the Lord will be a surprise to the wicked but not to the righteous we wiould have seen the signs and took note of them.

Jesus tells us to watch for His return. Pretribbers claim this is proof of immanency this is false the fact is we are told to watch for the signs. Here are some scripture to help you see what I mean.

Matthew 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (signs of His return spoken of previously in Matthew 24), know that it (the 2nd coming just described in Matthew 24:29-31)is near, even at the doors.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

We are told to watch understand the times and know that when we are in the midst of the Tribulation His return is near even at the doors. (To get the context of Luke 21:28 read 20-27 you will see that this is referring to the midst of the great Trib when means heart are falling them for fear of what is happening in the earth). We are told at this point are redemption draws near.



Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mark 13
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

We are told to watch and pray, but watch for what? for Jesus to pop out of the sky unannounced? NO, we are to watch for the signs of His return such as the falling away, and the arrival of the antichrist ect.. the mark of the beast and so on.

I believe the Tribulational saints will know the day of the Lords return or at least the approximate day.


It is the Lord's exhortation to us is to watch and pray until the hour of His coming. Intimacy with God is absolutely mandatory if we are to stay steady in the storm that's coming. I believe you are doing well diving into the word believing the scripture regardless of the teaching of the church. Was is also needed in the life of an endtime believer is that intimacy with Christ that will enable us to stand.

Yes, intimacy will be key to being ready and willing to die for Jesus when the time comes (rather than take the mark). But that's another thing I don't understand, how will the world be saying "Peace and safety" when they are in the middle of the most horrible period the earth has ever been through?

 

[Mike]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

Oops, I think I totally misread your question.
You can be amillennial and still believe the church will go through the great tribulation.
I don't see how the great tribulation would be on conflict with the amillenial position?

Agreed. We have some people with their heals dug in the ground pretty deep. I'm not trying to convince any of my trib brothers and sisters of amillennialism. Personally, I don't believe it's enough for us as believers to war over or to pit us against each other.

As an amillennialist, I'm not sure now if I've been asked - or told - to keep my opinion to myself. It sounds like we're not "worthy" Christians and need to go to our corner of the room. I've never really gotten into bickering about this at length, because I've never seen the value in separating the three groups of believers from each other.

I'd be happy to share where I've derived my beliefs from, but I'm not going to argue with my fellow Christians about it. Yes, we have tribulation. Satan is alive spiritually in our world and makes his presence known. Being bound does not mean being incapable of torment. Some may find 1 interpretation true and mock the others has heresy. I believe there is defensible scripture to back up claims to each belief, so to laugh at any group in particular, or worse, deny that they are Christians, grieves me.

The perfect thread, in my opinion, would be one where we state reasons for why we are pre, post or amillennialist and not say the other views are absolutely wrong. But I'm not in control here. As I said, I'm not sure if I have been ushered out of the building by watchman, who I seem to recall having numerous pleasant agreements with.

 

[archangel_300]

I'm sorry, I mean no offence at all. But that's just plain crazy. Honestly, I know you're a good Christian, but where are these assertions coming from? I will have to pull up Rev 20. But again I think its a big mistake to spiritualize scripture unless it is obvioulsly 100% completely metaphorical. Like the Beast that Daniel saw, that's clearly a metaphor. But Christ reigning for 1000 years? Don't see any reason to interpret that figuratively at all.

No offence taken. That's why I'm careful to say that I'm not certain, I could be very wrong.
I'll have to summarize...

One of the key things we know of about the 1000 year reign is that Satan was bound.
I believe this occurred at the cross when Christ was raised from the dead. He was bound as now the gospel goes out in "full force" so to speak and the harvest begins. There is nothing that Satan can do about this and Satan has been given a "death blow" as now God's salvation plan is locked in stone.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Who are those that lived verses those that did not live? One can only conclude that those that lived were believers and the ones that didn't were non believers who will be raised from the dead when Christ returns (1000 years finished). Those that take part in the first resurrection the "second death" has no power. The second death is eternal damnation. And really that's what happens when we come into God's kingdom when we become saved, the second death has no power over us and we become priests of God in Christ.

