Bible Study Justifying Works

[netchaplain]

The Greek usage for “justify” has two primary definitions* and in all cases for all words the context determines the usage. I) to render one to be righteous; II) to show or manifest one has been rendered righteous. Since there is only One who is just, it is only He who can render one to be justified (I), and that by imputation only:

“To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom 3:26 – render, I).

“It is God who justifies” (Rom 8:33 – render, I).

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God” (Rom 4:2 – render I).

“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only” (Jam 2:24 – show, II).

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar” (Jam 2:21 – show II)?

“Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way” (Jam 2:24 – show II)?

Even the forgiveness of sins in the prior dispensation were based on faith in God through the sacrificial ordinance, which God accounted to Christ's coming atonement. Until Christ, there could be no remission of sins but instead it was “forbearance,” passing over or overlooking the judgement and punishment of the believers in God.

“God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed (Rom 3:25); “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent” (Act 17:30). The “setting forth” is in reference to applying the Blood of Christ in His “propitiation” ahead of time to the OT believers, which was “shadowed” (Heb 10:1) in the sin sacrifices of the Law.


* https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1344&t=KJV (using definitions I and II).


- NC

 

[Chopper]

Good one Chaplain. I can't get enough of the doctrine of justification & propitiation. I can't praise the Lord enough that my sins are not just "passed over" but Christ Jesus' death, shed Blood, and resurrection, paid my debt, and made atonement, AT-ONE-MENT with Him and His Father. Hey, I'm forgiven! My sin in Adam has been erased. I have a new nature! Glory to God Who is the Author of Salvation, and the Holy Spirit Who never gave up on me, and called me for a period of 10 years until I surrendered to the Gospel of Jesus the Son of God and became His child.

Again, I'm forgiven! I can stand being in poor health, I'm forgiven! I can put up with the lack of finances, I'm forgiven! If persecution comes my way, I hope to stand the test because I'M FORGIVEN. Glory to Jehovah my Elohim.

 

[netchaplain]

Good one Chaplain. I can't get enough of the doctrine of justification & propitiation. I can't praise the Lord enough that my sins are not just "passed over" but Christ Jesus' death, shed Blood, and resurrection, paid my debt, and made atonement, AT-ONE-MENT with Him and His Father. Hey, I'm forgiven! My sin in Adam has been erased. I have a new nature! Glory to God Who is the Author of Salvation, and the Holy Spirit Who never gave up on me, and called me for a period of 10 years until I surrendered to the Gospel of Jesus the Son of God and became His child.

Again, I'm forgiven! I can stand being in poor health, I'm forgiven! I can put up with the lack of finances, I'm forgiven! If persecution comes my way, I hope to stand the test because I'M FORGIVEN. Glory to Jehovah my Elohim.

Hi Chopper, and thanks for the encouraging reply! I know what you mean, I call it reset to Jesus, when I start drifting from the "Joy of the Lord." Yes, He always causes everything to work together and nearly always there is soak-time involved to allow our faith to take advantage of the most important part of our spiritual growth--trusting God before it works out, because after the resolution that faith lesson is done.

Same for this life, God desires us to recall, during the trial as much as possible, that He eventually "works" it out, regardless the panic or confusion, then faith is resting from the exercise. As we know this life is the only time faith will be used so get your's as much as possible, for soon and very soon we'll be walking by sight, not by faith!

 

[smaller]

Early in every believers lives, we have "mental assent" not necessarily "experienced" assent to faith in Christ with regards to Gods Grace and Mercy.

I can't speak to the experience of others, only to my own. It has seemed to me, many many times, that difficulties do arise. And we go through various stages of "testing" our own faith. Perhaps thinking that if we think to do something, anything, that God will bless us in the way of that doing. And often it turns out to be the opposite case. That we are spurned in doing good. That others turn against us. That we even turn against ourselves, blaming ourselves for not listening, because God did not bless.

It can be a vicious circle. And that circle very often turns into a dead end, sometimes to the point where we don't even want to make a move at all, because the blessings of God do not come.

