Pass-A-Gospel-Tract
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Bible Study Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation?
- Thread starter Pass-A-Gospel-Tract
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Mungo
Member
I don't normally watch videos but I did this one.
It's rubbish.
Point 1. He make the beginners mistake of equating John's baptism with baptism in the name of Jesus.
It's clearly not because when Paul found that the 12 men at Ephesus had only been baptised with John's baptism he ordered that they be baptised in thew name of the Lord Jesus.
And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:3-5)
He ignored what Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
He missed out an important part of 1Pet 3:21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,..."
Point 2: He claims that in 1Cor 3:17 that Paul says that water baptism is not part of the saving gospel.
No! It doesn't say that.
It says "If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are."
What he meant was 1Cor 1:17. The guy can't even get his references right.
"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."
But even that doesn't say what he claimed.
Point 3. He says 1Pet 3:21 only says water baptism saves us from a bad conscience not from our sins. But why do we have a bad conscience? Answer - because we have sinned!
So when our sins are forgiven our conscience is clear. We no longer have a bad conscience.
Point 4. He goes on to say that 1Peter 3:21 says water baptism doesn't save us from the "filth of the flesh" and then claims "filth of the flesh" means sins. I don't know what translation she is using but the RSV says: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body" Clearly that is physical dirt from a physical body, not sins.
If you read all of 1 Peter 3:21, it says "the like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us."
"Figure" is a symbol of water baptism saving us! But to understand this you must first understand that being "baptized into Christ" is a spiritual salvation, Rom. 6:1-3.
In other words, water baptism is the symbol of our spiritual baptism into Christ.
Mungo
Member
What do you mean "If you read all of 1 Peter 3:21"? I quoted all of 1Pet 3:21
Yes, it's an outward sign of what God is doing - cleansing and renewing us (Ti 3:5)
Nowhere did you mention the "like figure" which is the key to the meaning.
Water baptism is the symbol of our being saved, the symbol of our spiritual salvation.
Water baptism saves no one!
Mungo
Member
The Greek is translated in different ways in different translations. For example:
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (RSV)
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NIV)
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (ASV)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (KJV)
Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now [a]saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (Amplified)
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NKJV)
And so baptism of like form maketh us safe [The which thing and baptism of like form maketh us safe]; not the putting away of the filths of flesh, but the asking of a good conscience in God, by the again-rising of our Lord Jesus Christ,(Wycliffe)
also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, (YLT)
It's not the water baptism itself that saves us. God saves us, but he does it in water baptism.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,..." (1Pet 3:21)
No, I'm afraid not!
Col. 2:11-12
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Our salvation is the "circumcision made without hands" it is the operation of God where we are spiritually baptized into Christ. As Peter said, water baptism is the "like symbol" of this spiritual baptism.
We are lowered into the water "baptized into the death of Christ" we are raised out of the water a new creature in Christ by the circumcision made without hands.
Salvation takes place instantly when we believe through faith in Christ's finished work on the Cross and His resurrection. Water baptism is the confession and illustration of what has already taken place in the heart (the circumcision of the heart) the moment we believe.
Mungo
Member
Yes, baptism symbolises what is happening. It is the outward sign of what God is doing to us
It is baptism with water that God acts.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,..." (1Pet 3:21)
Yes, baptism symbolises what is happening. It is the outward sign of what God is doing to us
It is baptism with water that God acts.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,..." (1Pet 3:21)
Where does scripture say
Where does scripture say
Jethro Bodine
Member
Jethro Bodine
Member
The problem is you're not taking the full counsel of scripture into consideration. We know that performing the righteous act of water baptism does not MAKE a person righteous by the simple fact that Paul said that happens by having your unrighteousness removed through the grace of God's forgiveness received by faith apart from works of righteousness.
And so righteousness comes by faith, NOT BY WORKS. And so when you see scriptures that talk about being saved by baptism and child birth we know they do not mean you are MADE righteous by doing those things. Those are required obediences of the faith that saves/justifies, but they have zero power to make you righteous. That only happens by being forgiven.
Mungo
Member
The big difference between your posts and mine is that I give scripture to back up my claims.
You just give your personal opinions.
I was baptized as a infant. Jesus directed His baptism in order to "fulfil" all righteousness.
Jesus directed His disciples to go into all nations baptizing.
By all means baptize.
Yet in considering the question asked my answer is there is only one thing needed, "Jesus"
As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. 40But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”
41“Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42but few things are needed—or indeed only one. f Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
Jesus directed His disciples to go into all nations baptizing.
By all means baptize.