Revelation 1:5 To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We do know that after the 1000 years have expired Satan will be loosed to "DECEIVE" the world. And I believe this is going to mark the start of the great tribulation period. Again in Matthew 24 the signs Christ will return is that there will be a strong spiritual deception throughout the entire world. The apostles ask "what is the sign you will return" and the first thing Christ says "BE NOT DECEIVED". False Christs and prophets will arise to deceive.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I strongly believe the Great Tribulation period will be the most horrible time in the world... because it will be the time hardly anyone on the face of the earth will be saved and coming into God's kingdom.
Satan will be allowed to decieve people in all sorts of manners that the light of the gospel will no longer be found.

So that's a very very quick summary of why I believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is the New Testament period.

 

[watchman F]

Maybe and maybe not. I have two viable option/opinions on that.

#1 The Tribulational saints will know the day of the Lords return. We now have no idea what day or hour it might be, but they as you say may. After all Jesus didn't say no one would ever know the day or the hours. He said no one knows the day or hour present tense statement, and when He made that statement no one did, and for that matter we still don't, but the Tribulational saints might.

#2 They (the tribulational saints) may not know the day or hour, but they will know the approximate day, such as a doctor knows the due date of a pregnant woman. The due date is not the exact day the baby will come but an educated guess. My first sons due date was Feb `15, but he came on Feb 1, and my second sons due date was July 21, but he was born July 19. You see we knew the approximate day but not the exact day or hour. The fact is, as you say, believers living during the Tribulation will have all the signs they need to know when the Lord return will be, and for that matter scripture tell us this much.

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The wicked had no idea the flood was coming, but Noah knew and prepared Himself accordingly. So will it be when Christ is about to return the wicked will not know His return is coming but the righteous will, this is confirmed in 1st Thess 5

1st Thess 5
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

You see the return of the Lord will be a surprise to the wicked but not to the righteous we wiould have seen the signs and took note of them.

Jesus tells us to watch for His return. Pretribbers claim this is proof of immanency this is false the fact is we are told to watch for the signs. Here are some scripture to help you see what I mean.

Matthew 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (signs of His return spoken of previously in Matthew 24), know that it (the 2nd coming just described in Matthew 24:29-31)is near, even at the doors.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

We are told to watch understand the times and know that when we are in the midst of the Tribulation His return is near even at the doors. (To get the context of Luke 21:28 read 20-27 you will see that this is referring to the midst of the great Trib when means heart are falling them for fear of what is happening in the earth). We are told at this point are redemption draws near.



Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mark 13
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

We are told to watch and pray, but watch for what? for Jesus to pop out of the sky unannounced? NO, we are to watch for the signs of His return such as the falling away, and the arrival of the antichrist ect.. the mark of the beast and so on.

I believe the Tribulational saints will know the day of the Lords return or at least the approximate day.


It is the Lord's exhortation to us is to watch and pray until the hour of His coming. Intimacy with God is absolutely mandatory if we are to stay steady in the storm that's coming. I believe you are doing well diving into the word believing the scripture regardless of the teaching of the church. Was is also needed in the life of an endtime believer is that intimacy with Christ that will enable us to stand.

Yes, intimacy will be key to being ready and willing to die for Jesus when the time comes (rather than take the mark). But that's another thing I don't understand, how will the world be saying "Peace and safety" when they are in the middle of the most horrible period the earth has ever been through?

The antichrist will actually have people believing that it is the Jews and their God that is causes the chaos, and that destroying Jerusalem will be the end of their problems. That is why they are all gathering at Armegedon to attack Israel then boom Jesus returns and destroys them. Therefore when they shall say peace and safety then sudden destruction will come upon them.

 

[Mike]

Amillennialist spiritualize the literal word of God. In a since they are calling God a liar. However I would fight one battle at a time if I were you, and ignore the amillennialist in this thread. Let them start a thread of their own or start a separate thread to combat the lie of amillennialism. It is my understanding that this thread is to debate the lie of the pretrib rapture not the lie of amilllennialism.

