Bible Study Justifying Works

[Jim Parker]

We do have to suffer loss of fellowship, but not loss of relationship.

That's like saying, "I have a flat tire but it's only flat on the bottom."

 

[dirtfarmer]

That's like saying, "I have a flat tire but it's only flat on the bottom."

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

A tire that is flat on the bottom is still a tire, and until the problem is fixed it will not hold air and cannot be used.

 

[Tony Hyman]

hello Tony Hyman, dirtfarmer here...

Who are
the evil doers, the wrong doers? The punishment is for breaking the law of the land, fleshly punishment, incarceration. If Christ has suffered for the sins of the world, paid the ransom, suffered the penalty "for missing the mark", not living by faith, are these those that are incarcerated in prisons, fined by the court of the land, and lost civil judgments?.....

Reading you loud and clear "dirtfarmer" this is Tango I for Tony .(L.O.L)I just coudn't resist that.Takes me right back back to my Old Cop days.
Anyway just kidding, no disrespect intended. Dirtfarmer it is interesting that you mention the phrase "for missing the mark".I don't mean to sound all Greeky and clever here, but lets focus on that phrase mentioned by you.According to 1 Peter 2:14 the N.I.V. uses the word "wrong".Strongs Hebrew and Greek Dictionary translate from the Greek word in that verse as (kakopoios - meaning a especially a criminal evil doer , malfactor)
Whether Peter is refering to only pagans or unbelievers only.Or does He mean Christians nominal or true believers who strive to live holy lives as contemplated in Rom 12:1 "...living sacrifices holy and pleasing to God".I think Peter means Christians and Non-Christians within the context of these particular verses.
Now getting getting back to "for missing the mark" .Although the word "sin" is not used in this verse.Ironically the Greek word for "sin" (cf Eph 2:1) is harmatia meaning offence , sin sinful.(Strongs Dictionary)There we are dead to our sins as we were before we were saved from death through Christ from Adam.But we still commit sins on a daily basis sometimes not even aware of it. Here we find the word harmartano which means -properly to miss the mark (not to share in the prize)...especially morally to sin...offend , sin trespass.(Strongs) Here John uses it for believers as I understand "6. claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness... 8 If we claim to be without sin (harmartano my insert) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"(I John 2:6, 8).

So to me Christians "miss the mark" on a daily bases if one sees it in the light of this explanation "Sin ...is the failure to be what we ought to be and could be..Is a man as good a husband as he might be...woman good a wife...good parents as we might have been...disciplined and trained our children as we ought....therfore sin is the failure to reach the goal and journey's end we ought to have reached....failure to make life what life was capable of becoming..When we understand what sin is , we are left in no doubt as to the universality of sin , and no possible doubt of our own sin."William Barkley Letters to the Galatians and Ephesians 111-112)So its not only hard core obvious robbers, thieves, conn artists but also Christians falling" short of the mark" God expects from each individual as He made them.Therefore there will be judgement /punisment (not share in the prize- harmartano).Edit.Thats why I believe we ask God not to succumb to daily "temptations of evil" Mt 6 :13 but to be shaped into Christ-likeness growing and gradually shaped into the well cut diamond analogy which is so nicely put in this thread.

 

[Jim Parker]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

A tire that is flat on the bottom is still a tire, and until the problem is fixed it will not hold air and cannot be used.

OK. You totally missed the point.

 

[Jim Parker]

"Sin ...is the failure to be what we ought to be and could be..Is a man as good a husband as he might be...woman good a wife...good parents as we might have been...disciplined and trained our children as we ought....therfore sin is the failure to reach the goal and journey's end we ought to have reached....failure to make life what life was capable of becoming..When we understand what sin is , we are left in no doubt as to the universality of sin , and no possible doubt of our own sin."William Barkley Letters to the Galatians and Ephesians 111-112)

According to Thayer’s Lexicon of the New Testament, in the New Testament, the word “hamartia” is always used to indicate “a bad action, evil deed….whether it occurs by omission or commission, in thought and feeling or in speech and action.”

just gettin' a bit Greekie

 

[Chopper]