And, again, from experience and in retrospect GOD IN CHRIST was there, providing a way we did not see, a direction we did not anticipate, a resolution we did not foresee. This too, I have experienced in dramatic fashions. Dramatic.

So, today, as I live, facing whatever dire mountains of obstacles seem to be in my way, I see these things from God, and stand, with PATIENCE for Him to show me HIS WAYS.

And this can be very difficult, this patience. It is not easy when the world, people, our own bodies and minds turn against us. It is very hard to stand in patience. But, we are to carry on with doing good. Not putting our own necks in a self restricting vise grip, taking care to be responsible. To put one foot in front of another and walk in faith, even where there appears to be absolutely nothing to walk towards or into.

I was fortunate to have many elders in faith describe this process to me early in my faith life, as I was facing a dire set of mountains and obstacles. So much so that it seemed like God was actually cursing me, rather than blessing. And I DO believe this WAS the case. He was absolutely shutting me DOWN. There were many lessons learned in that cursing and that shutting down. And there were also, over the process of time, glorious resolutions, beyond what I had hoped for or expected.

Yet all that time, other mountains were being formed. More formidable than the last.

I'd like to think I learned the tests of patience, but these tests also tend to be "progressive." So much so that I have quaked, feared and trembled exceedingly before my Maker, knowing full well that GOD is in fact behind them all. This is, shall we say, a most frightening and most enlightening experience. Both terrifying and wonderful. It's like being herded by The Shepherd. The pastures can get quite thin at times. Quite. And then I beller, just like the little sheep I am. And often, I cry. Often. My tears have many times, transposed me, as I am wrenched out before my Maker, down to nothing. And there on the bed of tears, I find that nothing quite restful, after my tears, knowing there is nothing but to trust in Him who takes and leads by the Way.

 

[netchaplain]

Early in every believers lives, we have "mental assent" not necessarily "experienced" assent to faith in Christ with regards to Gods Grace and Mercy.

I can't speak to the experience of others, only to my own. It has seemed to me, many many times, that difficulties do arise. And we go through various stages of "testing" our own faith. Perhaps thinking that if we think to do something, anything, that God will bless us in the way of that doing. And often it turns out to be the opposite case. That we are spurned in doing good. That others turn against us. That we even turn against ourselves, blaming ourselves for not listening, because God did not bless.

It can be a vicious circle. And that circle very often turns into a dead end, sometimes to the point where we don't even want to make a move at all, because the blessings of God do not come.

And, again, from experience and in retrospect GOD IN CHRIST was there, providing a way we did not see, a direction we did not anticipate, a resolution we did not foresee. This too, I have experienced in dramatic fashions. Dramatic.

So, today, as I live, facing whatever dire mountains of obstacles seem to be in my way, I see these things from God, and stand, with PATIENCE for Him to show me HIS WAYS.

And this can be very difficult, this patience. It is not easy when the world, people, our own bodies and minds turn against us. It is very hard to stand in patience. But, we are to carry on with doing good. Not putting our own necks in a self restricting vise grip, taking care to be responsible. To put one foot in front of another and walk in faith, even where there appears to be absolutely nothing to walk towards or into.

I was fortunate to have many elders in faith describe this process to me early in my faith life, as I was facing a dire set of mountains and obstacles. So much so that it seemed like God was actually cursing me, rather than blessing. And I DO believe this WAS the case. He was absolutely shutting me DOWN. There were many lessons learned in that cursing and that shutting down. And there were also, over the process of time, glorious resolutions, beyond what I had hoped for or expected.

Yet all that time, other mountains were being formed. More formidable than the last.

I'd like to think I learned the tests of patience, but these tests also tend to be "progressive." So much so that I have quaked, feared and trembled exceedingly before my Maker, knowing full well that GOD is in fact behind them all. This is, shall we say, a most frightening and most enlightening experience. Both terrifying and wonderful. It's like being herded by The Shepherd. The pastures can get quite thin at times. Quite. And then I beller, just like the little sheep I am. And often, I cry. Often. My tears have many times, transposed me, as I am wrenched out before my Maker, down to nothing. And there on the bed of tears, I find that nothing quite restful, after my tears, knowing there is nothing but to trust in Him who takes and leads by the Way.

