Justification and the Lord's Prayer...

[cyberjosh]

We know that when we are justified we are imputed Christ's righteousness, for that is what justification literally means, and we know that we are forgiven, but we see another element in which it seems we must daily be forgiven for our sins. Some have noticed this element in the Bible and say that it is speaking of temporal forgiveness and is necessary so that we do not impede God's grace - but what I am talking about is in the Lord's Prayer. It says "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses". If justification was in view here there would be no need to ask for forgiveness or repent again, but since Christians have a dynamic experience of battling with the flesh we see here that we must ask for forgiveness. Jesus in a parable also told of a servant who was forgiven, but who in turn did not forgive his debtor, and so he was thrown into prison until he payed the last penny of his debt to his master. At the end of it he says, "So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds" (Matt 18:23-35). This parable is often called "the unmerciful servant" and it shows how mercy (grace) should be appropriated. If God gives grace to his children because of his love, and forgives them their debts, then we must in turn use that grace to show forgiveness to others. Sometimes we fail to do this, and it seems that God will withhold his grace from us until we repent of it. Freely we have been given, so freely we should give. Freely we have been forgiven, so freely we must forgive - or God says he won't forgive us for it. "But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins" (Matthew 6:14-15). But we must use God's grace appropriately.

Do you believe this is the context in which we may need to ask for daily forgiveness? I think God's grace operating in our lives may depend on it - else it would not be important.

What do you think?


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Rick W]

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 

[Vic C.]

Do you believe this is the context in which we may need to ask for daily forgiveness? I think God's grace operating in our lives may depend on it - else it would not be important.

For clarification purposes, we're not talking about Saving Grace, are we? If so, I say no! That Grace depends on nothing we do. If we are talking about the general Grace bestowed upon us daily, then I say, yes!

"But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins" (Matthew 6:14-15)

:o That, of course, is within the overall context of the Mount Sermon. How do we reconcile that against:

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[francisdesales]

We know that when we are justified we are imputed Christ's righteousness, for that is what justification literally means, and we know that we are forgiven, but we see another element in which it seems we must daily be forgiven for our sins. Some have noticed this element in the Bible and say that it is speaking of temporal forgiveness and is necessary so that we do not impede God's grace - but what I am talking about is in the Lord's Prayer. It says "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses". If justification was in view here there would be no need to ask for forgiveness or repent again, but since Christians have a dynamic experience of battling with the flesh we see here that we must ask for forgiveness. Jesus in a parable also told of a servant who was forgiven, but who in turn did not forgive his debtor, and so he was thrown into prison until he payed the last penny of his debt to his master. At the end of it he says, "So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds" (Matt 18:23-35). This parable is often called "the unmerciful servant" and it shows how mercy (grace) should be appropriated. If God gives grace to his children because of his love, and forgives them their debts, then we must in turn use that grace to show forgiveness to others. Sometimes we fail to do this, and it seems that God will withhold his grace from us until we repent of it. Freely we have been given, so freely we should give. Freely we have been forgiven, so freely we must forgive - or God says he won't forgive us for it. "But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins" (Matthew 6:14-15). But we must use God's grace appropriately.

Do you believe this is the context in which we may need to ask for daily forgiveness? I think God's grace operating in our lives may depend on it - else it would not be important.

What do you think?

All of this confusion goes away when one realizes that justification is not a permanent status once conferred and never a need to re-establish when (if) we grieviously sin.

Regards

 

[Vic C.]

All of this confusion goes away when one realizes that justification is not a permanent status once conferred and never a need to re-establish when (if) we grieviously sin.

Regards

No confusion here; I am justified by God's grace through my Faith in His Son, who died and was resurrected so that I may have eternal life. You see, He can only be sacrificed once, not over and over and over again..

The writer of Hebrews addressed this very issue in chapter 6.

Once and for all, man.

 

[francisdesales]

All of this confusion goes away when one realizes that justification is not a permanent status once conferred and never a need to re-establish when (if) we grieviously sin.

Regards

No confusion here; I am justified by God's grace through my Faith in His Son, who died and was resurrected so that I may have eternal life. You see, He can only be sacrificed once, not over and over and over again..

The writer of Hebrews addressed this very issue in chapter 6.

Once and for all, man.

Hebrews NOWHERE says "you are saved once and for all". You said that. The Scriptures note that Jesus died once and for all. But it doesn't follow that His work is applied to YOU once and for all. Hebrews makes this VERY clear in chapter 10, verses 23-27...

Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Strange words addressed to "once saved always saved" people, don't you think? THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS (for the willful sinner)...

Regards

 

[Rick W]

And we need help. A LOT of it. Christ knew this in John 17.

