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[_ Old Earth _] Medical Schools and Evolution

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Asyncritus

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I wasn't too surprised, but rather very pleased to read the following, which confirms my opinion of the general uselessness of evolution theory in all of the practical biological sciences. Except, of course, to provide salaries for the 'evolutionary biologists'.

My own degree is in Agriculture, and I cannot recall the subject being mentioned in any of the courses where one would expect it to be.

2 of my children are medical doctors, and I can't recall seeing evolution mentioned in their textbooks.

Now I discover that the medical people have very little use for it either:
http://www.heacademy.ac.uk/assets/documents/subjects/bioscience/bioscience-education-4-3.pdf

A questionnaire survey was sent to course directors of all UK medical schools on
evolution in the curriculum. First year medical students completed a questionnaire
on their acceptance or rejection of evolution. Students completing an SSM on
Evolution in Health and Disease evaluated the course by questionnaire.

Only 37% of responding medical schools included evolution in the curriculum.

10%of medical students surveyed did not accept long-term evolution, though most
rejectors accepted that natural selection works within species.


Rejection of evolution was firmly linked to a religious belief in a creation account, not to any consideration of the evidence.

Rejection influenced attitudes to the intergenerational equity issue of drug resistance evolution.

Students taking the SSM on Evolution strongly appreciated its relevance to medicine.
It is recommended that evolutionary biologists should urgently work with medical
schools to develop courses in evolutionary medicine that will help clinicians in
training to appreciate the importance of evolutionary processes in medical practice.

I would be interested to know what 'evolutionary medicine' could possibly be, and what practical utility it could have.

More extensive courses in practical nutrition would be far more useful and sensible, given the amazing swing rounds that have occurred recently in medical opinion on Vitamin E, fats, salt intake, Vitamin C and other such 'taboo' nutrients.
 
It seems to me they want to protect their religion. Good point, a belief in common ancestry is of little use to the medical industry. They can see bacteria become resistant right before their eyes, they didn't need Darwin's theory to tell them that. However, Darwinists need that to sell their stories.
'Evolutionary medicine' is an oxymoron. If it evolves, then let it. If natural selection is capable of designing gears, clocks, and GPS why interfere with that?
Nobody tries to 'fix' a rock or mountain or lake, indeed its absurd to even think of those in terms of broken or repaired. Only designed things break down and need repaired. Anyone attempting to 'fix' a body contradicts a belief in evolution. Thanks for bringing this up Async!
 
I would be interested to know what 'evolutionary medicine' could possibly be, and what practical utility it could have.

Antibiotic protocols are designed in accordance with evolutionary theory to minimize the effects of natural selection in evolving antibiotic-resistant strains:

When the Most Potent Combination of Antibiotics Selects for the Greatest Bacterial Load: The Smile-Frown Transition

  • Published: Apr 23, 2013
  • DOI: 10.1371/journal.pbio.1001540
Abstract
Conventional wisdom holds that the best way to treat infection with antibiotics is to ‘hit early and hit hard’. A favoured strategy is to deploy two antibiotics that produce a stronger effect in combination than if either drug were used alone. But are such synergistic combinations necessarily optimal? We combine mathematical modelling, evolution experiments, whole genome sequencing and genetic manipulation of a resistance mechanism to demonstrate that deploying synergistic antibiotics can, in practice, be the worst strategy if bacterial clearance is not achieved after the first treatment phase. As treatment proceeds, it is only to be expected that the strength of antibiotic synergy will diminish as the frequency of drug-resistant bacteria increases. Indeed, antibiotic efficacy decays exponentially in our five-day evolution experiments. However, as the theory of competitive release predicts, drug-resistant bacteria replicate fastest when their drug-susceptible competitors are eliminated by overly-aggressive treatment. Here, synergy exerts such strong selection for resistance that an antagonism consistently emerges by day 1 and the initially most aggressive treatment produces the greatest bacterial load, a fortiori greater than if just one drug were given. Whole genome sequencing reveals that such rapid evolution is the result of the amplification of a genomic region containing four drug-resistance mechanisms, including the acrAB efflux operon. When this operon is deleted in genetically manipulated mutants and the evolution experiment repeated, antagonism fails to emerge in five days and antibiotic synergy is maintained for longer. We therefore conclude that unless super-inhibitory doses are achieved and maintained until the pathogen is successfully cleared, synergistic antibiotics can have the opposite effect to that intended by helping to increase pathogen load where, and when, the drugs are found at sub-inhibitory concentrations.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001540#abstract1

And then, there's this...

Polio vaccine is an old example but it is a good one.