Thanks Smaller for your sincere reply! Not knowing you personally it's difficult to choose what to reply, but one thing the believer can always know, God never "punishes" those who are His, which are those who believe in Him because He always instead chastises us "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Have you ever seen a diamond before a master craftsman begins their work. They are not very beautiful but the finished product is brilliant and reflects light that sparkles. A diamond cutter has to be very careful because if the stone is struck to hard it will shatter and is useless except maybe to cut glass. If he tries to make too big a cut, then that which has a brilliance will be separated and cause the diamond to be less valuable. Every thing about the shaping of the diamond to make it more valuable has to be accomplished with small cuts and in the right places. It is not something that is accomplished speedily. A little bit here, a little bit there, and after great patience, a priceless gem. This is the way that God does us, He chips away slowly and consistently and one day we will help make up his jewels.

 

[AirDancer]

dirtfarmer here

Have you ever seen a diamond before a master craftsman begins their work. They are not very beautiful but the finished product is brilliant and reflects light that sparkles. A diamond cutter has to be very careful because if the stone is struck to hard it will shatter and is useless except maybe to cut glass. If he tries to make too big a cut, then that which has a brilliance will be separated and cause the diamond to be less valuable. Every thing about the shaping of the diamond to make it more valuable has to be accomplished with small cuts and in the right places. It is not something that is accomplished speedily. A little bit here, a little bit there, and after great patience, a priceless gem. This is the way that God does us, He chips away slowly and consistently and one day we will help make up his jewels.

What a beautiful comparison! And so spot on

 

[netchaplain]

dirtfarmer here

Have you ever seen a diamond before a master craftsman begins their work. They are not very beautiful but the finished product is brilliant and reflects light that sparkles. A diamond cutter has to be very careful because if the stone is struck to hard it will shatter and is useless except maybe to cut glass. If he tries to make too big a cut, then that which has a brilliance will be separated and cause the diamond to be less valuable. Every thing about the shaping of the diamond to make it more valuable has to be accomplished with small cuts and in the right places. It is not something that is accomplished speedily. A little bit here, a little bit there, and after great patience, a priceless gem. This is the way that God does us, He chips away slowly and consistently and one day we will help make up his jewels.

Very nice analogy of the Spirit's "conforming" (Rom 8:29) post salvation!

 

[smaller]

God never "punishes" those who are His, which are those who believe in Him because He always instead chastises us "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.

Chastisements, tribulations, "punishments" are a reality of God for believers, easily proven by scriptures and, for some anyway, in life. Sometimes "vividly" so.

And I would add that doing 'justifying' or 'good' works won't change the above. There is a mindset in works salvation proponents that they do good works to avoid punishment, particularly of the eternal kind. That mindset, I reject. Good works will not result in a deflection of chastisements, tribulations and punishments. It will more (scripturally) predictably often result in the exact opposite.

The short track to understanding "why" this is so and is true is here:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This factual contrariness and the "active" state of opposition is never removed as long as we live in our vile body. Phil. 3:21.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Chastisements, tribulations, "punishments" are a reality of God for believers, easily proven by scriptures and, for some anyway, in life. Sometimes "vividly" so.

And I would add that doing 'justifying' or 'good' works won't change the above. There is a mindset in works salvation proponents that they do good works to avoid punishment, particularly of the eternal kind. That mindset, I reject. Good works will not result in a deflection of chastisements, tribulations and punishments. It will more (scripturally) predictably often result in the exact opposite.

The short track to understanding "why" this is so and is true is here:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This factual contrariness and the "active" state of opposition is never removed as long as we live in our vile body. Phil. 3:21.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Can you prove that "punishments" are a reality for Christians? I understand chastisements and tribulations, but it is my understanding that Christ has suffered as my punishment for the nature of sin that I once was subject to. Now I am dead to sin in Christ and am no more subject punishment for that nature.

Galatians 2:8-10 " For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (not a gift of God) Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Is there a difference between doing good works and walking in them?

