Law or Grace

[glorydaz]

I see a lot of misunderstanding about whether Christians are to keep the law or parts of the law while we're under grace. Some even believe we must obey the commandments to be saved. So what is the law and how does it fit in with grace?

God gave Moses 2 tablets of stone on Mount Sinai, which contained the "written law"... 10 commandments written by the finger of God Himself, and God also spoke to Moses the "oral law" consisting of 603 commandments to Moses. These were later written down and put in the side of the ark. All the law is called the Mosaic Law, as Jesus often referred to it... it totals 613 commandments. Those who observe and perpetuate the law today want to discard the 603 and live by only 10.

But Paul tells us Christ is the end of the law to every one that believes.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Believers are no longer under the law, but under grace.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The law was given by Moses (including the Ten), but grace came by Jesus Christ.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

But by trying to be keepers of the law, if we offend in one point, we're guilty of all.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Paul was against the idea that law-keeping could cause us to grow spiritually. The Galatians were putting themselves under the law in hopes of improving their walk by works. He admonished them...

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but He has redeemed us from the curse of the law. I'd like to go through some points in Galatians in my next post, but it's late and I'm going to bed. This is just to give you all something to chew on until then. I can already foresee a strong reaction from some, but I'll be ready to address that tomorrow. ;)

 

[veteran]

Well I hope you don't leave out for what purpose God's law is still established today per Paul's teaching in Galatians, because he covered that point too.

Further, God's law is not just something given to Israel for a certain time period. It has commandments, judgments, statutes, and ordinances. As written in Ephesians, it was the commandments in ordinances that our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross, specifically the blood ordinances, religious dogma, etc.

Many believers today who don't understand how much of God's law is still in effect today tend to want to throw it all away when looking at its difference compared to Christ's Grace. They misunderstand what Apostle Paul taught about it in Romans and Galatians, which are foundational Books of Christianity. Many also forget to see that God showed His Grace upon Israel first, by saving them out of the Egyptian captivity, prior to His giving them His law.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, then we fulfill the law. That means moral, social, and civil application. The first five commandments deal with our condition with our Heavenly Father. The last five commandments deal with how we treat each other in this world.

But if we treat our neighbor unfairly and unjustly, then what governs to make a recompense? God's law, for the law was made for the unrighteous, the sinner, not the righteous. This is why God's laws are applied against those who live by the flesh, and is still in effect today among the Christian nations.

 

[shad]

Well said veteran, Amen!

I will comeback with more about this absurd preaching of "your-works-don't-save-you". This preaching is misleading and washing down Jesus' messages a big time.

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[veteran]

Well said veteran, Amen!

I will comeback with more about this absurd preaching of "your-works-don't-save-you". This preaching is misleading and washing down Jesus' messages a big time.

.

Well, even though I recognize God's law as still existing today over the Christian nations, I do recognize there's a difference between God's law, works, and Christ's Grace. We are not saved by the law, because it was not designed to save, but only to point to The Saviour and His Salvation through Grace.

If we are in Christ, we should have works to back up our Faith. But it's not the works itself that saves us. It is by God's unmerited favor that we are saved, and that's what His Grace is. That's why it's important to recognize the principle of God's Grace manifested first upon Israel when He led them out of Egypt, and then gave them His laws later. His Grace, or unmerited favor, was always first.

That is also the lesson we are to understand with The Promise of Salvation by Faith first given through Abraham. For The Promise was given first, before any token of a covenant was made, and before the giving of God's law.

 

[shad]

There are a lot of misunderstandings about the law.

What Jesus abolished is ceremonial law. We dont have to go through all kinds of ritual to give guilt offerings when we sin.

Most of us believe that Jesus' nailed all laws at the cross and insist that we dont have to obey any law.

We have to remember Jesus says to obey two commandments: love the Lord and love your neighbor as your selves. Guess what, the ten commandments are summary of those two. And He also goes into all kinds of details how to keep them in the New testament.

Let's not wash down Jesus' messages with "you cannot save yourselves with works." All of Jesus' commandments in the gospels are works.

.

 

[Drew]

Well I hope you don't leave out for what purpose God's law is still established today per Paul's teaching in Galatians, because he covered that point too.

When Paul refers to "the Law", he almost always is referring to the Torah - the written Law of Moses. And Paul is really quite clear - this "Law" has been retired and is no longer in force. Jesus takes the same position as well.

