Justice

[Heidi]

Proverbs 28:5, "Eivl men do not understand justice. But those who seek the Lord understand it fully."

It appears that there are some Christians who believe that everybody deserves heaven. : Sorry, folks, but it's the exact opposite: none of us deserves heaven. We are all guilty of sin and deserve to die as the OT tells us by how many of God's laws we break every single day.

So it is only by God's mercy that we can escape death, not because of our own wonderful, kind, and pure nature, or even our desire or effort, as Romans 9:16 tells us.

But the sin of pride in man is so strong that he by nature, believes that love is rewarding humanity for disobeying God's laws. :o That couldn't be further from the truth. We all deserve death but God grants mercy to anyone who wants it, not because we deserve it at all, but because of His love, not because of our good nature.

So the belief that I have in God doesn't come because I was intelligent, wise, kind, and pure enough to choose God and do the right thing, but purely because God chose me which I had nothing to do with. So I cannot take credit for choosing God because it wasn't my choice that He chose me before the creation of the world. Nor is Satan more powerful than the Holy Spirit to over-ride His Spirit inside of us.

Grace is unmerited favor which means that it is not deserved and cannot be earned. It is strictly God's decision to be merciful and stirctly by His power that we can do anything good. So to those who accuse God of not being loving for sending people to hell, God will not tolerate man to pervert and make a mockery of Him and His creation.

So God is a merciful God and Godis a just God. If he imparts no justice, then he would be a wimp and not to be respected for letting humanity trample all over him. But humans say; "If God loved me, he would give me what I want." Sorry folks, none of us is entitled to His love nor do we decide who should be his favorites. Only God knows the hearts of men and is qualified to judge who deserves to live and who deserves to die. It's not a decision that human are qualified to make.

But because of the sin of pride, some people resist putting their lives in God's hands. That's unfortunate because that's the safest place they can be. ;-)

 

[Guest]

Does this not imply then that those who do not choose God, we not chosen by God in the first place?

If as you say, you did not choose God, but God choose you - then that means there is an equal opposite: those that did not choose God, we not chosen by God first.

Does this follow Scripture, when Scripture says that God wishes no-one to perish?

 

[Heidi]

Does this not imply then that those who do not choose God, we not chosen by God in the first place?

If as you say, you did not choose God, but God choose you - then that means there is an equal opposite: those that did not choose God, we not chosen by God first.

Does this follow Scripture, when Scripture says that God wishes no-one to perish?

Scripture answers that: "Matthew 11:27, "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

"You did not choose me, I chose you."

Matthew 22;14, "For many are invited but few are chosen."

That's scripture, firend. So if you want to know what God thinks then read scripture instead of making up a god of your imagination. It's that simple.

So put "God wants no one to perish" and "Many are invited but few are chosen" together and what do you get? So instead of trying to make scripture contradict itself, you need to make it agree with other scripture. And then your interpretation will be correct. But first you have to read the whole bible before you can do that. It's great reading.

 

[Guest]

Scripture answers that: "Matthew 11:27, "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

"You did not choose me, I chose you."

Matthew 22;14, "For many are invited but few are chosen."

That's scripture, firend. So if you want to know what God thinks then read scripture instead of making up a god of your imagination. It's that simple.

Heidi - there is no reason to insult, to suggest that I have not read the Bible or that I would make up a "god of my imagination."

How do you know that God chose you? Perhaps you were invited, but not chosen?

Not to mention, how do you know that your reconcilliation of the scriptures together is the correct interpretation.

If God desires that none perish, but then there are those that do - is God not able to fulfill His desires?

I ask these questions not out of ignorance, I was once a 5 point Calvinists - however, when I read the Bible and not just Calvin - I began to see that there is BOTH God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

It is a BOTH/AND not an EITHER/OR.

 

[Rick W]

It is a BOTH/AND not an EITHER/OR.