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Can you prove that "punishments" are a reality for Christians? I understand chastisements and tribulations,

Prove from scripture? Of course. Just did, from Gal. 5:17, showing and proving that the Spirit is actively AGAINST the flesh. And I could do a several page pile on here of scriptures showing and proving this reality. But, will the flesh accept this quite simple conclusion? Never. It's not possible for the flesh to take on the reality that it is against the Spirit. IT will instead lie and claim otherwise or it will claim "exemption."

but it is my understanding that Christ has suffered as my punishment for the nature of sin that I once was subject to. Now I am dead to sin in Christ and am no more subject punishment for that nature.

Paul taught very clearly that God is not mocked in these matters. Whatever we sow, that we reap. So, for example, IF we lie, IF we are hypocrites about our own standing in "contrariness" with our own flesh, we "reap" the reward called "Spiritual blindness" to that reality. And yes, that IS Divine Punishment. A very common form of punishment "in the churches" I might add. God puts out our "spiritual eyes." He deafens our 'spiritual ears.' So we can not hear and can not be truthful about our own fleshly contrariness.

Galatians 2:8-10 " For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (not a gift of God) Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Is there a difference between doing good works and walking in them?

Whatever 'works' we do, we do just as Paul did, with evil present with us. Romans 7:21. The only question from there is "who can tell the truth" of this?

I think Paul was exceptionally truthful. Now, you tell me if God is KIND to evil present, or if God PUNISHES evil present?

I will submit that God in Christ is always against evil present with us, period. There is no reasonably escaping this conclusion.

When we "understand" this we submit to the "condemnation" of God in Christ, just as Paul did for himself in Romans 7, which resulted in Paul's sight, in Romans 8:3. Paul submitted his own flesh, to that conclusion.

WHEN we understand that whatever "works" we do, we do with "evil present" with us, the entire notion of "works for salvation" flies quickly out the window. And we land quite securely on salvation by faith in Christ, through Gods "unmerited" Grace and Mercy, ALONE.

Will good works arise from there? Of course. I might even submit that truthfulness springs forth from "honest" hearts. They will see that all their claims of "works for salvation" are a fallacy and an obvious lie, when we look upon ourselves, honestly.

Our "reward" for any good work is in the NOW. We obtain, all of us, an INSTANT reward for good works. Who has not felt, IN THE NOW, the WARMTH in their own heart for DOING GOOD?

That is JESUS IN US, affirming HIS DIRECTIVES.

And any believer who TASTES this WARMTH will be continually driven INTO Him.

And they will engage in good works, if for no other reason, than to TORTURE their own evil present.

I also dislike the taste of dishonesty. This drives me away from Christ, and my heart gets COLD. I know whatever work I do, I do just like Paul, with evil present with me. This too drives me ever further into His Grace and Mercy. So, yes, I love Gods Truth in these matters. It is a warmth to my heart, not to have to be "dishonest."

 

[Eugene]

But, we are to carry on with doing good.

Practicing righteousness is a quality with reward. Being righteous is bestowed by being in Christ but there is more as shown below available. Php 3:8 speaks of a whole other pursuit available and that is winning Christ.
Rev 19:7 . . the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness (Strongs 1345 - Righteous Acts or deeds) of saints.

Other instances of the word righteousness use Strong’s Greek 1343 meaning being in an approved state.

My tears have many times, transposed me, as I am wrenched out before my Maker, down to nothing.

You speak of diamonds being polished as it were, and diamond dust is often applied while grinding to a surface while in a clamp until a certain facet is attained, and then it is turned and repeated until a beautiful creation minus the roughness it first appeared in much like other stones around it. We too are being separated from the world such as the Strong's 1343 righteousness in how we think, feel, and act. We are the work of our Father as He conforms us unto the very image of our Savior Jesus.

My thoughts.

 

[smaller]

Rev 19:7 . . the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Our final deliverance is spoken of directly by Paul in Phil. 3:21 in change of raiment, from the temporal to the permanent, by the power of Christ, revealed "in us."