I referred to you by name within the context of an earlier post, but I'd like to ask you specifically. Are amillennislists not worthy of calling ourselves Christians in your opinion, since we pull scripture to support our belief that conflict with yours? Since we are "not Christians", are we to be ignored along with Muslims, Mormons and JW's simply because we derive at a conclusion of scripture that conflicts with yours? We're no better than others on my list? This seems harsh to say the least. I'm not comfortable making those accusations of other interpreters who are living their lives for Christ. I would NEVER make the same accusations of you. Whether you believe that of me, let it be known, I don't believe it of you. Because we conclude that Jesus will return in all His glory to take up His believers for all to see and establish His new world, are you prepared to cast us out of the Body of Christ?

 

[archangel_300]

Agreed. We have some people with their heals dug in the ground pretty deep. I'm not trying to convince any of my trib brothers and sisters of amillennialism. Personally, I don't believe it's enough for us as believers to war over or to pit us against each other.

As an amillennialist, I'm not sure now if I've been asked - or told - to keep my opinion to myself. It sounds like we're not "worthy" Christians and need to go to our corner of the room. I've never really gotten into bickering about this at length, because I've never seen the value in separating the three groups of believers from each other.

I'd be happy to share where I've derived my beliefs from, but I'm not going to argue with my fellow Christians about it. Yes, we have tribulation. Satan is alive spiritually in our world and makes his presence known. Being bound does not mean being incapable of torment. Some may find 1 interpretation true and mock the others has heresy. I believe there is defensible scripture to back up claims to each belief, so to laugh at any group in particular, or worse, deny that they are Christians, grieves me.

The perfect thread, in my opinion, would be one where we state reasons for why we are pre, post or amillennialist and not say the other views are absolutely wrong. But I'm not in control here. As I said, I'm not sure if I have been ushered out of the building by watchman, who I seem to recall having numerous pleasant agreements with.

I agree.
I'm definitely open to what others have to say about this. It is an interesting topic but I'm not going to try to convince anyone of my personal position on this. I'll gladly state the reasons why I believe what I believe and leave it at that if someone should ask me.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel the way you do and feel that you have been "ushered out of the building".
Some people may not want to see things from a different perspective and it's sad that they begin to attack others and put other people down on a personal level. This is definitely not Christian like behavior. Some things I've seen people get upset on are not worth getting upset at all and some people seem like they'd much rather show they are correct than they are interested in trying to be correct.

All of us should have an open mind we may not be 100% correct in any of our beliefs. None of us are going to be absolutely perfect in the doctrines we hold. I'm certain I don't have all doctrines correct and that's why I keep an open mind. I'll debate and if someone can show me using sound reasoning an the scriptures that I may be incorrect I'll gladly change whatever doctrine I hold. I try to be in alignment with the truth of God's Word whenever I can because in the end that's all that really matters.

It's kind of sad that there are some people that have closed minds and won't budge. If we proclaim that we have the truth when in fact we are in error and we continue to persist in preaching our belief then we are saying "thus saith the Lord" when the Lord has not said. False teachers are going to come under more severe judgment and it's actually a very scary thing. To be quite honest it is a very terrifying thing and it scares me into trying to be as accurate as I possibly can.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm sorry, I mean no offence at all. But that's just plain crazy. Honestly, I know you're a good Christian, but where are these assertions coming from? I will have to pull up Rev 20. But again I think its a big mistake to spiritualize scripture unless it is obvioulsly 100% completely metaphorical. Like the Beast that Daniel saw, that's clearly a metaphor. But Christ reigning for 1000 years? Don't see any reason to interpret that figuratively at all.

Once again ft you are correct there is no reason to spiritualize revelation, nor take it metaphorically except when scripture dictate, and the fact is every time there is a metaphoric symble used in Revelation there is a literal meaning that is given. There is absolutely no, and i mean no reason to spiritualize the 1,000 years reign of Christ.