  • The vaccine now used to immunize against the disease poliomyelitis is a live poliovirus that we eat.
  • This live virus does not give us the disease (except to about 1-2 in a million people vaccinated) because it is genetically weakened so that our body can defeat it.
  • This process of weakening is called attenuation, and it is an evolutionary process. The attenuated vaccine strains came from wild, virulent strains of poliovirus, but they were evolved by Albert Sabin to become attenuated. Essentially, he grew the viruses outside of humans, and as the viruses became adapted to those non-human conditions, they lost their ability to cause disease in people

  • http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/bull.html

Genetics. 2003 April; 163(4): 1237–1241.

PMCID: PMC1462515
Experimental prediction of the natural evolution of antibiotic resistance.
Miriam Barlow and Barry G Hall
Abstract
The TEM family of beta-lactamases has evolved to confer resistance to most of the beta-lactam antibiotics, but not to cefepime. To determine whether the TEM beta-lactamases have the potential to evolve cefepime resistance, we evolved the ancestral TEM allele, TEM-1, in vitro and selected for cefepime resistance. After four rounds of mutagenesis and selection for increased cefepime resistance each of eight independent populations reached a level equivalent to clinical resistance. All eight evolved alleles increased the level of cefepime resistance by a factor of at least 32, and the best allele improved by a factor of 512. Sequencing showed that alleles contained from two to six amino acid substitutions, many of which were shared among alleles, and that the best allele contained only three substitutions.


Sabin used evolutionary theory to provide a much more effective immunization. Millions of people's are living healthy, productive lives, because evolutionary theory showed how to make viruses evolve into less harm-ful strains which would still provide immunity against the more virulent strains. Moreover, evolutionary theory showed that if just a few people were vaccinated with this product, it could cause full-blown polio in the unvaccinated populations. Hence, the mass immunization efforts that controlled that hazard. Again, evolutionary theory showed the way.

Would you like to see some other examples?
 
Oh come on Barbarian.

The 'evolution' of resistance to antibiotics as an example of 'evolution in action' is the last pathetic proof of the impoverished nature of evolution theory.

Everybody knows, and knew from the time that antibiotics started to be used, that there were resistant strains. They did not EVOLVE. They were there already! So all this rubbish about 'evolution' taking place is just pure eyewash.

Is 'evolutionary medicine' going to be a whole course on the EXISTENCE of naturally antibiotic-immune strains? That'd be a very short course!!!

Got anything better? Like the evolution of a completely new species of bacteria?

OH YES, I remember poor old Lenski. Remember him? 50,000 generations of E coli
and not a single new species, yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

Just what are they going to teach these poor medical students? I can't imagine, but perhaps you may be able to tell us.
 
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Sabin used evolutionary theory to provide a much more effective immunization. Millions of people's are living healthy, productive lives, because evolutionary theory showed how to make viruses evolve into less harm-ful strains which would still provide immunity against the more virulent strains.

No he didn't. He used combinations of UV light, heat, phenolic treatment, passing through alternative hosts and all the standard well-known attenuation procedures to produce the weakened strains now available in the live vaccines. Here's a link to some of those procedures, if you're interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuated_vaccine

And, I may add, those were INTELLIGENTLY DIRECTED techniques, which were INTELLIGENTLY DEVISED, and INTELLIGENTLY APPLIED by people working in INTELLIGENTLY CONSTRUCTED hospitals and laboratories.

The sort of evolution (ie the production of new genera, families, phyla) we're discussing is decidedly not the same as what happened here, and it is a crime against scientific comprehension that the word 'evolution' is used so loosely and without discrimination.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oh come on Barbarian.

The 'evolution' of resistance to antibiotics as an example of 'evolution in action' is the last pathetic proof of the impoverished nature of evolution theory.

Never ceases to infuriate creationists, but there it is. The antibiotic protocols were designed according to evolutionary theory (which did predict the evolution of resistance) and they work.

Everybody knows, and knew from the time that antibiotics started to be used, that there were resistant strains.

Actually, not. Physicians widely overprescribed antibiotics and used them in ways that evolutionary theory shows to be favorable for evolution of resistance.

They did not EVOLVE. They were there already! So all this rubbish about 'evolution' taking place is just pure eyewash.
No he didn't. He used combinations of UV light, heat, phenolic treatment, passing through alternative hosts and all the standard well-known attenuation procedures to produce the weakened strains now available in the live vaccines. Here's a link to some of those procedures, if you're interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuated_vaccine

And, I may add, those were INTELLIGENTLY DIRECTED techniques, which were INTELLIGENTLY DEVISED, and INTELLIGENTLY APPLIED by people working in INTELLIGENTLY CONSTRUCTED hospitals and laboratories.

The sort of evolution (ie the production of new genera, families, phyla) we're discussing is decidedly not the same as what happened here, and it is a crime against scientific comprehension that the word 'evolution' is used so loosely and without discrimination.