On another note:
In some ways I consider this (John 17) as the Lord's prayer for the one He taught was how we should pray, our prayer. But that's just me and my opinion. 8-)

 

[Drew]

All of this confusion goes away when one realizes that justification is not a permanent status once conferred and never a need to re-establish when (if) we grieviously sin.

Regards

No confusion here; I am justified by God's grace through my Faith in His Son, who died and was resurrected so that I may have eternal life. You see, He can only be sacrificed once, not over and over and over again..

The writer of Hebrews addressed this very issue in chapter 6.

Once and for all, man.

I am beginning to think that justification, while having elements of "taking place at the point of conversion" is really only "settled" at a point in the future as I think Romans 2 suggests in texts like the following (my bolding - I am not sure why the NASB uses capital letters for one phase):

"in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."

The doers of the law will be justified as Paul clearly states:

For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Some material from NT Wright on when justification occurs and on what basis it occurs:

I am fascinated by the way in which some of those most conscious of their reformation heritage shy away from Paul’s clear statements about future judgment according to works. It is not often enough remarked upon, for instance, that in the Thessalonian letters, and in Philippians, he looks ahead to the coming day of judgment and sees God’s favourable verdict not on the basis of the merits and death of Christ, but on the basis of his apostolic work. ‘What is our hope and joy and crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus Christ at his royal appearing? Is it not you? For you are our glory and our joy.’ (1 Thess. 3.19f.; cp. Phil. 2.16f.) I suspect that if you or I were to say such a thing, we could expect a swift rebuke of ‘nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling’. The fact that Paul does not feel obliged at every point to say this shows, I think, that he is not as concerned as we are about the danger of speaking of the things he himself has done – though sometimes, to be sure, he adds a rider, which proves my point, that it is not his own energy but that which God gives and inspires within him (1 Cor. 15.10; Col. 1.29). But he is still clear that the things he does in the present, by moral and physical effort, will count to his credit on the last day, precisely because they are the effective signs that the Spirit of the living Christ has been at work in him.

 

[Vic C.]

Yikes! Romans two again. Not for the Christian, who is "in" Christ.

"in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thess 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Did He die for you? Is there anything you can do to possibly repay God for that "paid in full" sacrifice?

yes and... no!

----------------------------------------------

Hebrews NOWHERE says "you are saved once and for all"

Man, nowhere did I even suggest that came from Hebrews. Please don't add words to my posts. Thank you.

THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS

BINGO! I omitted the "for the willful sinner" part because that is added to the perseverance of the saints doctrine.

 

[Drew]

Yikes! Romans two again. Not for the Christian, who is "in" Christ.

"in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thess 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Did He die for you? Is there anything you can do to possibly repay God for that "paid in full" sacrifice?

yes and... no!

I do not find the Thessalonians material to be at all supportive of your assertion that Romans 2 is not "for the Christian who is in Christ". What specifically in the text you quote argues your point? Verse 9 does not do the job since, at least as it is rendered in the version you provide. That verse can be legitimately read as an "open-ended" expression of God's intended destiny for us - that we obtain salvation. However the use of the "future" tense - "to obtain salvation" is open to both your view and my view. I expect you see this as "to obtain salvation at the point of conversion" whereas I can see it as "to obtain salvation on the day of judgment, in accordance with works-based evidence as to the reality of your faith.

However, the Romans text seems to clearly support the "day of judgement" interpretation in respect to the conferring of eternal life:

"in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."

And verse 10 is not convincing either, with its reference to the fact that we "should" live together with Him - again a flavour of a future tense that is entirely consistent with a justification verdict rendered at the day of judgement. I think that the Romans 2 text does not have this ambiguity and the only argument you would have is to claim that Romans 2 is not talking about Gentile Christians. Which is what you seem to be doing. But I don't think that 1 Thess 5 material makes this case for you.

Based on your past posts, I assume that you think that the Romans 2 verse is directed at those who never heard the gospel? If so, why would Paul write about this in his letter to the church at Rome, whose members have obviously heard the Good News?

Anyways, always good to dialog with you and let the arguments be presented for everyone's consideration and reflection.

 

[Vic C.]

I do not find the Thessalonians material to be at all supportive of your assertion that Romans 2 is not "for the Christian who is in Christ"

It's not. It was a response to the verse you quotes, which was about wrath. i used the Thess quote to support that we Christians, are not subjected to His Wrath.

I'm going to call it quits on this and the "Lose it" thread. I view salvation in a different light. I rest assured in the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. I also rest in the knowledge that while I was yet a sinner, Jesus died for me. I did nothing to merit my salvation and see there's nothing I can do to lose it. That's what perseverance of the saints is; it's knowing God is sovereign and will keep me from doing anything that may warrant losing my salvation. But we should understand that's impossible anyway, for Jesus says He will lose no one the Father gave to Him.