It isn't spiritualized at all. The 1,000 year reign of Christ refers to the entire church age from the cross to the second coming of Jesus. 1,000 is used many times in the Word for completeness. Like God owns the cattle on 1000 hills...it's really saying He owns them all. The problem with those who believe there will be a literal thousand years here on earth is they must reach into prophecies from the OT that are not really speaking of a kingdom on earth after Christ returns, as I read the Word. There is also no viable explanation of who will still be alive on earth to populate this kingdom. There are many theories and not much agreement even among those who think the 1000 yrs. will be after the Lord's return. I've found Revelation 20 has caused a lot of misunderstanding among believers...including having two judgments when there is only one. The book of Revelation was nearly kept out of the Bible because it is difficult to rectify with all of Scripture. I like it, personally, but I certainly don't see it the way many do in this new age of understanding concerning the end day.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh, ok. Well, when the bible says Christ will reign for 1000 years on the throne of David from Jerusalem, I think its a mistake to take that metaphorically. Where do you get the idea that it is figurative? Is there some scripture you can point to that supports that? I think it is a mistake to interpret ANYTHING in the bible metaphorically if it is even remotely possible that it could really happen. You think satan has been bound? :rolling Have you taken a look around this world? Paul calls him the god of this world for a reason. And does that also mean you do not believe New Jerusalem will descend from the Heavens and that God will make His abode with us on earth?

You don't think Satan has been bound? Just wait until he's released and you may see that he has been.

The strong man is satan...unless he was bound the Gospel could not go out.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Much of what is ascribed to satan is sinful man and the lusts of their flesh. Satan could freely possess people...him and all his demons, before the cross. He can't do that today. Christ defeated satan at the cross...he has bound satan with certain parameters set forth so the Gospel could be spread abroad through the whole earth. During this church age, satan can not freely enter into man and the church need only resist and he must flee. When he is released during the end of the age, he will perform many miracles and signs....then we will see him "loosed".

And Jesus does sit on David's throne...but that's the topic for another thread.

 

[glorydaz]

Amillennialist spiritualize the literal word of God. In a since they are calling God a liar. However I would fight one battle at a time if I were you, and ignore the amillennialist in this thread. Let them start a thread of their own or start a separate thread to combat the lie of amillennialism. It is my understanding that this thread is to debate the lie of the pretrib rapture not the lie of amilllennialism.

I referred to you by name within the context of an earlier post, but I'd like to ask you specifically. Are amillennislists not worthy of calling ourselves Christians in your opinion, since we pull scripture to support our belief that conflict with yours? Since we are "not Christians", are we to be ignored along with Muslims, Mormons and JW's simply because we derive at a conclusion of scripture that conflicts with yours? We're no better than others on my list? This seems harsh to say the least. I'm not comfortable making those accusations of other interpreters who are living their lives for Christ. I would NEVER make the same accusations of you. Whether you believe that of me, let it be known, I don't believe it of you. Because we conclude that Jesus will return in all His glory to take up His believers for all to see and establish His new world, are you prepared to cast us out of the Body of Christ?

I certainly wouldn't worry about what he thinks. Christians down through the ages have believed when the Lord returns, we'll be with Him in heaven. It may include a new earth as well, but for eternity...not a thousand years. And there isn't even agreement among those who believe in a future kingdom on earth. I've gone round and round on prophecy boards and have come to the conclusion it just doesn't work.

I'll put my trust in the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles more than I will in any doctrine coming out of the book of Revelation. Talk about a book of symbols... and yet the 1000 year kingdom on earth is held onto like it's written in stone. I happen to believe Revelation is easier to understand once you realize the 1000 years is the church age. It doesn't make any kind of sense to think satan will be bound when Jesus returns for His bride...then mankind is given a thousand years...living and dying only to be tempted again when satan is loosed after the thousand years are over. This whole idea is quite recent in the church...when the interest in prophecy took the forefront. The Jewish question, that was resoved when the Messiah returned is held over and turned into another chance. I don't see that from the Word and the entire theory of a future kingdom rests on Rev. 20.