Quibox writes:
â€ÂAnd this an assumption the scriptures not only don't make, but also make the whole passage redundant in meaning. Paul emphasises that the resurrection is 'hope'. '
"brothers I would not have you be ignorant concerning them which are asleep' Those words right there means that the dead are in their grave and Paul wants to tell them the truth..."that you sorrow not even as others who have no hope" So Paul is saying that those who are not 'asleep in Christ' have no hope. What is this hope? Paul goes on to tell them about the resurrection.â€Â
The “hope†is that Jesus is coming back. Contextually, verses 4:13 to 5:11 speak to this and that it is, our hope and comfort. Then the comfort consists of our participation in the death and resurrection of Jesus by being born again, we to will be raised up bodily, on His 2nd Advent. Yet, spiritually the dead in Christ are already with Him. This has to be the case, because Scripture here in verse 14 says just that (unless you want to do harm to the clear meaning and support your own preconceived views).This truth gives great hope to Paul’s audience of those whose love ones have already fallen asleep (died physically). In II Corinthians 5:1-9 Paul said, "Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it"
So, our bodies await the resurrection on the “Last Day†as the souls of the saints in glory wait to be clothed (verse 2) with the incorruptible bodies mentioned in 1Cor. 15:42-54..
Quibox writes:
â€ÂThis is assuming that the phrase ‘will God bring with Him’ means that ‘Jesus is bringing the souls from heaven to be reunited with their body’. This is a false assumption and again makes the first part of this passage meaningless ‘for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so…’ It is God the Son, not God the Father who is coming to earth. The phrase means that just as God made Jesus rise after He died, even so (or in the same manner as) will the dead in Christ rise.â€Â
Jesus was and is totally obedient to the will of the Father; it was that way while on earth as it is now in heaven. It is the Fathers will that His Son bring those who have already died physically with Him at His 2nd Coming. Some of those who are according to Scripture are in heaven now (by Robert Morey):
â€ÂThe reappearance of Samuel in a conscious state, with the use of all his faculties, at the call of Saul and the witch of Endor (1 Sam. 28:7–20); the appearance of Moses and Elias at the transfiguration of Christ on the mount (Matt. 17:3); Christ’s address to the thief on the crossâ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“Today shalt thou be with me in paradise†(Luke 23:43); the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:23, 24)â€â€Lazarus is conscious and active in Abraham’s bosomâ€â€the rich man is in conscious torment in Hell (Hades), while his brethren are still living in the flesh. Of dying Stephen, it is declared (Acts 7:55–59) that being full of the Holy Ghost, he saw the heavens opened, and Jesus Christ standing at the right hand of God; so seeing, he cried, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,†and so died.
In 2 Cor. 5:1–8, Paul declares that to be “at home in the body†is to be “absent from the Lordâ€Â; and to be “absent from the body†is to the believer to be “present with the Lordâ€Â; and hence he says (in Phil. 1:21–24) that for him “to die is gain,†and that he was “in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ; which is far better: nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.†In 1 Thess. 5:10, Paul declares that the sleep of death is a “living together with Christ.†In Eph. 3:15, the Church is declared to be one whole family, of which at present part is in heaven and part on earth. In Heb. 6:12–20, it is declared that after Abraham (and other ancient saints) “had patiently endured, he obtained the promisesâ€Â; which promises, we know, were in their true meaning spiritual and heavenly. In Acts 1:25, Judas is said to have gone “to his own place.†In Jude 6,7, the lost angels are said to be “reserved in ever fasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.†In Heb. 12:23, the spirits of the just are represented as “made perfect,†and happy with the angels in heaven. In Rev. 6:9–11, the souls of the martyrs are represented as under the altar in heaven, praying for the punishment of their former persecutors on earth, which of course must be before the resurrection. In Rev. 5:9; 7:9; 14:1,3, the souls of believers are represented as being now with Christ and the holy angels.†I disagree with Mr. Morey in respect to conscious torment, for anything other than a finite period.
Quibox states:
â€ÂWhat this commentary fails to realize is that Paul mentions that only with the resurrection body will we enter into heaven, not as some immortal soul. Second, it ignores the clear teaching that Paul is showing that eternal life cannot be realized until the resurrection and is not talking about merely the body.
Look closely at verses 18-23 and verse 34 and look closely at verses 51-55. Paul is making it clear that it is the whole man and not just the 'body' that puts on immortality. 'Death' is swallowed up in victory. The bible says that 'death is the last enemy to be destroyed' This would all happen if man's thinking, breathing, spiritual essence survives death and goes to heaven.â€Â
The problem is that you are not able to accept the concept that a person in Christ can be with Him and yet not be complete with the physical aspect of our being. Yet has been quoted earlier, Scripture is very clear that the dead in Christ are with Him even now and will, at His coming be united with their glorified bodies.
Quibox writes:â€Â
Also look at 2 Timothy 4:6-8 to see when Paul expected to be rewarded. Also see Revelation 22:12 to see when Christ gives out the rewards of eteranl life.â€Â
Our rewards are Christ and His imputed righteousness now and at His 2nd Advent, all things done on earth of a heavenly value were Christ’s righteousness working in us, as 1 Cor. 4:7 states. In glory we take our crowns off and give them back to whom it came from, Jesus our Lord. Eternal life is a present tense for the believer as well as a future tense (Col. 1:13-14, John 5:24 [25 and following verses are the resurrection of our bodies]).
Bubba
ps, I took the plunge
have you looked at my other postings?