Further, God's law is not just something given to Israel for a certain time period. It has commandments, judgments, statutes, and ordinances. As written in Ephesians, it was the commandments in ordinances that our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross, specifically the blood ordinances, religious dogma, etc.

I think you are reading in a qualification that is not there - Paul never restricts what has been "nailed to the cross" to some sub-set of the Law of Moses - it is all retired.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, then we fulfill the law.

This I agree with, but some qualification is needed. The written Law of Torah - including the 10 commandments has been retired - I see no scripturally faithful way to avoid such a conclusion. But Paul does indeed speak of a "Law" has not been abolished, as the Law of Moses has been, but is instead established. More about this later, perhaps.

 

[DarcyLu]

Glory already provided this verse and I will do so again:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?

There is and always has been a danger of once being saved to revert back to living under the law in the form of legalism, either by manipulation and or coercion as you must do this or else. This way of thinking nullifies Jesus living and working through us, as now it is He in us instead of us in the law. It is spiritual (Jesus) vs flesh (law).
It does not mean we live a life of lawlessness nor does it mean we are void of responsibilities, there are plenty of teachings in the NT how to present ourselves, live moral lives, be of good character. We have exchanged living under the law to a spiritual one. Can the law heal us, grow us in our faith, communicate to us, is it alive? Of course not, we now have the living ONE living in us, filling us with His life.

 

[glorydaz]

Well I hope you don't leave out for what purpose God's law is still established today per Paul's teaching in Galatians, because he covered that point too.

Further, God's law is not just something given to Israel for a certain time period. It has commandments, judgments, statutes, and ordinances. As written in Ephesians, it was the commandments in ordinances that our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross, specifically the blood ordinances, religious dogma, etc.

I don't plan on leaving anything out, Veteran, and I'm hoping you and others will help me get to all points. I'm glad to see you included the commandments in your list of what was nailed to the cross, because the law includes those.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Fulfilled means completed. Throughout the NT we see prophecies being fulfulled...such as this.

And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

And we see the same with every jot and tittle of the law.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Then we see Jesus taking one of the ten (said of them of old time), thou shalt not kill, and making it even harder for man to keep. Calling someone a "fool" putting man in danger of hell fire.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

It's certainly tempting for man to claim to keep the 10...but we are not told to keep the 10 but those as given by our Lord if we're to be keepers of the law. And, of course, failing in one point is to be guilty of all.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[glorydaz]

If we are in Christ, we should have works to back up our Faith. But it's not the works itself that saves us. It is by God's unmerited favor that we are saved, and that's what His Grace is.

Exactly the point I'm determined to get across.

Thank you, Veteran, for putting it so succinctly.

 

[shad]

Glory already provided this verse and I will do so again:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?

Glory quotes verses and takes them out of context.
The context of that passage is this:

Gal 2
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

"The law" that Paul is talking about are the Jewish customs and ceremonies and traditions. It's a complete contradiction to say that Paul meant for us to NOT obey God's commands regarding SIN. Read the verses in context.

 

[DarcyLu]

Glory already provided this verse and I will do so again:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?

Glory quotes verses and takes them out of context.
The context of that passage is this:

Gal 2
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

"The law" that Paul is talking about are the Jewish customs and ceremonies and traditions. It's a complete contradiction to say that Paul meant for us to NOT obey God's commands regarding SIN. Read the verses in context.

shad are you saying you live under the law?

 

[shad]

shad are you saying you live under the law?

I live under Jesus' law: "If you love me, keep my commandments". That's what you should too. Without being faithful to Jesus, there is no Salvation, period.

.

 

[glorydaz]

There is and always has been a danger of once being saved to revert back to living under the law in the form of legalism, either by manipulation and or coercion as you must do this or else. This way of thinking nullifies Jesus living and working through us, as now it is He in us instead of us in the law. It is spiritual (Jesus) vs flesh (law).
It does not mean we live a life of lawlessness nor does it mean we are void of responsibilities, there are plenty of teachings in the NT how to present ourselves, live moral lives, be of good character. We have exchanged living under the law to a spiritual one. Can the law heal us, grow us in our faith, communicate to us, is it alive? Of course not, we now have the living ONE living in us, filling us with His life.

Very well said, DarcyLu.

As we walk after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Israel followed after righteousness by keeping the law, but did not obtain. Keeping the law, therefore cannot bring righteousness.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Christ, the perfect man, put an end to the law for those who believe in Him.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Take note...it is not our righteousness, but His.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[shad]

As we walk after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Israel followed after righteousness by keeping the law, but did not obtain. Keeping the law, therefore cannot bring righteousness.
[quote="Romans 9:31":3smmug8g]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Christ, the perfect man, put an end to the law for those who believe in Him.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Take note...it is not our righteousness, but His.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[/quote:3smmug8g]

Jesus says "If you love me, keep my commandments". Without being faithful to Jesus, there is no Salvation, period.

 

[glorydaz]

When Paul refers to "the Law", he almost always is referring to the Torah - the written Law of Moses. And Paul is really quite clear - this "Law" has been retired and is no longer in force. Jesus takes the same position as well.

This I agree with, but some qualification is needed. The written Law of Torah - including the 10 commandments has been retired - I see no scripturally faithful way to avoid such a conclusion. But Paul does indeed speak of a "Law" has not been abolished, as the Law of Moses has been, but is instead established. More about this later, perhaps.

Now you speak of God's eternal law which has been there from the beginning, and, indeed, the 10 commandments were based on those. I'm sure you're right, we'll get into those as we go along.

The important thing, as you say, is that we keep the entire law as given to Moses in one unit and don't try to split it up saying we're left with a part we're to follow. Jesus fulfilled all the law as given to Moses.

 

[shad]

Now you speak of God's eternal law which has been there from the beginning, and, indeed, the 10 commandments were based on those. I'm sure you're right, we'll get into those as we go along.

The important thing, as you say, is that we keep the entire law as given to Moses in one unit and don't try to split it up saying we're left with a part we're to follow. Jesus fulfilled all the law as given to Moses.

Then why do you preach that works cannot save you? Keeping the ten commandments is work. You are preaching heresy. If you dont follow the ten commandments you are not be saved, period. It is necessary.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory quotes verses and takes them out of context.
The context of that passage is this:

"The law" that Paul is talking about are the Jewish customs and ceremonies and traditions. It's a complete contradiction to say that Paul meant for us to NOT obey God's commands regarding SIN. Read the verses in context.

No, Shad. The "law" Paul is talking about is the whole law...you point back to one jot and tittle, Paul is going much farther. You're frustrating the grace of God when you make such claims.

Paul speaks of the works of the law...he isn't speaking of circumcision only....else he would not say "works" plural.

"] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

A keeper of the law must obey in all points...if he fails in one, he is guilty of all.
No man is justified by the law in the sight of God..."it is evident"...the just shall live by faith.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[glorydaz]

Then why do you preach that works cannot save you? Keeping the ten commandments is work. You are preaching heresy. If you dont follow the ten commandments you are not be saved, period. It is necessary.

I preach it because the Word of God makes it abundantly clear.... works do NOT save us.

And stop accusing me of heresy...it's childish and you really should stop having little tantrums every time I post something you don't understand.

Your inability to understand a "first principle" does not make me a heretic, it makes you a man in need milk. We are saved by grace through faith. That is a basic principle on which all else if built. You can't add to that without changing the Gospel.

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

 

[shad]

The important thing, as you say, is that we keep the entire law as given to Moses in one unit and don't try to split it up saying we're left with a part we're to follow. Jesus fulfilled all the law as given to Moses.

What is your point? You cannot be saved if you are not obedient to Jesus' law.

.

 

[DarcyLu]

There is a difference between being under the law, still willing to live under what can not save you and manifesting through faith, works done through you by Jesus.
The OP question is Law or Grace? as i stated in my earlier post, we have responsiblities as Christians, or those who are abiding in Him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

this says much more than simply believing "in Him" it says "has not believed in the name", name is the nature of Him, believing Him, believing who He says He is, believing His promises, believing who He is and what He brings to you through faith in our salvation.

Works is the manifestation of the fruit of abiding in Him, allowing Him to work through us, to manifest through us, believing Him, those are the works we are responsible for.

i wanted to clarify my position and glory - you and i do disagree here, but we can agree, we are no longer under the law and have the freedom Christ brought to us to live a life progressively manifesting and conforming to His image! Praise Him for releasing us from the bondage the law gave and freeing us through His death and resurrection!