Now that's about the closest I've seen to reconcile predestination and choice. I say closest because somewhere, somehow the two come together. In my personal experience I had no choice. But I've known people who have absolutely thrown themselves at the feet of Christ in desperation and frustration having no other way to go. I've known people to answer altar call. And I've known a couple fellows that tried their best to resist Christ but in time capitulated. One is a pastor and another entering into the process of becoming a minister. It's different with different people.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

And:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I see evidence for both. And I understand God is sovereign. I can also understand choice as I've been exposed to it from other people during my walk. But with scripture presenting both sides I can only express ambivalence to choosing one or the other as in EITHER/OR.
I have faith though that sooner or later I'll find out and probably not until I'm called home. But until then I'm just not convinced one is right and the other wrong. So I'll keep BOTH/AND in mind

In the meantime please understand that either way the result is the same. And that is the important thing is it not?

 

[Guest]

Now that's about the closest I've seen to reconcile predestination and choice. I say closest because somewhere, somehow the two come together. In my personal experience I had no choice. But I've known people who have absolutely thrown themselves at the feet of Christ in desperation and frustration having no other way to go. I've known people to answer altar call. And I've known a couple fellows that tried their best to resist Christ but in time capitulated. One is a pastor and another entering into the process of becoming a minister. It's different with different people.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

And:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I see evidence for both. And I understand God is sovereign. I can also understand choice as I've been exposed to it from other people during my walk. But with scripture presenting both sides I can only express ambivalence to choosing one or the other as in EITHER/OR.
I have faith though that sooner or later I'll find out and probably not until I'm called home. But until then I'm just not convinced one is right and the other wrong. So I'll keep BOTH/AND in mind

In the meantime please understand that either way the result is the same. And that is the important thing is it not?

I have posted this before, in another thread, so forgive the duplication:

I believe Acts 2:22-24 (Peter's first Sermon) shows the BOTH/AND of God's Soveirgnty and Man's Responsibility.

"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know - this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power."

God had a predetermined plan for Christ - which led to the Cross of Christ, however that did not absolve them of their responsibility of turning over Christ.

God's ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts - how it all "works' and the mechanics of it - is not really my concern. That is His! I trust in Him - therefore, I do not need to know the innerworkings of how it all "works".

What I do need to do is preach Christ crucified. To love kindness, do justice, and walk humbly with my God. That is my responsibility.

Trying to figure out if I have a free will or have been predestined provides for interesting discussions - but ultimately will not lead to fruitfulness if all I do is discuss Calvinism or Armenism.

One must wonder how Joshua could tell them to "choose" when they did not have a choice!

14"Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
15"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
16The people answered and said, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods

Joshua 24:14-16

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - there is no reason to insult, to suggest that I have not read the Bible or that I would make up a "god of my imagination."

How do you know that God chose you? Perhaps you were invited, but not chosen?

Not to mention, how do you know that your reconcilliation of the scriptures together is the correct interpretation.

If God desires that none perish, but then there are those that do - is God not able to fulfill His desires?

I ask these questions not out of ignorance, I was once a 5 point Calvinists - however, when I read the Bible and not just Calvin - I began to see that there is BOTH God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

It is a BOTH/AND not an EITHER/OR.

If you had read the bible, Alone, you wouldn't be asking me these questions. You would know the answers.

Because when the Holy Spirit came to me, the light in the room was so bright, that I saw the world differently. So I can no more take credit for choosing God than a man healed of blindness can claim he decided to see. :

So I get real tired of people who try as hard as they can to give humans the credit for God's work in them. They do that because they want Humans to have the control, not God. But it's as false as claiming that they chose themselves before the creation of the world. : "Faith is gift from God so that no one can boast." But humans just love to boast as does anyone who tries to take credit for God's work in him. Boasting is from the devil and humility is from the Spirit. So since we are responding to either God or the devil, then there is no free will anywhere. Sorry folks. ;-)

 

[Heidi]