A quick look at the literature shows you're wrong. First thing up:
PLoS One. 2013 Aug 12;8(8):e71001. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0071001. eCollection 2013.
Clonal dissemination, emergence of mutator lineages and antibiotic resistance evolution in Pseudomonas aeruginosa cystic fibrosis chronic lung infection.
López-Causapé C, Rojo-Molinero E, Mulet X, Cabot G, Moyà B, Figuerola J, Togores B, Pérez JL, Oliver A.
Source
Servicio de Microbiología y Unidad de Investigación, Hospital Universitario Son Espases, Palma de Mallorca, Spain.

Is 'evolutionary medicine' going to be a whole course on the EXISTENCE of naturally immune strains?

In this case, it's regarding an antibiotic not found in nature, and the resistance the result of new mutations, not previously seen in bacteria. Surprise.

Got anything better?

Yep. Barry Hall, using evolutionary theory, is finding ways to anticipate new mutations for antibiotic resistance. And it's working. He's able to predict in many ways, how future mutations will produce resistance, making it easier to design drugs and protocols to head them off.

Like the evolution of a completely new species of bacteria?

You've been misled about that. Antibiotic resistance can evolve without producing a new species.


Just what are they going to teach these poor medical students?

That for one thing, "take all of this prescription" may actually be harmful and lead to the evolution of new antibiotic resistance. For another, slamming an infection with a cocktail of several powerful antibiotics is likely also to produce new antibiotic resistances. Findings on the way new forms of resistance evolve is above their job description; that is an issue for scientists and chemists working on new antibiotics, but of course, the information would be useful to doctors using existing antibiotics.

can't imagine, but perhaps you may be able to tell us.

That never changes, does it?
 
Sabin used evolutionary theory to provide a much more effective immunization. Millions of people's are living healthy, productive lives, because evolutionary theory showed how to make viruses evolve into less harmful strains which would still provide immunity against the more virulent strains.

No he didn't.

Yep, he did. Evolutionary theory predicts that viruses, becoming adapted to a secondary host, will become less virulent for the orginal host.

The text-book example of the evolution of virulence is the attenuation of myxoma virus (MYXV) following its introduction as a biological control into the European rabbit populations of Australia and Europe in the 1950s. However, the key work on this topic, most notably by Frank Fenner and his colleagues, occurred before the availability of genome sequence data. The evolutionary genetic basis to the major changes in virulence in both the Australian and European epidemics is therefore largely unknown. We provide, for the first time, key details on the genome-wide changes that underpin this landmark example of pathogen emergence and virulence evolution. By sequencing and comparing MYXV genomes, including the original strains released in the 1950s, we show that (i) MYXV evolved rapidly in both Australia and Europe, producing one of the highest rates of evolutionary change ever recorded for a DNA virus, (ii) that changes in virulence were caused by mutations in multiple genes, often involving losses of gene function due to insertions and deletions, and that (iii) strains of the same virulence were defined by different mutations, such that both attenuated and virulent MYXV strains are produced by a variety genetic pathways, and generating convergent evolution for phenotype but not genotype.
Evolutionary History and Attenuation of Myxoma Virus on Two Continents PLoS Pathog. 2012 October; 8(10)
 
Sabin used evolutionary theory to provide a much more effective immunization. Millions of people's are living healthy, productive lives, because evolutionary theory showed how to make viruses evolve into less harmful strains which would still provide immunity against the more virulent strains.



Yep, he did. Evolutionary theory predicts that viruses, becoming adapted to a secondary host, will become less virulent for the orginal host.

The text-book example of the evolution of virulence is the attenuation of myxoma virus (MYXV) following its introduction as a biological control into the European rabbit populations of Australia and Europe in the 1950s. However, the key work on this topic, most notably by Frank Fenner and his colleagues, occurred before the availability of genome sequence data. The evolutionary genetic basis to the major changes in virulence in both the Australian and European epidemics is therefore largely unknown. We provide, for the first time, key details on the genome-wide changes that underpin this landmark example of pathogen emergence and virulence evolution. By sequencing and comparing MYXV genomes, including the original strains released in the 1950s, we show that (i) MYXV evolved rapidly in both Australia and Europe, producing one of the highest rates of evolutionary change ever recorded for a DNA virus, (ii) that changes in virulence were caused by mutations in multiple genes, often involving losses of gene function due to insertions and deletions, and that (iii) strains of the same virulence were defined by different mutations, such that both attenuated and virulent MYXV strains are produced by a variety genetic pathways, and generating convergent evolution for phenotype but not genotype.
Evolutionary History and Attenuation of Myxoma Virus on Two Continents PLoS Pathog. 2012 October; 8(10)

As I said, this is a chronic misuse of the word 'evolution'. The sort of 'evolution' I am discussing (and you may not be) is the production of new genera, families and higher taxons.