Yet in considering the question asked my answer is there is only one thing needed, "Jesus"
As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. 40But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”
41“Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42but few things are needed—or indeed only one. f Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
Jethro Bodine
Member
Romans 4:5-6
5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
Neither of the two example of 'righteousness apart from works' Paul uses (David and Abraham) did anything to be righteous before God but BELIEVE. Catholics say you do something that makes you righteous, in complete contradiction to Paul's teaching about justification by faith apart from works. No one is justified (made righteous) by working, but rather by believing.
This is different from James' 'faith alone' argument. He is not saying a man can't be made righteous by faith alone. He is saying that faith can not be alone but will be seen by what it does. And so a man is justified (SHOWN to be righteous, not MADE to be righteous) not by faith alone but by what faith does. Faith alone does not show you to be righteous. Faith that works shows a person to be righteous. That's a different argument than what Paul is making in Romans 3 and 4.
JackrabbitSlim
Member
1 Peter 3:21
"There is also an antitype which now saves
us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of
the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God), through the
resurrection of Jesus Christ"
There is also an antitype
The word "antitype" comes from two words anti
(against) and type. An antitype is that which is set
over against the type. The antitype is reality
(Hebrews 9:24). The eight people in the ark were
the type, but now we have the reality. The reality
is the point of this passage.
The type here is the ark, the baptism into Christ's
death is the antitype. Baptism of the flood answers
to the baptism of Christ's death. The baptism of
the flood symbolically foreshadows Christ's death
for our sins. This is the picture of identification
with Christ in His death.
TYPE:
ARK – type of Christ WATER – type of Christ's
suffering
ANTITYPE:
Baptism of Christ's death at Calvary, which now
saves us—baptism
The antitype goes back to "water." "Water" is the
antecedent (gender). The water represents
judgment and symbolizes baptism in the death of
Christ. As the flood wiped out the old world,
baptism represents a break with our past life.
This baptism is not water baptism for believers.
Those who were wet were unbelievers and they
drowned. Baptism in water does not save us
because those immersed in water died in Noah's
day!
The waters of the flood saves, but only as a
counterpart, not actually. Old Testament sacrifices
were counterparts of the reality of Christ's death
on the cross. Those sacrifices did not save them,
only in type. Waters of the flood saved the inmates
of the ark only in type.
The ark suffered the judgment of the storm of the
flood. The ark was baptized by the flood. Believers
were sheltered in the refuge the ark. In it they
came out of the flood to a new earth. By analogy,
today God saves us by the death of Christ from
our sin. At Calvary, Christ was baptized into the
wrath of God. Through that baptism, believers are
saved. God saves us by the death and resurrection
of Christ.
(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the
answer of a good conscience toward God),
This is not referring to the washing away of our
sin. Baptismal regeneration states that we become
a Christian by water baptism. The waters of
baptism cannot put away sins. Peter makes it clear
that he is not dealing with H2O. Therefore, this is
not dealing with the external rite of baptism.
Water baptism does not save for it is simply a
counterpart or picture of salvation. To prove this,
the Holy Spirit adds this parenthesis.
"Answer" is literally a pledge, the pledge of a good
conscience toward God. This word is a business
term. In business contracts, there are commitments
that make it binding. God says to Christians, "Do
you accept the terms of salvation?" Our position of
death in Christ gives us a good conscience toward
God.
From what does baptism save us? From a bad
conscience. Baptism does not save from sin but
from a bad conscience. Baptism is a testimony that
we have been saved from sin.
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
The resurrection of the Lord Jesus is the pledge of
our position before God. The resurrection of Christ
saves us eternally. The resurrection is the factual
indication that the death of Christ was adequate to
save us.
At the resurrection and ascension, God accepts the
death of Christ to save us. Here is the basis for our
salvation. If the ark were not buoyed up by the
flood, Noah and his family would have been lost.
If Jesus did not rise from the dead, we could not be
saved. Our hope rests on the resurrection of
Christ.
Principle:
The resurrection of Jesus gives us confidence that
God will accept us into His presence.
Application:
Today, like in Noah’s day, we escape through the
baptism of Christ’s death. In Christ, God gives us a
new "status quo". This gives us a “good conscience
toward God.” When we enter the true ark (the
death of Christ for our sins), God will save our
souls. The resurrection stamps a guarantee that
God will bring us into His presence in eternity.
God shut the door of the ark and those inside are
safe eternally. God saves us in the same sense that
the water saved those in the ark. The water lifted
the ark and the death of Christ saves our souls.
