quote by Heidi on Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:59 am
That is false. Epesians 2:8-9, "For it is by Grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves-it is the gift from God not by works so that no one can boast."
So I don't know where you're getting this stuff up but it's not from the bible. So I can see why you had no verses to quote. I'll believe the bible over you any day.
You know one verse, taken out of context and magnified to be the keystone of your salvation. With this one verse you blast away all the words of your ‘Lord and Master’.
No problem. Here is what I wrote that I thought someone of your extensive biblical knowledge should recognize as scriptural. I said: “It is by following the words of Christ, doing works of faith, that we are in Christ. If we are not in Christ, and he in us, we abide in death. It’s just that simple.†What is false in that?
I‘ll add the scripture that you should have been able to add mentally:
( 1 John 1:6-7 )
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
What does it mean to walk in darkness? To live in sin.
What does it mean to walk in light? To follow the commands of Christ ( which are to confess and repent of our sin, to love one another and do good works, etc. )
What does it mean to have fellowship with God? He abides in us and we abide in him.
When does the blood cleanse us from all sin? When we are walking in the light.
Do we agree so far? Let’s go on:
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Do we still have sin when we have become ‘Christians’? Yes, we still sin, don’t we?
Do we still have to confess our sin? Yes, and if we do, the blood cleanses us, doesn‘t it?
There are more in 1 John than I can quote here. Here’s one you can probably sing:
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
That one you like to turn backwards and claim it is because you are born of God that you can love but read these:
4:12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us.
3:10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.
11For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Can anything be plainer than this:
3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death.
15Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Is obeying Christ loving your brother? Is loving your brother, work? If it is, then you must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling as Paul wrote:
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Your faith without works cannot save you as it says in James 2:
14What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and has not works? can faith save him?
17Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
20But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22See you how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
You may want to slip by and say that loving your brother should not be work. If it is not work to love your brother, fine. You must love your brother to be saved even if it is no trouble at all.
So take your “not of works†verse and say, Even though I love my brother as Jesus commanded, it is still by Grace I have been saved through works of faith -and this salvation is not from myself-it is the gift from God not by works so that no one can boast."
You see, this verse means that God was not required to make a way of salvation for us and he didn’t do it because we were perfect in our works. He did it out of grace and love for us.
As I said before, there is no point to telling you that scripture supports a ‘works’ salvation. You won’t believe it, even if you read it yourself. You’re stuck on one or two verses that you have misunderstood, that make all of Jesus teaching to be nothing but empty rhetoric. It’s very sad and I feel sorry for you but you are set in your own error you refuse to open your eyes and see. You may still inherit eternal life, based on your works of love and faith, but what of those who read what you write and go away into a life of sin because they believe it won’t matter to their eternal destiny?
:o