Now that's about the closest I've seen to reconcile predestination and choice. I say closest because somewhere, somehow the two come together. In my personal experience I had no choice. But I've known people who have absolutely thrown themselves at the feet of Christ in desperation and frustration having no other way to go. I've known people to answer altar call. And I've known a couple fellows that tried their best to resist Christ but in time capitulated. One is a pastor and another entering into the process of becoming a minister. It's different with different people.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

And:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I see evidence for both. And I understand God is sovereign. I can also understand choice as I've been exposed to it from other people during my walk. But with scripture presenting both sides I can only express ambivalence to choosing one or the other as in EITHER/OR.
I have faith though that sooner or later I'll find out and probably not until I'm called home. But until then I'm just not convinced one is right and the other wrong. So I'll keep BOTH/AND in mind

In the meantime please understand that either way the result is the same. And that is the important thing is it not?

And what led them to Christ? God drew them as Jesus tells us. And since no pwoer is greater than God, then no, no one can resist his will. ;-) So once again, trying to take credit for God's work is from the sin of pride. The bible is all about God's power, not ours. We are to only glorify God, not ourselves.

 

[Guest]

If you had read the bible, Alone, you wouldn't be asking me these questions. You would know the answers.

Because when the Holy Spirit came to me, the light in the room was so bright, that I saw the world differently. So I can no more take credit for choosing God than a man healed of blindness can claim he decided to see. :

So I get real tired of people who try as hard as they can to give humans the credit for God's work in them. They do that because they want Humans to have the control, not God. But it's as false as claiming that they chose themselves before the creation of the world. :

Heidi - forgive the boasting of my part, however I do not ask questions out of ignornace of the Bible or it's teachings. Rather, I ask questions to see how others answer.

There are numerous examples in the NT when Jesus healed that Jesus acredited the healing to the person's faith. Noone is trying to give 'humans' the credit - the credit for our salavation rests squarely on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Of this noone is denying.

Do not confuss CREDIT with RESPONSIBILITY.

For example, when an associate does their job - do they get rewarded with "credit" - no. They are doing their job or their responsibility. WHen they go above and beyond their job - then they receive credit.

Here - the CREDIT goes to God - because He went above and beyond and provided Atonement for our sins - something that HE did NOT have to do.

However, we as humans, still have a RESPONSIBILITY to respond. This does not give us 'credit' - rather jsut the fulfillment of our responsibility.

Again - "Choose this day whom you will serve"!

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - forgive the boasting of my part, however I do not ask questions out of ignornace of the Bible or it's teachings. Rather, I ask questions to see how others answer.

There are numerous examples in the NT when Jesus healed that Jesus acredited the healing to the person's faith. Noone is trying to give 'humans' the credit - the credit for our salavation rests squarely on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Of this noone is denying.

Do not confuss CREDIT with RESPONSIBILITY.

For example, when an associate does their job - do they get rewarded with "credit" - no. They are doing their job or their responsibility. WHen they go above and beyond their job - then they receive credit.

Here - the CREDIT goes to God - because He went above and beyond and provided Atonement for our sins - something that HE did NOT have to do.

However, we as humans, still have a RESPONSIBILITY to respond. This does not give us 'credit' - rather jsut the fulfillment of our responsibility.

Again - "Choose this day whom you will serve"!

Yes, and God also tells us where that faith comes from. It's a gift from God. So that woman can no more boast about her faith than any of us can. People who have not been chosen can no more have faith in God than the devil can because they have been blinded by the devil and cannot see the light of the gospel as 2 Corinthians 4:4 tells us. Only Jesus has victory over Satan. Only the Holy Spirit can break through Satan's deception in people which is precisely why the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

So you may have read the bible, but you certainly don't believe much of it. If you did, you would know who is the ultimate power in the universe and it's not man or Satan. :roll:

 

[Vic C.]

Heidi,

You put this phrase in quotation marks:

"Faith is gift from God so that no one can boast."

Who or what you are quoting?