All of the above assumes that the new varieties sprang from nowhere. They didn't - they were derived from viruses already in existence. You note, no new species 'evolved' - merely new variants. Doesn't help your case at all, really.

Mutations, as you may know are forms of variations in existing cells, which then multiply.

I've challenged you fruitlessly before. Show that a new genus/ higher taxon evolved somewhere, and then extrapolate and show how that rate of evolution could produce the Cambrian Explosion.
 
Never ceases to infuriate creationists, but there it is. The antibiotic protocols were designed according to evolutionary theory (which did predict the evolution of resistance) and they work.

Actually, not. Physicians widely overprescribed antibiotics and used them in ways that evolutionary theory shows to be favorable for evolution of resistance.

If evolutionary theory was all that good, they should have known about resistance developing BEFORE it happened. As you say, physicians widely overprescribed antibiotics - because they had no idea that resistance was on the way. Evolutionary biologists? Bah.

Why did they keep their mouths shut - if their theory could predict this? Answer, the couldn't. There was, and is, a lot of stable door shutting that went on! Hindsight is always 20/20

And furthermore, you don't need evolutionary theory to tell you that bacteria were resistant, and that the resistant ones would survive. Common sense did that, and common sense is not a product of evolution! It isn't even a feature of it.

A quick look at the literature shows you're wrong. First thing up:
PLoS One. 2013 Aug 12;8(8):e71001. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0071001. eCollection 2013.
Clonal dissemination, emergence of mutator lineages and antibiotic resistance evolution in Pseudomonas aeruginosa cystic fibrosis chronic lung infection.
López-Causapé C, Rojo-Molinero E, Mulet X, Cabot G, Moyà B, Figuerola J, Togores B, Pérez JL, Oliver A.
Source
Servicio de Microbiología y Unidad de Investigación, Hospital Universitario Son Espases, Palma de Mallorca, Spain.
What does this have to do with Sabin and Salk? Irrelevant.
In this case, it's regarding an antibiotic not found in nature, and the resistance the result of new mutations, not previously seen in bacteria. Surprise.

I'm not clear how this supports evolution theory. How do they know it was not previously seen in nature, say 1000 years ago?

Yep. Barry Hall, using evolutionary theory, is finding ways to anticipate new mutations for antibiotic resistance. And it's working. He's able to predict in many ways, how future mutations will produce resistance, making it easier to design drugs and protocols to head them off.

And who is Barry Hall? You know him?

Looking the name up on google finds a footballer, landowner, boxer, weightlifter and a few other things. Which one of them did you have in mind?

Let's see some evidence of your claim about his using evolutionary theory to predict resistance. And then show how a moderately well-informed creationist would not be able to make the same predictions.

You've been misled about that. Antibiotic resistance can evolve without producing a new species.

Sad for your case. Producing a new species is exactly what we're looking for.

That for one thing, "take all of this prescription" may actually be harmful and lead to the evolution of new antibiotic resistance. For another, slamming an infection with a cocktail of several powerful antibiotics is likely also to produce new antibiotic resistances. Findings on the way new forms of resistance evolve is above their job description; that is an issue for scientists and chemists working on new antibiotics, but of course, the information would be useful to doctors using existing antibiotics.

You still haven't shown how evolutionary theory figures in all this.

Hit bacteria with antibiotic. Resistant ones survive and breed, hey presto, we have a new resistant strain. New antibiotic needed and found. cycle repeats itself.

Where's the grand evolutionary theory in that?

So back to the original question. What are they going to teach in this 'evolutionary biology' course that I couldn't teach them in 10 minutes flat?
 
Sabin used evolutionary theory to provide a much more effective immunization. Millions of people's are living healthy, productive lives, because evolutionary theory showed how to make viruses evolve into less harmful strains which would still provide immunity against the more virulent strains.



Yep, he did. Evolutionary theory predicts that viruses, becoming adapted to a secondary host, will become less virulent for the orginal host.

The text-book example of the evolution of virulence is the attenuation of myxoma virus (MYXV) following its introduction as a biological control into the European rabbit populations of Australia and Europe in the 1950s. However, the key work on this topic, most notably by Frank Fenner and his colleagues, occurred before the availability of genome sequence data. The evolutionary genetic basis to the major changes in virulence in both the Australian and European epidemics is therefore largely unknown. We provide, for the first time, key details on the genome-wide changes that underpin this landmark example of pathogen emergence and virulence evolution. By sequencing and comparing MYXV genomes, including the original strains released in the 1950s, we show that (i) MYXV evolved rapidly in both Australia and Europe, producing one of the highest rates of evolutionary change ever recorded for a DNA virus, (ii) that changes in virulence were caused by mutations in multiple genes, often involving losses of gene function due to insertions and deletions, and that (iii) strains of the same virulence were defined by different mutations, such that both attenuated and virulent MYXV strains are produced by a variety genetic pathways, and generating convergent evolution for phenotype but not genotype.
Evolutionary History and Attenuation of Myxoma Virus on Two Continents PLoS Pathog. 2012 October; 8(10)

..
As I said, this is a chronic misuse of the word 'evolution'.