 

[Guest]

I'm going to call it quits on this and the "Lose it" thread. I view salvation in a different light. I rest assured in the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. I also rest in the knowledge that while I was yet a sinner, Jesus died for me. I did nothing to merit my salvation and see there's nothing I can do to lose it. That's what perseverance of the saints is; it's knowing God is sovereign and will keep me from doing anything that may warrant losing my salvation. But we should understand that's impossible anyway, for Jesus says He will lose no one the Father gave to Him.

BINGO!

John 6:35-40

35Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

36"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

 

[Drew]

I'm going to call it quits on this and the "Lose it" thread. I view salvation in a different light. I rest assured in the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. I also rest in the knowledge that while I was yet a sinner, Jesus died for me. I did nothing to merit my salvation and see there's nothing I can do to lose it. That's what perseverance of the saints is; it's knowing God is sovereign and will keep me from doing anything that may warrant losing my salvation. But we should understand that's impossible anyway, for Jesus says He will lose no one the Father gave to Him.

BINGO!

John 6:35-40

35Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

36"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

This text is only consistent with the view you hold. The problem is that it is also consistent with other views. One view that works perfectly well with this text, with particular emphasis on verse 40, is the view that "those who truly believe in the Son will manifest that belief by works - and the absence of those works is indicative of a lack of belief. Only those who really do believe - as evidenced by their works - will be raised up on the last day." I submit that you have implicitly assumed that "belief = knowledge". You may be right, but I have very grave doubts.

I think that many people come to the Bible with pre-conceptions and force its teaching into that framework that they bring. For example, in 21st century western society it seems conceptually coherent to separate a "belief" from an action. Let say that Fred declares "I believe that drinking and driving is bad". Then Fred gets drunk and drives. We, in this culture and at this time, would simply say that Fred's actions are at odds with his belief. He still believes that drinking and driving are wrong. Fine.

I suspect that in the culture of those who wrote the Scriptures such a distinction might not have existed. To quote Forrest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does". Here is what I think the key point is: we must let the Scriptures "define" what belief really is for us and not bring pre-suppositions into the process. One way I think we do that is we look at all the warnings about falling away such as Hebrews 6:4-6

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

It seems very hard for me to reconcile this text with a belief that a Christian cannot fall away after a conversion event. And I think it is texts like these that should cause us to reconsider whether we have brought our own 21st century definition of the concept of "belief" and used that definition to inform our interpretation of the John passage quoted above with the result that we think an act of intellectual assent secures eteranal life.

Instead, we should look at the Scriptures to see whether such an interpretation of what it means to "believe" can really be sustained. I do not think that it can.

I tend to think that Romans 2:5-7 is the fatal blow to the position that one "gets saved" at a certain point in life and cannot lose that status afterwards. Here is Romans 2:11 in NASB:

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

I see this text as unambiguously stating that the grounds for getting eternal life is "perserverence in doing good". Please explain to me how this text can be read any other way.

 

[Vic C.]

Have fun and be very careful what you say here. I don't want to see you lose your salvation over it... and over some words on a message board no less! :o I'm out... 8-)

 

[Drew]

Have fun and be very careful what you say here. I don't want to see you lose your salvation over it... and over some words on a message board no less! :o I'm out... 8-)

I sense an implication that if it were possible for someone to "lose their salvation", people would be continually in danger of "slipping back" over the line into the fire and that somehow God could not have possibly made things so uncertain, so volatile.

While I empathize with such an objection, I think it once again effectively entails us coming to the Scriptures with pre-conceptions on how things must be. If someone could explain how Hebrews 6:4-6 is consistent with a "once-saved-always-saved" position, I am all ears. Not to mention a pile of other texts that seem to clearly allude to the possibility of falling away.

Besides, I think that the "what if I tell a little white lie seconds before I die" objection (which I think is also implicit in what Vic has written) is really not legitimate. I think it is entirely reasonable to construe "falling away" as involving a purposeful, sustained abandonment of the call to follow Jesus. One would not be disqualified from the kingdom by "the occasional sin now and then". And I do not intend to make light of "occasional" sin.

I know what people will say - even one little sin is enough to consign us to the fire. This is true for those for who have not accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. But it does not follow that one "little sin" is enough to dislodge us from our "steadfast position in Christ". But I still see the Scriptures as clearly warning us about falling away.

I would personally feel a lot better if I could be convinced that OSAS was true.

But my premise is that we must let the Scriptures speak to us, not the other way around. And I think we may be allowing our distaste for the uncertainty involved in accepting a "one can fall away" position to colour our judgement.