 

[Bubba]

Heidi,

You put this phrase in quotation marks:



Who or what you are quoting?

I am not Heidi but it is Ephesians 2:8-9

Bubba

 

[Rick W]

I understand what aLoneVoice is saying and I don't believe he hasn't read or understood scripture. The questions he asks are valid out of curiosity as far as I can tell. I don't believe the questions are to confront but rather to discuss a few points.
We all know the sovereigncy of God, that's not in question I don't believe. Yet, there is a certain something missing within us without God. Some refer to it as a God-shaped hole of sorts. I think there's an underlying need to fill that space, to make us whole, to be one with God. Some try to fill that empty space with all sorts of other things. Only God can fill that need, thereby His sovereigncy.

What is the drive to create a piece of Eden, to fashion a garden with flowers, shrubbery and running water such as fountains and the like. Could it be that deep down we know there really was such a place as Eden so we attempt to duplicate that atmosphere of peace? I don't know but it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

So I honestly believe there is a desire on the part of man to get back to where he once was, walking with God, in His presence, as man did in the Garden of Eden. That desire really shouldn't be ignored but lifted up and nurtured. There's a seed in there somewhere that needs God's increase. And only He can do that.

 

[Vic C.]

I am not Heidi but it is Ephesians 2:8-9

Bubba

Fair enough Bubba. We both know that isn't what Ephesians 2:8-9 says, so could one of you tell me why you think it even suggests that?

Thanks. 8-)

 

[Bubba]

Fair enough Bubba. We both know that isn't what Ephesians 2:8-9 says, so could one of you tell me why you think it even suggests that?

Thanks. 8-)

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Vic C.,
I think most reasonable people would agree that “faith†is the subject that is considered the “gift†and this gift is not something we gain by works. Coupled this verse with Romans 12:3, it is fairly obvious where our faith comes from. I think this is what Heidi was considering.

Bubba

 

[Vic C.]

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Vic C.,
I think most reasonable people would agree that “faith†is the subject that is considered the “gift†and this gift is not something we gain by works. Coupled this verse with Romans 12:3, it is fairly obvious where our faith comes from. I think this is what Heidi was considering.

Bubba

I disagree. I guess I am unreasonable then. :-D I am not saying that God doesn't deal out some faith to people, I am saying that using the Ephesians passage as proof text is wrong. If one breaks down the Greek grammar and puts it back together, one would understand that salvation is the gift in this verse. Grace is the method in which salvation is granted and faith is the means.

One element of faith is knowledge but trust is the main element of faith. Does God grant us trust too?

Since you brought up Romans 12:3, let me ask; do you believe God grants all He chooses to save, their Faith, or does God grant just some of who He chooses to save, their Faith?

 

[cyberjosh]

Do not confuss CREDIT with RESPONSIBILITY.

For example, when an associate does their job - do they get rewarded with "credit" - no. They are doing their job or their responsibility. WHen they go above and beyond their job - then they receive credit.

Here - the CREDIT goes to God - because He went above and beyond and provided Atonement for our sins - something that HE did NOT have to do.

However, we as humans, still have a RESPONSIBILITY to respond. This does not give us 'credit' - rather jsut the fulfillment of our responsibility.

This however does not change God's merciful and gracious dispensation of gifts and rewards to us in the end based on how we reacted to God's grace here in this present life. Some will be awarded more than others also: some thirty fold, some sixty, some a hundred fold.

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

I disagree. I guess I am unreasonable then. :-D I am not saying that God doesn't deal out some faith to people, I am saying that using the Ephesians passage as proof text is wrong. If one breaks down the Greek grammar and puts it back together, one would understand that salvation is the gift in this verse. Grace is the method in which salvation is granted and faith is the means.

One element of faith is knowledge but trust is the main element of faith. Does God grant us trust too?

Since you brought up Romans 12:3, let me ask; do you believe God grants all He chooses to save, their Faith, or does God grant just some of who He chooses to save, their Faith?