If you think so, you don't know what the word means. Would you like me to show you again?

The sort of 'evolution' I am discussing (and you may not be) is the production of new genera, families and higher taxons.

We'll spend a few sentences on your bunny trail, and then back to the subject:
Most creationists now admit the evolution of new genera and families is a fact. Notice that the Institute for Creation Research admits that much, endorsing the work of John Woodmorappe, who says these new taxa appeared by hyperevolution in a few thousand years after "the Flood."

But the point, of course, is that evolutionary theory predicted the way to attenuate viruses to make them useful as vaccines.

I've challenged you fruitlessly before.

Doesn't have to be that way. You could spend a little time learning about biology, and you've be much, much more effective.

Show that a new genus/ higher taxon evolved somewhere, and then extrapolate and show how that rate of evolution could produce the Cambrian Explosion.

Sure. Pick anything in the Cambrian, and then show me that it couldn't have evolved in that time. But just to keep things cleaned up, you forgot to answer my question. Show us any two major groups said to be evolutionarily connected, without a transitional between them. Then we'll examine your evidence for whatever you think couldn't have evolved.

Let's see what you've got. Since you abandoned the issue of vaccines and evolution, we'll assume that you realize that they depend on evolutionary theory.
 
If evolutionary theory was all that good, they should have known about resistance developing BEFORE it happened. As you say, physicians widely overprescribed antibiotics - because they had no idea that resistance was on the way. Evolutionary biologists? Bah.

Why did they keep their mouths shut - if their theory could predict this? Answer, the couldn't. There was, and is, a lot of stable door shutting that went on! Hindsight is always 20/20.

Good point Async!
 
If evolutionary theory was all that good, they should have known about resistance developing BEFORE it happened. As you say, physicians widely overprescribed antibiotics - because they had no idea that resistance was on the way. Evolutionary biologists? Bah.

It wasn't kept quiet. Both Alexander Flemming, and Almoth Wright had predicted this, based on evolutionary theory, long before it happened.

Why did they keep their mouths shut - if their theory could predict this? Answer, the couldn't. There was, and is, a lot of stable door shutting that went on! Hindsight is always 20/20.

Fleming also discovered very early that bacteria developed antibiotic resistance whenever too little penicillin was used or when it was used for too short a period. Almroth Wright had predicted antibiotic resistance even before it was noticed during experiments. Fleming cautioned about the use of penicillin in his many speeches around the world. He cautioned not to use penicillin unless there was a properly diagnosed reason for it to be used, and that if it were used, never to use too little, or for too short a period, since these are the circumstances under which bacterial resistance to antibiotics develops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fleming

Vaccine writes:
Good point Async!

Would have been. Another beautiful creationist "just-so" story, wrecked by an ugly little fact.
 
It wasn't kept quiet. Both Alexander Flemming, and Almoth Wright had predicted this, based on evolutionary theory, long before it happened.



Fleming also discovered very early that bacteria developed antibiotic resistance whenever too little penicillin was used or when it was used for too short a period. Almroth Wright had predicted antibiotic resistance even before it was noticed during experiments. Fleming cautioned about the use of penicillin in his many speeches around the world. He cautioned not to use penicillin unless there was a properly diagnosed reason for it to be used, and that if it were used, never to use too little, or for too short a period, since these are the circumstances under which bacterial resistance to antibiotics develops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fleming

Vaccine writes:


Would have been. Another beautiful creationist "just-so" story, wrecked by an ugly little fact.
Of course, Fleming predicated his point on observed phenomena in his petri dishes, and spoke against underdosing, which might permit resistant varieties to survive and breed.

The antibiotic did not kill ALL the bacteria, and being an intelligent man, he issued the warnings.
By this method and by the method of serial dilution I tested the sensitivity
of many of the common microbes which infect us and found exactly what is
illustrated in Fig. 2 - that many of the common human pathogens were
strongly inhibited while many others were unaffected.

From his Nobel lecture. I am happy to note that he does not mention the word 'evolution' once in the whole text, though I may have missed it.

Sorry about your little point. Pure optimistic imagination....
 
I am equally happy to note these remarks on and by Ernst Chain, his co-Nobel prizewinner:

Ernst Chain and his colleague Howard Florey are credited with "one of the greatest discoveries in medical science ever made."1 Together with Sir Alexander Fleming, they were awarded the 1945 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine. What is less well known, however, is that this preeminent biochemist openly opposed Darwinism on the basis of his scientific research....

