How to address the many conflicting end times models?

[JJonas]

Historic and Dispensational Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, Amillennialism, Inmillennialism, Preterism, ... It looks like we have a never ending list of end time models! How to sort this confusion out?

As conflicting as they could be, these models have all something in common: they are all highly dependent on the outcome of the following question: Is there any future for racial Israel (or “Israel after the flesh” as expressed in 1 Cor. 10:18), or did it ceased to be a nation in the eyes of God? Therefore half of the work to sort this confusion out would be done if we could find an answer to this question!
Note: this question does not concern how each individual is saved. Indeed, as far as I know, all models, at least in their mainstream form, insist that each individual is only saved by the faith in Jesus-Christ as stated by Acts 4:12: “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

There is a principle to interpret the Bible, which I believe was also highlighted by the reformers: “The clear interprets the obscure”, or: “the explicit interprets the implicit.” This means that we are not to use an obscure passage of the Bible to try to answer our question when there are already much clearer passages that provide an explicit answer! In our case, I can't think of a passage that more explicitly covers the state and the destiny of earthly Israel than Romans 9 to 11. So do we agree that a correct interpretation of this passage is the starting point to help us to have the right eschatological view?

I understand that Romans 9 to 11:11 covers the present state of earthly Israel, which is in short: “According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day” (11:8). Starting at v.12, things start to be interesting... Indeed, when I read v. 12, 15 and 25-36, I see a plan of God for a restoration of the racial Israel at some point in the future, which is not a promise bounded to some conditions but determined by God's eternal counsel (v. 32-36).
Note: by restoration, I mean that the veil “upon their heart” that is “unto this day” (2 Cor. 3:15), will be some day removed from them, for “the receiving of them” (v.15), so that “all Israel shall be saved” (v.26). I however don't see in this passage whether the dispensationalist view of the restoration of a earthly kingdom of Israel is correct or not. Anyway, I conclude that God has a plan for the future of earthly Israel!

If you don't agree with my conclusion, here is my question to you: In v. 28, we read: “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.” According to the context of this verse, which is Rom. 9 to 11, or more precisely: the immediate context, which is v. 25-31, who are these beloved enemies? And how do you explain the paradox that these enemies are called “beloved”, which is a strong word? Indeed, Jesus was called “beloved” too (Luke 3:22).

 

[for_his_glory]

There are so many conflicting theories about the end times that first started in the 1800's and escalated ever since. So many take the scriptures and twist them to try and make them line up with what these money making bandwagon Preachers say as they add to and take away from scripture. To many follow their Pastor instead of clearing their minds and get into the word and Biblical history allowing the Holy Spirit teach them.

From the very beginning of time starting with Adam man has allowed themselves to lose that Spiritual fellowship with God as Adam did when he fell to temptation through Satan’s deceit. Through the sin of Adams disobedience we have all allowed ourselves to be deceived causing us to fall short of Gods glory and became children of disobedience as we continue to allow Satan to deceive us unaware of his devices. God will chastise his children as a Father that disciplines his children. He only wants the best for them, but many have a rebellious heart that will not heed His warnings and have turned a deaf ear towards Him as they love their own lives unto death and will perish never knowing Gods mercy and grace.

Wars and rumor of wars, nation against nation and kingdoms against kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes are all results of mans sin as they continue to fall from Gods grace as they become lovers of self, 2 Timothy 3:2-4. The fulfillment of prophecy is in that of Jesus life, death and resurrection that we can reconcile ourselves back to God through His grace before the return of Jesus. Our covenant promise from God is that we will have eternal life with Him, John 10:27, 28, through grace that we can reconcile ourselves back to the Father and live our lives according to His will.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

 

[JJonas]

There are so many conflicting theories about the end times that first started in the 1800's and escalated ever since.

No, this started much earlier, with the promotion of Historical Premillennialism by early church fathers, including Polycarp the disciple of John(!) Source: https://www.mikerogersad70.com/historic-premillennialism/

Then in the 4th century, Augustine introduced Amillennialism.

The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

You don't answer my question as formulated in the last paragraph of my original post. Could you please answer it?

 

[for_his_glory]

These beloved enemies are that of the house of Israel who have killed the Prophets, Disciples and even Jesus. It's all explained in these scriptures and what I already posted. If this is not the answer you are looking for then I will bow out.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Gentiles Grafted In
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[Christian Saboteur]

Only God himself knows the day,relax,you have no control over when prophecy will be fulfilled.

 

[journeyman]

Historic and Dispensational Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, Amillennialism, Inmillennialism, Preterism, ... It looks like we have a never ending list of end time models! How to sort this confusion out?