Actually that's not true. The verse reads; "For it is by faith you have been saved-and this not from yourselves-it is a gift from God, not by works, so that no one can boast." So it takes effort and quibbling about words to change that into that faith comes from ourselves. :

That also contradicts 1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

So Paul makes it crystal clear that the Holy Spirit is what makes people know and believe Jesus, period. That also agrees with Ephesians 2:8-9 without having to cvhange one word or use the "mistranslation" excuse. So people's attempts to take credit for their own faith are thwarted again by scripture. Sorry. :

 

[Bubba]

I disagree. I guess I am unreasonable then. :-D I am not saying that God doesn't deal out some faith to people, I am saying that using the Ephesians passage as proof text is wrong. If one breaks down the Greek grammar and puts it back together, one would understand that salvation is the gift in this verse. Grace is the method in which salvation is granted and faith is the means.

One element of faith is knowledge but trust is the main element of faith. Does God grant us trust too?

Since you brought up Romans 12:3, let me ask; do you believe God grants all He chooses to save, their Faith, or does God grant just some of who He chooses to save, their Faith?

Vic.C,
You may be right in respect to the word faith not being the actual “giftâ€Â, where salvation would be. I did a little research and many agree with you. My only argument would be, that unless God makes the individual alive he will not have faith (means), because he cannot discern spiritual truth (1Cor. 2:14) nor want to. Nonetheless, God measures out faith, according to Romans 12:3 some have great faith some little faith, but all the elect have saving faith. So, for us to be able to believe, (faith that Jesus is true), is still a gift, just Ephesians 2:8-9, may not be the best choice verses by itself to support it being a gift, but coupled with 1-7, there’s no doubt our ability to believe is from God.

You write: “Since you brought up Romans 12:3, let me ask; do you believe God grants all He chooses to save, their Faith, or does God grant just some of who He chooses to save, their Faith?â€Â

Our ability to have great faith or little faith, can vacillate in the individual for any given circumstance. Our ability to have consistent faith over a period of time can vacillate, but the fact we have any amount of faith in Jesus is a God thing. Yes, if we have any amount of faith at any given time and for any given circumstance is a product of God (Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:36). Every good gift does comes from God, (even for the heathen and pagan) so, trust (faith), perseverance, wisdom, discernment, love, joy, etc is from God.
Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Vic.C,
You may be right in respect to the word faith not being the actual “giftâ€Â, where salvation would be. I did a little research and many agree with you. My only argument would be, that unless God makes the individual alive he will not have faith (means), because he cannot discern spiritual truth (1Cor. 2:14) nor want to. Nonetheless, God measures out faith, according to Romans 12:3 some have great faith some little faith, but all the elect have saving faith. So, for us to be able to believe, (faith that Jesus is true), is still a gift, just Ephesians 2:8-9, may not be the best choice verses by itself to support it being a gift, but coupled with 1-7, there’s no doubt our ability to believe is from God.

You write: “Since you brought up Romans 12:3, let me ask; do you believe God grants all He chooses to save, their Faith, or does God grant just some of who He chooses to save, their Faith?â€Â

Our ability to have great faith or little faith, can vacillate in the individual for any given circumstance. Our ability to have consistent faith over a period of time can vacillate, but the fact we have any amount of faith in Jesus is a God thing. Yes, if we have any amount of faith at any given time and for any given circumstance is a product of God (Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:36). Every good gift does comes from God, (even for the heathen and pagan) so, trust (faith), perseverance, wisdom, discernment, love, joy, etc is from God.
Bubba

The only problem is that "and this not from yourselves" comes right after the word faith, not salvation. And 1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly says that the Holy Spirit is what gives us the ability to believe. So faith is absolutely not from ourselves because 2 Corinthians 4:4 tells us that unbelievers have been blinded and cannot see the light. So Ephesians is simple enough for a child to understand because children don't try to look up words to redefine like adults do.