The fact that we feel uncomfortable and uncertain with a state of affairs where one can fall away does not mean that we cannot, in fact, fall away.

 

[francisdesales]

I am beginning to think that justification, while having elements of "taking place at the point of conversion" is really only "settled" at a point in the future as I think Romans 2 suggests in texts like the following (my bolding - I am not sure why the NASB uses capital letters for one phase):

"in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."

Drew,

Catholics would agree with your statement. There are elements of justification, salvation, at our baptism, at accepting Jesus as our Savior, but there are also elements of salvation refered to as being received in the future. It seems Paul spoke of salvation as a past event, a present one, and a future one. It appears part of the problem of the "OSAS" crowd is that they focus on the acceptance of Jesus as salvation without considering that "being saved" is about being freed to follow Christ, to become fully man and follow our goal in life - to be happy and united with God, first here in this life, and to follow in the next completely. This "freedom", however, does not guarantee that we will not "grieve the Holy Spirit" or reject Christ by "returning to the vomit" of our past life. To me, that is the only explanation of the Bible's CONTINUOUS exhortation to persevere! There seems to be no point in persevering if we cannot give away our inheritance set aside by God for us.

As a result, I believe some Protestants only look at part of the Scriptural picture when they see salvation as ONLY a past event, already accomplished. It fails to recognize that we can give up our status if we choose. Thus, it is a failure to understand the role of perseverance and asking for forgiveness of sins after baptism.

By the way, I also enjoy NT Wright's work.

Regards

 

[Guest]

It appears part of the problem of the "OSAS" crowd is that they focus on the acceptance of Jesus as salvation without considering that "being saved" is about being freed to follow Christ, to become fully man and follow our goal in life - to be happy and united with God, first here in this life, and to follow in the next completely.

That problem is that what you described is not 'salvation' - but sanctification. I would also suggest that it is not "our" goal but God's will that we are to follow in our lives.

 

[francisdesales]

It appears part of the problem of the "OSAS" crowd is that they focus on the acceptance of Jesus as salvation without considering that "being saved" is about being freed to follow Christ, to become fully man and follow our goal in life - to be happy and united with God, first here in this life, and to follow in the next completely.

That problem is that what you described is not 'salvation' - but sanctification. I would also suggest that it is not "our" goal but God's will that we are to follow in our lives.

How is a person "saved" who is still a slave to sin? What sort of theology are you pushing?

You can pretend all you want, but a Christian who is entralled with a serious sin, say, adultery, is not "saved" from sin! That is basically a lie, no matter how much you claim the opposite. A person is "saved" from sin when they are able to say "no" to temptations such as those. Sanctification and salvation are synonymous terms in Scriptures.

As to "our" goal, it certainly is my goal to be united with Christ. I can choose to accept the graces to realize that goal. Or not. I am not a puppet. God obviously has a plan for me, but I am part of that plan, not a spectator without free will.

Regards

 

[Guest]

How is a person "saved" who is still a slave to sin? What sort of theology are you pushing?

You can pretend all you want, but a Christian who is entralled with a serious sin, say, adultery, is not "saved" from sin! That is basically a lie, no matter how much you claim the opposite. A person is "saved" from sin when they are able to say "no" to temptations such as those. Sanctification and salvation are synonymous terms in Scriptures.

No, they are not synonymous. Did not Paul say that he was the chief among sinners? Are you suggesting that Paul was not 'saved'?

As to "our" goal, it certainly is my goal to be united with Christ. I can choose to accept the graces to realize that goal. Or not. I am not a puppet. God obviously has a plan for me, but I am part of that plan, not a spectator without free will.

Regards

There is no such thing as 'free will'. While we might have a 'will' it is by no means 'free' - rather it is limited by physical, mental, and spiritual means. Have you been able to fly? Even if you have 'willed' it. The only reason you want to be united with Christ is because of the Holy Spirit convicting you.

 

[cyberjosh]

[quote:36dc1]But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins" (Matthew 6:14-15)

:o That, of course, is within the overall context of the Mount Sermon. How do we reconcile that against:

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.[/quote:36dc1]

Well even that verse doesn't mean all men will be forgiven their sins, else this would include unbelievers and pull on a universal reconcilliation doctrine. Notice though, when trying to reconcile these, that the servant did recieve forgiveness, but then failed in turn to show the same mercy to another. At that point God will no longer forgive you if you do not forgive as you have been forgiven (grace). And perhaps that is a manifestation of blaspeming the Holy Spirit: failing to use the grace he gives us to act consistantly with the Spirit of Christ in us. If God is love and he loved us, we should love others, else we seem to insult God's grace.

Just some thoughts.

~Josh