Our final deliverance is foreshadowed in the O.T. One of my favorite foreshadows seen here:

Exodus 2:24
And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

God hears our groaning too, again, directed to observe, by Paul here:

Romans 8:
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This is "why" we do so groan, just as Paul did groan:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Good works accompanied by groaning is the path of our redemption, leading to the conclusion that is IN HIM, His Own Power, coming upon us all.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Our final deliverance is spoken of directly by Paul in Phil. 3:21 in change of raiment, from the temporal to the permanent, by the power of Christ, revealed "in us."

Our final deliverance is foreshadowed in the O.T. One of my favorite foreshadows seen here:

Exodus 2:24
And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

God hears our groaning too, again, directed to observe, by Paul here:

Romans 8:
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This is "why" we do so groan, just as Paul did groan:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Good works accompanied by groaning is the path of our redemption, leading to the conclusion that is IN HIM, His Own Power, coming upon us all.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Salvation comes in 3 stages.
We have been saved from the penalty of sin. NOW
We have been saved from the power of sin. NOW
We will be saved from the presence of sin. future Romans 8:23 THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

I am sorry, but I can't agree with your last statement. Good works with groaning is not our path to redemption. Our path to redemption is faith in Jesus Christ as our redeemer is the only path to redemption.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Salvation comes in 3 stages.
We have been saved from the penalty of sin. NOW

I don't believe the evil present with any believer gets a free pass from God. Sorry.

Nor do I believe believers pay a permanent penalty for sin in eternal hell.

The judgment of God can be a complex matter to understand. Not necessarily for novices. For example, we can read Paul's two statements here from Romans,

Romans 2:
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Then we turn to and observe Paul's own words, here:

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

IF we think that God "double deals" these matters, one for us as believers, and another standard for everyone else who does evil, I'd suggest that is not the case. I might even suggest that God deals even more harshly with any evil done by believers, who are held to a higher standard, because we should know better than to be pawns of evil.

We have been saved from the power of sin. NOW

Again, were that really the case we would not find Paul being so honest, would we? Paul never described himself as 'sinless.' He in fact claimed the opposite case, that he was the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

So at some point we might ask ourselves some more serious questions about sin and evil as it relates to Paul and believers in general.

We will be saved from the presence of sin. future Romans 8:23 THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

I don't doubt that whatsoever.

I am sorry, but I can't agree with your last statement. Good works with groaning is not our path to redemption.

If we understand that "evil" is present with us, we should assuredly groan. But even recognizing this fact is a working of God in Christ, by those who speak "honestly" about it. I might call that a rare event in today's christianity.

Our path to redemption is faith in Jesus Christ as our redeemer is the only path to redemption.

Never said otherwise. But I do think the fruit of honesty is to be found with believers. And when we are honest about our state of affairs, we will in fact groan, not only for ourselves, but for others as well. Just as Paul did in Romans 9:1-2. We are to also have sympathy for others also, knowing our own constant needs of His Grace and Mercy in Christ and knowing their spiritual blindness to His Finer Conveyances of that Mercy and Grace.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I don't believe the evil present with any believer gets a free pass from God. Sorry.

Nor do I believe believers pay a permanent penalty for sin in eternal hell.

The judgment of God can be a complex matter to understand. Not necessarily for novices. For example, we can read Paul's two statements here from Romans,

Romans 2:
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Then we turn to and observe Paul's own words, here:

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

IF we think that God "double deals" these matters, one for us as believers, and another standard for everyone else who does evil, I'd suggest that is not the case. I might even suggest that God deals even more harshly with any evil done by believers, who are held to a higher standard, because we should know better than to be pawns of evil.



Again, were that really the case we would not find Paul being so honest, would we? Paul never described himself as 'sinless.' He in fact claimed the opposite case, that he was the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

So at some point we might ask ourselves some more serious questions about sin and evil as it relates to Paul and believers in general.


I don't doubt that whatsoever.


If we understand that "evil" is present with us, we should assuredly groan. But even recognizing this fact is a working of God in Christ, by those who speak "honestly" about it. I might call that a rare event in today's christianity.