In 1938, Chain stumbled across Alexander Fleming's 1929 paper on penicillin in the British Journal of Experimental Pathology, which he brought to the attention of his colleague Florey.7 During their research, Chain isolated and purified penicillin. It was largely this work that earned him his numerous honors and awards, including a fellow of the Royal Society and numerous honorary degrees,8 the Pasteur Medal, the Paul Ehrlich Centenary Prize, the Berzelius Medal, and a knighthood.9

11 In 1940 he also discovered penicillinase, an enzyme that is used by bacteria to inactivate penicillin, negating its effectiveness.12 Chain knew that bacteria had become resistant to the drug and had already started working on the problem at this early date.

One of Chain's lifelong professional concerns was the validity of Darwin's theory of evolution, which he concluded was a "very feeble attempt" to explain the origin of species based on assumptions so flimsy, "mainly of morphological and anatomical nature," that "it can hardly be called a theory."13

This mechanistic concept of the phenomena of life in its infinite varieties of manifestations which purports to ascribe the origin and development of all living species, animals, plants and micro-organisms, to the haphazard blind interplay of the forces of nature in the pursuance of one aim only, namely, that for the living systems to survive, is a typical product of the naive 19th century euphoric attitude to the potentialities of science which spread the belief that there were no secrets of nature which could not be solved by the scientific approach given only sufficient time.14

A major reason why he rejected evolution was because he concluded that the postulate that biological development and survival of the fittest was "entirely a consequence of chance mutations" was a "hypothesis based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts."15

These classic evolutionary theories are a gross oversimplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts, and it amazes me that they were swallowed so uncritically and readily, and for such a long time, by so many scientists without a murmur of protest.
Chain, Social Responsibility and the Scientist, 25.

Chain concluded that he "would rather believe in fairies than in such wild speculation" as Darwinism.13 Chain's eldest son, Benjamin, added: "There was no doubt that he did not like the theory of evolution by natural selection--he disliked theories...especially when they assumed the form of dogma. He also felt that evolution was not really a part of science, since it was, for the most part, not amenable to experimentation--and he was, and is, by no means alone in this view."
Clark, The Life of Ernst Chain, 147-148.

http://www.icr.org/article/3767/
 
In 1942 Nobel Laureate Ernst Chain wrote explicitly that his discovery (with Florey and Fleming) of penicillin, and the development of bacterial resistance to that antibiotic, owed nothing to Darwin’s and Alfred Wallace’s evolutionary theories. The same can be said about a variety of other 20th century discoveries: that of the structure of the double helix; the characterization of the ribosome; the mapping of genomes; research on medications and drug reactions; improvements in food production and sanitation; and various new surgeries.

Forbes, Feb. 23, “The dangers of overselling evolution”
 
Barbarian,
We've been through all this years ago.
The mechanism to become resistant to penicillin is already within the bacteria. That mechanism was discovered back in 2008. Since then more information on how the mechanism works has been revealed. As yet research continues to fully understand the chemical mechanism to develop an inhibitor or drug to disrupt that mechanism without adverse effects to the organism infected. One could say the bacteria "evolved" when the mechanism was triggered by the introduction of a stimulus, penicillin. But it's not "evolution" in the sense of something added through mutation. Again, the bacteria already possessed the ability to overcome a threat (presence of MurT/gatD) to the building of or cross linking of the peptidoglycan that protects the bacteria from that threat.
Nor should we confuse natural selection, what works survives and multiplies through that survival, with some mutant mechanism associated with the way "evolution" has come to be known. In other words, something wasn't there, it mutated and now is.
 
Forbes, Feb 23

Philip S. Skell is emeritus Evan Pugh professor of chemistry at Penn State University and a member of the National Academy of Sciences.

Last week, University of Chicago biologist Jerry Coyne criticized Forbes (See “Why Evolution Is True”) for including views skeptical of Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution in its forum on the 200th anniversary of his birth. As a member of the National Academy of Sciences, I beg to differ with Professor Coyne.

I don’t think science has anything to fear from a free exchange of ideas between thoughtful proponents of different views. Moreover, there are a number of us in the scientific community who, while we appreciate Darwin’s contributions, think that the rhetorical approach of scientists such as Coyne unnecessarily polarizes public discussions and–even more seriously–overstates both the evidence for Darwin’s theory of historical biology and the benefits of Darwin’s theory to the actual practice of experimental science.

Coyne seems to believe the major importance of biological science is its speculations about matters which cannot be observed, tested and verified, such as origin of life, speciation, the essences of our fossilized ancestors, the ultimate causes of their changes, etc.

Experimental biology has dramatically increased our understanding of the intricate workings within living organisms that account for their survival, showing how they continue to function despite the myriad assaults on them from their environments.