"There is also an antitype which now saves
us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of
the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God), through the
resurrection of Jesus Christ"
There is also an antitype
The word "antitype" comes from two words anti
(against) and type. An antitype is that which is set
over against the type. The antitype is reality
(Hebrews 9:24). The eight people in the ark were
the type, but now we have the reality. The reality
is the point of this passage.
The type here is the ark, the baptism into Christ's
death is the antitype. Baptism of the flood answers
to the baptism of Christ's death. The baptism of
the flood symbolically foreshadows Christ's death
for our sins. This is the picture of identification
with Christ in His death.
TYPE:
ARK – type of Christ WATER – type of Christ's
suffering
ANTITYPE:
Baptism of Christ's death at Calvary, which now
saves us—baptism
The antitype goes back to "water." "Water" is the
antecedent (gender). The water represents
judgment and symbolizes baptism in the death of
Christ. As the flood wiped out the old world,
baptism represents a break with our past life.
This baptism is not water baptism for believers.
Those who were wet were unbelievers and they
drowned. Baptism in water does not save us
because those immersed in water died in Noah's
day!
The waters of the flood saves, but only as a
counterpart, not actually. Old Testament sacrifices
were counterparts of the reality of Christ's death
on the cross. Those sacrifices did not save them,
only in type. Waters of the flood saved the inmates
of the ark only in type.
The ark suffered the judgment of the storm of the
flood. The ark was baptized by the flood. Believers
were sheltered in the refuge the ark. In it they
came out of the flood to a new earth. By analogy,
today God saves us by the death of Christ from
our sin. At Calvary, Christ was baptized into the
wrath of God. Through that baptism, believers are
saved. God saves us by the death and resurrection
of Christ.
(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the
answer of a good conscience toward God),
This is not referring to the washing away of our
sin. Baptismal regeneration states that we become
a Christian by water baptism. The waters of
baptism cannot put away sins. Peter makes it clear
that he is not dealing with H2O. Therefore, this is
not dealing with the external rite of baptism.
Water baptism does not save for it is simply a
counterpart or picture of salvation. To prove this,
the Holy Spirit adds this parenthesis.
"Answer" is literally a pledge, the pledge of a good
conscience toward God. This word is a business
term. In business contracts, there are commitments
that make it binding. God says to Christians, "Do
you accept the terms of salvation?" Our position of
death in Christ gives us a good conscience toward
God.
From what does baptism save us? From a bad
conscience. Baptism does not save from sin but
from a bad conscience. Baptism is a testimony that
we have been saved from sin.
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
The resurrection of the Lord Jesus is the pledge of
our position before God. The resurrection of Christ
saves us eternally. The resurrection is the factual
indication that the death of Christ was adequate to
save us.
At the resurrection and ascension, God accepts the
death of Christ to save us. Here is the basis for our
salvation. If the ark were not buoyed up by the
flood, Noah and his family would have been lost.
If Jesus did not rise from the dead, we could not be
saved. Our hope rests on the resurrection of
Christ.
Principle:
The resurrection of Jesus gives us confidence that
God will accept us into His presence.
Application:
Today, like in Noah’s day, we escape through the
baptism of Christ’s death. In Christ, God gives us a
new "status quo". This gives us a “good conscience
toward God.” When we enter the true ark (the
death of Christ for our sins), God will save our
souls. The resurrection stamps a guarantee that
God will bring us into His presence in eternity.
God shut the door of the ark and those inside are
safe eternally. God saves us in the same sense that
the water saved those in the ark. The water lifted
the ark and the death of Christ saves our souls.
Eph. 1:13-14
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
It is after you believe the Gospel (that means to repent) your are saved, that very moment, water baptism has nothing to do with it.
How is it possible for a man to base his salvation on the ability of another man to perform a ceremony in order to be saved? You are depending on the works of another person for your salvation. This is wrong, no matter how you look at it. You have completely misunderstood the purpose for water baptism!
He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
It's not the baptism that saves as one who doesn't believe and is baptized won't be saved.
Sanctification is received through faith in Christ. Baptism is shown as an outward expression of such faith in "receiving Christ" and confession of Jesus as Lord and savior and pledging a clear conscience before God. God is looking at the heart of the person hence "He who believes"
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
As for cleansing:
“But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
Saved by grace "through faith" in Christ Jesus
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Mungo
Member
Exactly. But Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
And as I pointed out earlier
Jesus said faith+baptism = salvation
Where does it say that baptism is just an outward expression of anything?
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Paul is addressing those who have already been saved. He is not giving a plan of salvation for those who are not yet saved. He addresses those he is writing to in Rom 1 :7-8
To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.
And again in Rom 6:17-18
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
And Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
NOWHERE does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.
Jesus says it is faith + baptism