Never said otherwise. But I do think the fruit of honesty is to be found with believers. And when we are honest about our state of affairs, we will in fact groan, not only for ourselves, but for others as well. Just as Paul did in Romans 9:1-2. We are to also have sympathy for others also, knowing our own constant needs of His Grace and Mercy in Christ and knowing their spiritual blindness to His Finer Conveyances of that Mercy and Grace.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Believers don't pay any penalty. Christ paid it for us on the cross.

In 1 Timothy 1:15 Paul is not saying that he is still a sinner. He states many time that he is in the kingdom of God's dear Son, a saint. If you would study verse 15, Paul is making the statement that he was the first, a blueprint or pattern, to preach the gospel of the grace of God.

As to the judgments, all will be judged by Christ; the believer for their works at the "Bema Seat" to determine the type of rewards, not for an entrance into heaven. That was secured when we believed in Christ.
The unbeliever will also be judged by Christ after the 1000 year reign. They will be judged by the number of time that they rejected the Holy Spirit's conviction and the degree of punishment will be dealt as to how many times they had heard the gospel and rejected it.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Believers don't pay any penalty. Christ paid it for us on the cross.

I wouldn't be so sure about that:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

In 1 Timothy 1:15 Paul is not saying that he is still a sinner.

I'd suggest a closer read of the facts. "sinners, of whom I am chief" looks pretty obviously "present tense" application, I AM, to me. Otherwise it should be changed to "I was" or "I used to be." But that's not what it really says is it?

 

[Jesus_Is_His_Name]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Salvation comes in 3 stages.
We have been saved from the penalty of sin. NOW
We have been saved from the power of sin. NOW
We will be saved from the presence of sin. future Romans 8:23 THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

I am sorry, but I can't agree with your last statement. Good works with groaning is not our path to redemption. Our path to redemption is faith in Jesus Christ as our redeemer is the only path to redemption.

I agree dirtfarmer. The last statement is out of reach. Also good works will get us nowhere. It's not by works.

Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello smaller

I wouldn't be so sure about that:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


I'd suggest a closer read of the facts. "sinners, of whom I am chief" looks pretty obviously "present tense" application, I AM, to me. Otherwise it should be changed to "I was" or "I used to be." But that's not what it really says is it?

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I will hold fast to what I have written.

 

[Jim Parker]

The Greek usage for “justify” has two primary definitions* and in all cases for all words the context determines the usage. I) to render one to be righteous; II) to show or manifest one has been rendered righteous.

The application of such a human (pagan Greek) view of justice has caused the distortion of God's work in the salvation of mankind.

The Greek word rendered justified, just, righteous, etc. is DIKAIOSUNE.

The word DIKAIOSUNE, "justice", is a translation of the Hebraic word “tsedaka.” This word means "the divine energy which accomplishes man's salvation". It is parallel and almost synonymous to the other Hebraic word, “hesed” which means "mercy", "compassion", "love", and to the word, “emeth” which means "fidelity", "truth". This, as you see, gives a completely other dimension to what we usually conceive as justice.5 This is how the Church understood God's justice. This is what the Fathers of the Church taught of it. ("THE RIVER OF FIRE" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS, 1980 ORTHODOX CONFERENCE)

By applying the pagan Greek understanding of justice to the scripture which arose from the Hebrews, western Catholic and Protestant theologians have adopted the Roman Catholic teaching of Anselm of Canterbury that man's sin required a "just" and equal punishment. It imposed a legalism into the New Testament by which God demands punishment for every violation of His holy law and sin as a violation of God's holy law.

Scripture says that sin is falling short of the glory of God. (Ro. 3:23) That is a reflection of the fact that we were created in the image and likeness of God with the purpose of being like God. That is God's purpose for all who believe; to be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom 8:29) Sin is not a grievous offense against God; it is a failure to act in perfect love as does Jesus.

The application of a legal definition to the word "DIKAIOSUNE" has given rise to the false notions of a God who is ready to punish every offense against Him with eternal torture in the fires of hell.

That is a gross distortion of the God of scripture who so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

iakov the fool