As conflicting as they could be, these models have all something in common: they are all highly dependent on the outcome of the following question: Is there any future for racial Israel (or “Israel after the flesh” as expressed in 1 Cor. 10:18), or did it ceased to be a nation in the eyes of God? Therefore half of the work to sort this confusion out would be done if we could find an answer to this question!
Note: this question does not concern how each individual is saved. Indeed, as far as I know, all models, at least in their mainstream form, insist that each individual is only saved by the faith in Jesus-Christ as stated by Acts 4:12: “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

There is a principle to interpret the Bible, which I believe was also highlighted by the reformers: “The clear interprets the obscure”, or: “the explicit interprets the implicit.” This means that we are not to use an obscure passage of the Bible to try to answer our question when there are already much clearer passages that provide an explicit answer! In our case, I can't think of a passage that more explicitly covers the state and the destiny of earthly Israel than Romans 9 to 11. So do we agree that a correct interpretation of this passage is the starting point to help us to have the right eschatological view?

I understand that Romans 9 to 11:11 covers the present state of earthly Israel, which is in short: “According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day” (11:8). Starting at v.12, things start to be interesting... Indeed, when I read v. 12, 15 and 25-36, I see a plan of God for a restoration of the racial Israel at some point in the future, which is not a promise bounded to some conditions but determined by God's eternal counsel (v. 32-36).
Note: by restoration, I mean that the veil “upon their heart” that is “unto this day” (2 Cor. 3:15), will be some day removed from them, for “the receiving of them” (v.15), so that “all Israel shall be saved” (v.26). I however don't see in this passage whether the dispensationalist view of the restoration of a earthly kingdom of Israel is correct or not. Anyway, I conclude that God has a plan for the future of earthly Israel!

Hello JJonas .
The veil is removed for Jewish people when they turn to faith in what the Messiah actually taught,

in the reading of the Old Testament..the veil is taken away in Christ...when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 2Cor.3:15-16 NKJV

If you don't agree with my conclusion, here is my question to you: In v. 28, we read: “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.” According to the context of this verse, which is Rom. 9 to 11, or more precisely: the immediate context, which is v. 25-31, who are these beloved enemies? And how do you explain the paradox that these enemies are called “beloved”, which is a strong word? Indeed, Jesus was called “beloved” too (Luke 3:22).

All sinners regardless of race are considered enemies and all enemies were shown to be beloved by Jesus. He's a friend to all, but not all are His friends. He called Judas friend and was his friend, but Judas wasn't a friend in return. He betrayed the Lord and handed Him over to people our Savior also called His friends,

And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. Zech.13:6 KJV

Both Jews and gentiles.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JJonas,

In our case, I can't think of a passage that more explicitly covers the state and the destiny of earthly Israel than Romans 9 to 11. So do we agree that a correct interpretation of this passage is the starting point to help us to have the right eschatological view?

Yes, I agre that this could be a good starting point. My own preference would be to consider the detail of Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8 and Daniel 2, and these form the basis of the Historic Premillennium view of prophecy. This view of prophecy negates all other theories.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JJonas]

These beloved enemies are that of the house of Israel who have killed the Prophets, Disciples and even Jesus. It's all explained in these scriptures and what I already posted. If this is not the answer you are looking for then I will bow out.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Gentiles Grafted In
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

OK, we agree that the beloved enemies is the house of Israel. But why didn't you mention the following verses too, although they clearly relate to the same group of people? Indeed, without these verses, the drawn picture is incomplete:

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Would you also like to answer to my 2nd question ?

And how do you explain the paradox that these enemies are called “beloved”, which is a strong word? Indeed, Jesus was called “beloved” too (Luke 3:22).

 

[Consecrated Life]

Does scripture tell us that God destined that the nation Israel would be dispersed throughout the nations of the world for hundreds of years, yet the Jew would never lose their identity , to then be regathered again in the Land promised to Abraham ?
If all of that is true and they are there now does it make sense that God did all that just to do nothing else with them

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Consecrated Life,

Does scripture tell us that God destined that the nation Israel would be dispersed throughout the nations of the world for hundreds of years, yet the Jew would never lose their identity , to then be regathered again in the Land promised to Abraham ?

Yes, the Bible prophesies the scattering and also the preservation of the Jews and part of this was because of their rejection and crucifixion of Jesus and the events of AD 70.
Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The world witnessed these events and Jerusalem has been trodden down by the Gentiles for nearly 2000 years. To signal the near end of Gentile times, the Jews recaptured Jerusalem in AD 1967, in part fulfillment of Luke 21:24. There has been a partial return of the Jews to the Holy Land, but most of them are there in unbelief that Jesus is their Messiah. But a significant remnant of the nation of Israel will be converted at the return of Jesus and they will become the first nation of the Kingdom of Gd when Jesus rules as King/Priest on the Davidic Temple Throne in Jerusalem.

Micah 4:1–8 (KJV): 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[journeyman]

It's sad how many think people turning swords into plowshares begins after our Lord returns in person,

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword int ohis place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Mt.26:52 KJV

 

[journeyman]

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, Mic.4:2 KJV

And he opened his mouth, and taught them Mt.5:2 KJV

nd we will walk in his paths: Mic.4:2 KJV

they follow me: Jn.10:27 KJV
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1Cor.11:1 KJV

for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Mic.4:2 KJV

repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:47 KJV
[/QUOTE]

 

[JJonas]

All sinners regardless of race are considered enemies and all enemies were shown to be beloved by Jesus. He's a friend to all, but not all are His friends. He called Judas friend and was his friend, but Judas wasn't a friend in return. He betrayed the Lord and handed Him over to people our Savior also called His friends,

It's true that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son (...), but I have never seen the word “beloved” used in the Bible, to describe anything other than familial love, or the covenantal love of God for his people respectively for the believers. If I am wrong, can you prove that with the Bible?