Reading you loud and clear "dirtfarmer" this is Tango I for Tony .(L.O.L)I just coudn't resist that.Takes me right back back to my Old Cop days.
Anyway just kidding, no disrespect intended. Dirtfarmer it is interesting that you mention the phrase "for missing the mark".I don't mean to sound all Greeky and clever here, but lets focus on that phrase mentioned by you.According to 1 Peter 2:14 the N.I.V. uses the word "wrong".Strongs Hebrew and Greek Dictionary translate from the Greek word in that verse as (kakopoios - meaning a especially a criminal evil doer , malfactor)
Whether Peter is refering to only pagans or unbelievers only.Or does He mean Christians nominal or true believers who strive to live holy lives as contemplated in Rom 12:1 "...living sacrifices holy and pleasing to God".I think Peter means Christians and Non-Christians within the context of these particular verses.
Now getting getting back to "for missing the mark" .Although the word "sin" is not used in this verse.Ironically the Greek word for "sin" (cf Eph 2:1) is harmatia meaning offence , sin sinful.(Strongs Dictionary)There we are dead to our sins as we were before we were saved from death through Christ from Adam.But we still commit sins on a daily basis sometimes not even aware of it. Here we find the word harmartano which means -properly to miss the mark (not to share in the prize)...especially morally to sin...offend , sin trespass.(Strongs) Here John uses it for believers as I understand "6. claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness... 8 If we claim to be without sin (harmartano my insert) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"(I John 2:6, 8).

So to me Christians "miss the mark" on a daily bases if one sees it in the light of this explanation "Sin ...is the failure to be what we ought to be and could be..Is a man as good a husband as he might be...woman good a wife...good parents as we might have been...disciplined and trained our children as we ought....therfore sin is the failure to reach the goal and journey's end we ought to have reached....failure to make life what life was capable of becoming..When we understand what sin is , we are left in no doubt as to the universality of sin , and no possible doubt of our own sin."William Barkley Letters to the Galatians and Ephesians 111-112)So its not only hard core obvious robbers, thieves, conn artists but also Christians falling" short of the mark" God expects from each individual as He made them.Therefore there will be judgement /punisment (not share in the prize- harmartano).Edit.Thats why I believe we ask God not to succumb to daily "temptations of evil" Mt 6 :13 but to be shaped into Christ-likeness growing and gradually shaped into the well cut diamond analogy which is so nicely put in this thread.

Good remarks Officer Hyman. Here's a quote from John Gill. "What is the temptation to sin? It is always, in one way or another, the deception that something is more to be desired than God and His ways."....Actually, it boils down to which do I love the most, this sin or God!

 

[Tony Hyman]

Good remarks Officer Hyman. Here's a quote from John Gill. "What is the temptation to sin? It is always, in one way or another, the deception that something is more to be desired than God and His ways."....Actually, it boils down to which do I love the most, this sin or God!

Absolutely Chopper ! I don't think one can put it more simply than that.

 

[dirtfarmer]

OK. You totally missed the point.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

How so? A tire is a tire whether flat or full of air. If it is not inflated on the car, then it is not being used. If we are out of fellowship with God, will God use us for the purpose he has set, but the fellowship between Him and us is what is hindered. If no relationship has been established, we will not be used of him. Just as a tire can be on a rim but not installed on a car, is it being used for the purpose that it was made. If a relationship has been established, but fellowship has been broken, we are still a child of God. If relationship with God has not been established, we are not a child of God.

 

[Tony Hyman]

O

According to Thayer’s Lexicon of the New Testament, in the New Testament, the word “hamartia” is always used to indicate “a bad action, evil deed….whether it occurs by omission or commission, in thought and feeling or in speech and action.”

just gettin' a bit Greekie

Yes Jim, that's why it's so difficult I think , when we all have these little lower nature quirks eg jealousy, arrogance , lack of self control Gal 5:19.If one could just "think" before we say and do stupid things to those around us.Sometimes the damage is so great we can only hope and beg for their forgiveness , but the scars and damage remain , even though God has forgiven "Forgive us our sins for we also forgive everyone who sins against us."Lk 11:4.

 

[smaller]

Whatever any of us 'do' we do exactly like Paul did:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This fact effectively "negates" works for salvation.

All the while, we think we are not "sinning" evil is in fact present with us, in that reasoning, making us blind to the obvious problem.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Definition of death: to quit sinning immediately

 

[smaller]

Isaiah 59:
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

Did Jesus make Himself a "prey?" Uh huh. Look at what happened to Him. We tend to understand that Jesus brought us only Love. There is a reality on the other side of the coin. That His Innocent Death sealed the judgment of the wicked. Romans 8:3.