These advances in knowledge are attributable to the development of new methodologies and instruments, unimaginable in the preceding centuries, applied to the investigation of living organisms. Crucial to all fruitful experiments in biology is their design, for which Darwin’s and Wallace’s principles apparently provide no guidance.

Contrary to the beliefs of Professor Coyne and some other defenders of Darwin, these advances are not due to studies of an organism’s ancestors that are recovered from fossil deposits. Those rare artifacts–which have been preserved as fossils–are impressions in stones which, even when examined with the heroic efforts of paleontologists, cannot reveal the details that made these amazing living organisms function.

To conflate contemporary scientific studies of existing organisms with those of the paleontologists serves mainly to misguide the public and teachers of the young.

An examination of the papers in the National Academy of Sciences’ premiere journal, The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), as well as many other journals and the Nobel awards for biological discoveries, supports the crucial distinction I am making.

Examining the major advances in biological knowledge, one fails to find any real connection between biological history and the experimental designs that have produced today’s cornucopia of knowledge of how the great variety of living organisms perform their functions. It is our knowledge of how these organisms actually operate, not speculations about how they may have arisen millions of years ago, that is essential to doctors, veterinarians, farmers and other practitioners of biological science.

It is widely accepted that the growth of science and technology in the West, which accounts for the remarkable advances we enjoy today in medicine, agriculture, travel, communications, etc., coincided with the separation, several centuries ago, of the experimental sciences from the dominance of the other important fields of philosophy, metaphysics, theology and history.

Yet many popularizers of Darwin’s theory now claim that without the study of ancient biological history, our students will not be prepared to engage in the great variety of modern experimental activities expected of them.

The public should view with profound alarm this unnecessary and misguided reintroduction of speculative historical, philosophical and religious ideas into the realms of experimental science.

It is more crucial to consider history in the fields of astrophysics and geology than in biology. For example, the electromagnetic radiations arriving at our detectors inform us of the ongoing events that occurred billions of years ago in distant parts of our universe that have been traveling for all this time to reach us. And the rock formations of concern to geologists have resided largely undisturbed since their formations.

But fossils fail to inform us of the nature of our ancient antecedents–because they have been transformed into stones that give us only a minuscule, often misleading impression of their former essences and thus are largely irrelevant to modern biology’s experimentations with living organisms.

For instance, we cannot rely upon ruminations about the fossil record to lead us to a prediction of the evolution of the ambient flu virus so that we can prepare the vaccine today for next year’s more virulent strain. That would be like depending upon our knowledge of ancient Hittite economics to understand 21st-century economics.


In 1942, Nobel Laureate Ernst Chain wrote that his discovery of penicillin (with Howard Florey and Alexander Fleming) and the development of bacterial resistance to that antibiotic owed nothing to Darwin’s and Alfred Russel Wallace’s evolutionary theories.

The same can be said about a variety of other 20th-century findings: the discovery of the structure of the double helix; the characterization of the ribosome; the mapping of genomes; research on medications and drug reactions; improvements in food production and sanitation; new surgeries; and other developments.


Additionally, I have queried biologists working in areas where one might have thought the Darwinian paradigm could guide research, such as the emergence of resistance to antibiotics and pesticides.
Here, as elsewhere, I learned that evolutionary theory provides no guidance when it comes to choosing the experimental designs. Rather, after the breakthrough discoveries, it is brought in as a narrative gloss.

The essence of the theory of evolution is the hypothesis that historical diversity is the consequence of natural selection acting on variations. Regardless of the verity it holds for explaining biohistory, it offers no help to the experimenter–who is concerned, for example, with the goal of finding or synthesizing a new antibiotic, or how it can disable a disease-producing organism, what dosages are required and which individuals will not tolerate it. Studying biohistory is, at best, an entertaining distraction from the goals of a working biologist.

It is noteworthy that Darwin’s and Wallace’s theories of evolution have been enormously aggrandized since the 1850s. Through the writings of neo-Darwinian biologists, they have subsumed many of the biological experimental discoveries of the 20th century. This is so despite the fact that those discoveries were neither predicted nor heuristically guided by evolutionary theory.

The overselling of the theory of evolution, because of the incorporation of these later discoveries, may have done a grave disservice both to those two 19th-century scientists and to modern biology.

The difference between the advances of 20th-century chemical and biological knowledge and the contentious atmosphere that currently prevails in biology alone is worth noting.

Chemists have depended largely on geological sources, from which they have isolated the hundred or so elements on the periodic table and subsequently devised a great variety of schemes for synthesizing millions of new complex arrangements of these elements, giving to the public medicines, fertilizers, plastics, etc., of great utility.

Biologists, on the other hand, have recognized that the natural sources they study are living organisms, each of which is a unique individual, each of which consists of extraordinary complex molecular combinations in configurations that lead to coherent functioning and reproduction. There are no two identical genomes in the biocosm. Now, modern biologists conduct experimental studies that have begun to reveal details of how living organisms function and reproduce.

It is unseemly and scientifically unfruitful that a major focus in biology should have turned into a war–between those who hold that the history of those unique organisms is purely a matter of chance aggregation from the inorganic world and those who hold that the aggregation must have been designed for a purpose.

It is surely not a matter that must or can be settled within the provenance of experimental biology. Above all, declaiming orthodoxy to either of those propositions promotes incivility and draws energy and resources away from the real goal–advances in experimental biological science. These studies, if not derailed, indicate that further advances of great utility can be expected during the 21st century.

Philip S. Skell is emeritus Evan Pugh professor of chemistry at Penn State University and a member of the National Academy of Sciences.
 
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We've been through all this years ago.

Unfortunately, a lot of people still don't get it.

The mechanism to become resistant to penicillin is already within the bacteria.

In the sense that all living things have the mechanism to evolve. This what Flemming was warning about, contrary to Async's denials. He not only warned about the evolution of resistance, he frequently and publicly warned about it.

That mechanism was discovered back in 2008. Since then more information on how the mechanism works has been revealed. As yet research continues to fully understand the chemical mechanism to develop an inhibitor or drug to disrupt that mechanism without adverse effects to the organism infected. One could say the bacteria "evolved" when the mechanism was triggered by the introduction of a stimulus, penicillin. But it's not "evolution" in the sense of something added through mutation.

Turns out, many forms of resistance to antibiotics have been demonstrated, some of them never seen in wild bacteria, to antibiotics that did not exist before humans synthesized them. Would you like some examples?

Nor should we confuse natural selection, what works survives and multiplies through that survival, with some mutant mechanism associated with the way "evolution" has come to be known. In other words, something wasn't there, it mutated and now is.

Dr. Hall has identified a number of such cases, as have other researchers. Would you like to learn about those?

And Async, isn't it remarkable that we get a dissenting view of evolution and biology from someone lacking any training in biology?

That alone should be an important clue for you. Because science doesn't discriminate against creationists, it's possible for a creationist to be a scientist. But we don't see any world-class biologists who are creationists, because evolution is so critical to biology that a biologist without an understanding of it, is impaired. Chemists can be ignorant of it in their work, as Skell demonstrates.
 
Wild bacteria?

"evolution of resistance"
Or more accurately "mechanics of resistance".
We too possess mechanisms of resistance that come into play with all sorts of infection. We have learned to artificially trigger these mechanisms by vaccination. The resulting resistance isn't evolution but a triggered response. The mechanisms were already in place.
In the same manner bacteria can themselves become "vaccinated" by the exposure to a threat. Again, a triggered response. It is that trigger that is being researched since it's discovery in '08.
 
Unfortunately, a lot of people still don't get it.

Unfortunately for your case, they do.
In the sense that all living things have the mechanism to evolve. This what Flemming was warning about, contrary to Async's denials. He not only warned about the evolution of resistance, he frequently and publicly warned about it.

As I said, he did not use the word 'evolution' in the Nobel acceptance lecture. Why do you think that he didn't?
Turns out, many forms of resistance to antibiotics have been demonstrated, some of them never seen in wild bacteria, to antibiotics that did not exist before humans synthesized them. Would you like some examples?

I'm not sure what your point is, here.

Clearly those potential resistances PRE-EXISTED, but were not potentiated because the antibiotics hadn't hit them yet.

But this is another of your red herrings. The main thrust of my 2 previous posts is to show that Chain, Skell, and many others have no use for evolution theory in their practical work. Contrary to your assertions.
Dr. Hall has identified a number of such cases, as have other researchers. Would you like to learn about those?

No - they're basically irrelevant to the issue of whether evolution theory is useful in the design of biological experiments and practical outcomes. It simply isn't. Chain and Skell both said so perfectly clearly.
And Async, isn't it remarkable that we get a dissenting view of evolution and biology from someone lacking any training in biology?

Edison went to school for 3 months. Einstein was a patents clerk in Berne. So where do you go fromthere?

That alone should be an important clue for you. Because science doesn't discriminate against creationists, it's possible for a creationist to be a scientist. But we don't see any world-class biologists who are creationists, because evolution is so critical to biology that a biologist without an understanding of it, is impaired. Chemists can be ignorant of it in their work, as Skell demonstrates.

We don't?

Francis Collins
Bill Phillips
Brian Heap FRS
John Houghton FRS
Ghillean Prance FRS
Bob White FRS
Conway Morris FRS
Sam Berry
Denis Alexander

all believe in God, and are presumably creationists of one sort or another.

So no go, for that claim. But aren't you being just a bit parochial?
 

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