And no, Jesus is not a friend to all. Indeed this is what He says in John 15:14: You are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you

 

[JJonas]

Yes, I agre that this could be a good starting point. My own preference would be to consider the detail of Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8 and Daniel 2, and these form the basis of the Historic Premillennium view of prophecy. This view of prophecy negates all other theories.

I don't know very much about Historic Premillennium. However it seems to me that the verses you cited support all forms of Premillennium views, don't they?

 

[JJonas]

Does scripture tell us that God destined that the nation Israel would be dispersed throughout the nations of the world for hundreds of years, yet the Jew would never lose their identity , to then be regathered again in the Land promised to Abraham ?
If all of that is true and they are there now does it make sense that God did all that just to do nothing else with them

Yes, many nations already disapeared. The mighty roman empire did all it could to erase the identity of Israel, even changing the name if the land to Palestine according to the old enemies of Israel (Philistines). That not only the jews still exist as a people with their own identity, but that they now have a land, is a powerful testimony that God preserved this people, which leads to the conclusion that the Bible is true!

 

[for_his_glory]

OK, we agree that the beloved enemies is the house of Israel. But why didn't you mention the following verses too, although they clearly relate to the same group of people? Indeed, without these verses, the drawn picture is incomplete:

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Would you also like to answer to my 2nd question ?

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is no longer Jew nor Greek, but God will have saved 144,000 out of all the tribes of the children of Israel, Rev 7. These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

Could you repeat your second question?

 

[journeyman]

It's true that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son (...), but I have never seen the word “beloved” used in the Bible, to describe anything other than familial love, or the covenantal love of God for his people respectively for the believers. If I am wrong, can you prove that with the Bible?

As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. Rom.9:25 KJV

And no, Jesus is not a friend to all. Indeed this is what He says in John 15:14: You are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you

Then are we being His friend. He has always been a friend to all.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings journeyman and JJonas,

It's sad how many think people turning swords into plowshares begins after our Lord returns in person,
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword int ohis place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Mt.26:52 KJV

Very few individuals or nations have followed the advice given to Peter. But Isaiah 2 is speaking about "the last days" and the exaltation of Jerusalem and worship there in the Age to Come.
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

It is sad how many will not accept the clear teaching of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-8, and many other Kingdom prophecies for that matter.

I don't know very much about Historic Premillennium. However it seems to me that the verses you cited support all forms of Premillennium views, don't they?

Possibly they draw on some of these, but I consider that Daniel 2 is the foundation prophecy for the Historic Premillennium concept, together with the parallel Daniel 7. I find that many Pentecostals and Evangelicals have very wide and differing views and I reject many of these. They may be simple and clear on some passages, but have some funny rapture ideas, and the tribulation and other aspects such as the Antichrist.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[journeyman]

Greetings journeyman and JJonas,

Very few individuals or nations have followed the advice given to Peter.

Many "nations" (gentiles) have been following the writings of the Bible for 2000 years.

But Isaiah 2 is speaking about "the last days"

Yes. Now look how Peter interpreted "the last days."

this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: Act.2:16-17

It was happening in front of them.

and the exaltation of Jerusalem and worship there in the Age to Come.

Will never be true in the Middle East, but has allways been true of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

The "mountain of the Lords' house" is the Lord and He filled the earth with His Spirit by the gospel. We need to see how Gods' word has impacted the world for the better. When people walk in His ways.

the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the wholeearth. Dan.2:35 KJV

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

It is sad how many will not accept the clear teaching of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-8, and many other Kingdom prophecies for that matter.

It's sad when Peter already clearly showed the on going fulfillment of those prophecies and people ignore it completely.

Possibly they draw on some of these, but I consider that Daniel 2 is the foundation prophecy for the Historic Premillennium concept, together with the parallel Daniel 7. I find that many Pentecostals and Evangelicals have very wide and differing views and I reject many of these. They may be simple and clear on some passages, but have some funny rapture ideas, and the tribulation and other aspects such as the Antichrist.

Kind regards
Trevor

I believe the gospel is misunderstood because congregations don't understand the Messiahs' teachings on the law or how Paul really saw them.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again journeyman,

It's sad when Peter already clearly showed the on going fulfillment of those prophecies and people ignore it completely.

Perhaps you should tell the people of Ukraine and Gaza that there will be no more war Isaiah 2:4. Also you ignore the fact that a significant remnant of Israel will become the first nation in the Kingdom of God Micah 4:6-8. And Daniel 2:35,44 predicts the complete replacement of the kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God. Last time I looked there were still many nations, or kingdoms of men. Perhaps you do not believe in the return of Jesus to the earth Acts 1:10-11, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor