Mutual stumbling blocks: Protestantism and Catholicism

[cyberjosh]

I do not Catholic-bash, so if you want to do that take it to another thread, but rather I would like to acknowledge the mere reality of our (Protestant's) differences with Catholicism and discover what stumbling blocks we may unfortunately set up for each other. If we truely are the body there must be mutual edification, not mutual stumbling blocks.

I must say first of all from our perspective: cannot Catholics see that some statues of Mary may be a stumbling block to Protestants? Perhaps there are some Protestants who do not mind pictures or statues that resemble saints. But is not public publication of the fame of Mary perhaps not a stumbling block to those who do not necessarily agree with or even understand such veneration? Paul said (paraphrasing) if my drinking causes my brother to stumble may I never drink again! Some things which aren't necessities can (and often should) be sacrificed for the sake of love. Would you not be concerned about scandalizing the consciences of some of your Protestant brethren who may not undertsand or who might disagree with your level of veneration when it may simply not be necessary? What if the Catholic Church stopped publically publishing such statues and merely allowed for more personal observance (if you so wish to do so - in private) while keeping them free of the public Church where others may desire to go?

Rabbit Trail: And yes I have gone into a Catholic Church to pray before (with a Catholic friend of mine who went in the afternoon). There is nothing unholy about being in a Catholic Church ( I just think some have what I would call "distractions"). Nonetheless... [/Rabbit Trail]

I will stop to let you answer those questions above, and will now proceed to the Protestant side to be fair.

What in your opinion (if any) would you Catholics say might be a stumbling block for you to accept Protestant ways? We should atleast be courteous enough to hear such concerns from you as well. I don't know of any of your thoughts on this as of now, so I cannot write much. I will wait for your input on this issue.

But in the end we must both ask this: what is necessary and what can be sacrificed for the sake of love and mutual edification? And also in light of that ponder on this: Should not Church be filled with the essentials, while we should really fill in our personal observances on our own time?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[MrVersatile48]

Good post, Josh

"Contend for the faith once for all deliveered to the saints"

I happily went, for 2 years, to an after-church RC-led charismatic fellowship, while there was no Mary-olatry or prayer to 'saints'

I left when a priest intro'd a weekend 'reconciliation' conference by an idolatrous talk on 'our proper relationship to Mary' - whose script I later accidentally stumbled on, while channel hopping, on the apostate RC EWTN channel

I didn't interupt, or leave during his talk, so as not to embarass RC friends with whom I'd long worked - 3 days a week for @ 2 years - in a soup kitchen for the homeless

But, as I said to them at the lunch break, our 'proper relationship' to Mary is brother & sister in Christ: it is blasphemous to pray to her, sing hymns to her & claim she is 'co-redemptrix'

Pope John Paul 2's funeral was a tragic reminder that he did more than any other pope to spread Mary-olatry & prayers to 'saints', etc - & Herr Joe confirmed his erroneous teachings

The cry 'santo subito' was a tragic reminder that the RC 'faith' consigns even such a hero to a non-existent Purgatory: will Herr Joe now demolish it, as he did the equally non-existent 'Limbo'?

The Bible is very clear that we are to pray to God the Father in the name of God the Son (Jesus), in the power of God the Holy Spirit indwelling us

It is all who love Jesus who are temples of the Holy Spirit, not buildings & not exclusively Mary: pagan goddesses were called 'habitation of God' & came to take seniority over their 'divine' sons - (as Isis/Osiris)

'Queen of Heaven' is a blasphemous occult title specifically forbidden in the Bible

There is much more, as can be seen by comparing many RC dogma with Man's Maker's Manual: the Bible, not man's, is the infallible Word of God, yet RCs call 'sola scriptura' a 'heresy', preferring the lies of popes & cardinals, etc

Many threads @ RC dogma are humourously linked from here:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24079

Ian

 

[Guest]

I do not Catholic-bash, so if you want to do that take it to another thread, but rather I would like to acknowledge the mere reality of our (Protestant's) differences with Catholicism and discover what stumbling blocks we may unfortunately set up for each other. If we truely are the body there must be mutual edification, not mutual stumbling blocks.

I must say first of all from our perspective: cannot Catholics see that some statues of Mary may be a stumbling block to Protestants? Perhaps there are some Protestants who do not mind pictures or statues that resemble saints. But is not public publication of the fame of Mary perhaps not a stumbling block to those who do not necessarily agree with or even understand such veneration? Paul said (paraphrasing) if my drinking causes my brother to stumble may I never drink again! Some things which aren't necessities can (and often should) be sacrificed for the sake of love. Would you not be concerned about scandalizing the consciences of some of your Protestant brethren who may not undertsand or who might disagree with your level of veneration when it may simply not be necessary? What if the Catholic Church stopped publically publishing such statues and merely allowed for more personal observance (if you so wish to do so - in private) while keeping them free of the public Church where others may desire to go?

Rabbit Trail: And yes I have gone into a Catholic Church to pray before (with a Catholic friend of mine who went in the afternoon). There is nothing unholy about being in a Catholic Church ( I just think some have what I would call "distractions"). Nonetheless... [/Rabbit Trail]

I will stop to let you answer those questions above, and will now proceed to the Protestant side to be fair.

What in your opinion (if any) would you Catholics say might be a stumbling block for you to accept Protestant ways? We should atleast be courteous enough to hear such concerns from you as well. I don't know of any of your thoughts on this as of now, so I cannot write much. I will wait for your input on this issue.

But in the end we must both ask this: what is necessary and what can be sacrificed for the sake of love and mutual edification? And also in light of that ponder on this: Should not Church be filled with the essentials, while we should really fill in our personal observances on our own time?

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh - should we not all -Catholics and Protestants alike - seek to live out the Christian faith consistently in line with the Word of God?

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh - should we not all -Catholics and Protestants alike - seek to live out the Christian faith consistently in line with the Word of God?

Absolutely. Thus why I seek reconcilliation and a coming back to the essentials of the Word.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Good post, Josh

"Contend for the faith once for all deliveered to the saints"

I happily went, for 2 years, to an after-church RC-led charismatic fellowship, while there was no Mary-olatry or prayer to 'saints'

I left when a priest intro'd a weekend 'reconciliation' conference by an idolatrous talk on 'our proper relationship to Mary' - whose script I later accidentally stumbled on, while channel hopping, on the apostate RC EWTN channel

I didn't interupt, or leave during his talk, so as not to embarass RC friends with whom I'd long worked - 3 days a week for @ 2 years - in a soup kitchen for the homeless

But, as I said to them at the lunch break, our 'proper relationship' to Mary is brother & sister in Christ: it is blasphemous to pray to her, sing hymns to her & claim she is 'co-redemptrix'

Pope John Paul 2's funeral was a tragic reminder that he did more than any other pope to spread Mary-olatry & prayers to 'saints', etc - & Herr Joe confirmed his erroneous teachings

The cry 'santo subito' was a tragic reminder that the RC 'faith' consigns even such a hero to a non-existent Purgatory: will Herr Joe now demolish it, as he did the equally non-existent 'Limbo'?

The Bible is very clear that we are to pray to God the Father in the name of God the Son (Jesus), in the power of God the Holy Spirit indwelling us

It is all who love Jesus who are temples of the Holy Spirit, not buildings & not exclusively Mary: pagan goddesses were called 'habitation of God' & came to take seniority over their 'divine' sons - (as Isis/Osiris)

'Queen of Heaven' is a blasphemous occult title specifically forbidden in the Bible

There is much more, as can be seen by comparing many RC dogma with Man's Maker's Manual: the Bible, not man's, is the infallible Word of God, yet RCs call 'sola scriptura' a 'heresy', preferring the lies of popes & cardinals, etc

Many threads @ RC dogma are humourously linked from here:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24079

Ian

Hey Mr Versatile, You made a post I can understand! : Good post thanks for sharing.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Guest]

Absolutely. Thus why I seek reconcilliation and a coming back to the essentials of the Word.

God Bless,

~Josh

What do you propose to be those essentials?

 

[Heidi]

I do not Catholic-bash, so if you want to do that take it to another thread, but rather I would like to acknowledge the mere reality of our (Protestant's) differences with Catholicism and discover what stumbling blocks we may unfortunately set up for each other. If we truely are the body there must be mutual edification, not mutual stumbling blocks.

I must say first of all from our perspective: cannot Catholics see that some statues of Mary may be a stumbling block to Protestants? Perhaps there are some Protestants who do not mind pictures or statues that resemble saints. But is not public publication of the fame of Mary perhaps not a stumbling block to those who do not necessarily agree with or even understand such veneration? Paul said (paraphrasing) if my drinking causes my brother to stumble may I never drink again! Some things which aren't necessities can (and often should) be sacrificed for the sake of love. Would you not be concerned about scandalizing the consciences of some of your Protestant brethren who may not undertsand or who might disagree with your level of veneration when it may simply not be necessary? What if the Catholic Church stopped publically publishing such statues and merely allowed for more personal observance (if you so wish to do so - in private) while keeping them free of the public Church where others may desire to go?

Rabbit Trail: And yes I have gone into a Catholic Church to pray before (with a Catholic friend of mine who went in the afternoon). There is nothing unholy about being in a Catholic Church ( I just think some have what I would call "distractions"). Nonetheless... [/Rabbit Trail]

I will stop to let you answer those questions above, and will now proceed to the Protestant side to be fair.

What in your opinion (if any) would you Catholics say might be a stumbling block for you to accept Protestant ways? We should atleast be courteous enough to hear such concerns from you as well. I don't know of any of your thoughts on this as of now, so I cannot write much. I will wait for your input on this issue.

But in the end we must both ask this: what is necessary and what can be sacrificed for the sake of love and mutual edification? And also in light of that ponder on this: Should not Church be filled with the essentials, while we should really fill in our personal observances on our own time?

God Bless,

~Josh

The issue isn't the catholics vs. the protestants, it's biblical teachings vs. non-biblical teachings. So if the catholics wouldn't see this as people against people, but instead, truth against fiction, then they might be more interested in what God's word says raher than worrying about their own pride being hurt.

Ephesians 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

 

[lovely]

I am interested to see what the Protestant stumbling blocks are, and if someone outside of the Protestant beliefs can be used by God to cause us to examine ourselves, and our own beliefs.

Josh, I think you make a good point, and I see that you are desiring to restore in a spirit of gentleness.
Galatians 6 1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

I sometimes get very tired of the threads about Catholicism, but I also understand that there are some serious errors that their religious leaders are promoting...of which they will bear the greatest guilt (1 Corinthians 3)...and many of our brothers and sisters need to be lifted out of such error because they are maybe just babes. It is a struggle to leave when one has been raised in the culture of Catholicism. There is even a fear, especially when family gets involved, of how much it may hurt them, or anger them, for one to leave their church. Many here have testimony of being lifted out of it by God's grace, and by the restoring of a brother, and have had to turn their backs on their families to a degree, or at least be contrary to them.

Consider the following verses, idolatry is a lust of the flesh. I am not saying that the Catholics are the only ones guilty of idolatry, because we all must tear down idols in our lives constantly, but they are guilty of practicing it willingly, and continuing in it against God's Word. It is a teaching in their church that is not simply causing a stumblingblock, but leading people down the path of unrighteousness.

Galatians 5:15-26
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

The Galatians 6:1 verse warns us not to also be tempted when we seek to restore. I think satan sometimes will tempt us, or attack us, with the very thing we are encouraging others to turn their backs on. I believe that is why we should be spiritual (not carnal) and meek when addressing such things. It is sometimes hard for us to be called out by God, as Abraham was, and not continue in the security of the masses.

I think there is a sense of urgency, though, because of the verses that indicate that those who willfully practice idolatry are not only outside the church, but also outside of God's city when Christ returns.

Revelation 22:11-21
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

I know that this topic has been discussed, I am not sure how many threads are about this subject right now, but I do pray that we can say these things with a motivation of love, and to help those who know Christ out of the error that the Catholic and Orthodox churches promote. The Lord bless you.

 

[cyberjosh]

What do you propose to be those essentials?

Look at my thread here: Essential vs. Non-essential doctrines. I agree with what Javier (jgredline) said in there also.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Oh, and Lovely:

Thank you for your lovely post! I enjoyed it.

~Josh

 

[Guest]

Look at my thread here: Essential vs. Non-essential doctrines. I agree with what Javier (jgredline) said in there also.

God Bless,

~Josh

Sorry to be blunt, but it would appear using jg's list - catholics and protestants would only agree on half of them.

 

[cyberjosh]

Sorry to be blunt, but it would appear using jg's list - catholics and protestants would only agree on half of them.

I assume that by that you mean Catholics wouldn't agree with some of the ones on JG's list. Either way though I can see this getting off topic quick. If you wish to debate that line of thought please post it in that thread (it needs to be revived anyways - it's burried on the 3rd page of the forums).

P.S. Note to all: I still await a Catholic's reply so we can discuss this from their perspective. Only then do I think will we really get this topic underway.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

I assume that by that you mean Catholics wouldn't agree with some of the ones on JG's list. Either way though I can see this getting of topic quick. If you wish to debate that line of thought please post it in that thread (it needs to be revived anyways - its burried on the 3rd page of the forums).

P.S. Note to all: I still await a Catholics reply so we can discussthis from their perspective. Only then do I think will we really get this topic underway.

My question is "who is JG and why is his list authoritative"? Some people will think that baptism is necessary, others do not. You aren't even going to be able to compile a LIST without disagreement on what is key among those who believe in private interpretation of the Bible. I appreciate your attempts, Josh, but it seems you will first have to speak with your fellow Protestants and get a list together that you can all agree with before we can proceed.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

I am interested to see what the Protestant stumbling blocks are, and if someone outside of the Protestant beliefs can be used by God to cause us to examine ourselves, and our own beliefs.

I too would be interested to hear what Catholics think a Protestant stumbling block would be. That is why I eagerly await someone who is Catholic to answer. I guess we'll see soon enough.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Joe!

I'm glad you showed up. I would be delighted to hear your reply to my OP (as I was just telling Lovely).

Now, as for this:

My question is "who is JG and why is his list authoritative"? Some people will think that baptism is necessary, others do not. You aren't even going to be able to compile a LIST without disagreement on what is key among those who believe in private interpretation of the Bible. I appreciate your attempts, Josh, but it seems you will first have to speak with your fellow Protestants and get a list together that you can all agree with before we can proceed.

PLEASE, take the advice I just gave alonevoice and post that objection in the link I provided to the other thread. And for the record I never said jg was authoritive (I just said I happened to agree) nor was it my intent to even discuss this in here - alonevoice brought it up so I gave him a link so his inquiry would not side track the OP. I hope we can now proceed with the OP topic.

If we can deal with simple/straight-forward matter that I mentioned as a Catholic stumbling block to Protestants above, and you in-turn post your thoughts on what you think the Protestant Church in general (please do not single out personal beliefs of individuals here - as I did not do that for Catholics) presents as a stumbling block then I think we may actually have some edifying discussion. Both I and Lovely are eager to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Joe!


PLEASE, take the advice I just gave alonevoice and post that objection in the link I provided to the other thread. And for the record I never said jg was authoritive (I just said I happened to agree) nor was it my intent to even discuss this in here - alonevoice brought it up so I gave him a link so his inquiry would not side track the OP. I hope we can now proceed with the OP topic.

I have no objections personally. I am just making a logical suggestion. WHO is going to be the "spokesman" for Protestantism so that we can determine which doctrines are considered key and which are considered secondary? Which ones are necessary for a Christian to know and believe? Before a Catholic comes here and discusses your OP, you will have to come to some agreement amongst yourselves on what you believe! Otherwise, how will we discuss what is necessary and what is not so necessary?

If we can deal with simple/straight-forward matter that I mentioned as a Catholic stumbling block to Protestants above, and you in-turn post your thoughts on what you think the Protestant Church in general (please do not single out personal beliefs of individuals here - as I did not do that for Catholics) presents as a stumbling block then I think we may actually have some edifying discussion. Both I and Lovely are eager to hear your thoughts.

Josh, when I am dealing with people who believe in individual and personal bible interpretation, when I am dealing with people who ALL believe that they are personally led by the Spirit to ascertain exactly what God means by the Scriptures (but do not agree!), how am I going to NOT "single out personal beliefs of individuals here"?

I am sorry if I cannot be more helpful, but I need some sort of reference of what IS Protestant beliefs. (besides the obvious one, that all Catholics are wrong!)

Regards

 

[lovely]

Hi Joe,

Josh, when I am dealing with people who believe in individual and personal bible interpretation, when I am dealing with people who ALL believe that they are personally led by the Spirit to ascertain exactly what God means by the Scriptures (but do not agree!), how am I going to NOT "single out personal beliefs of individuals here"?

I am sorry if I cannot be more helpful, but I need some sort of reference of what IS Protestant beliefs. (besides the obvious one, that all Catholics are wrong!)

Joe, would you say that this is your main problem with protestants? (I don't care for the term to be honest) This idea that all say the Holy Spirit is leading them, but yet they do not agree...and certainly could never have just one spokesperson? I think some unbelievers have a difficult time with this too. I wonder sometimes what we (protestants...I prefer believers) can do about being more corporate in our worship...in Spirit and in Truth. I think the idea of Sola Scriptura tries to remedy that to a degree, but again you have interpretation issues come up. I wonder if this doesn't aid in sharpening the believer, though...that's another conversation.

To be honest, though, I see a similar problem with Catholic and Orthodox believers. I know friends who are Catholic, who don't believe a lot of what the church teaches, and some who even refer to themselves as non-practicing (?). I think that many practice a sort of custom made Catholicism too, even though they identify with the church in a general way.

I had to giggle at your last comment, though you may have said it more out of exasperation rather than humor. The thing is, all protestants probably don't disagree with the Catholic church, and some probably Catholics do. :-D

The Lord bless you.

 

[cyberjosh]

I'll stick with Lovely for the time being, because you gave me a really broad question to try to narrow down. I can't give you any one spokes person for Protestants. Why not just list some things at random in general that may irk you or that you may dislike about Protestantism (or maybe one branch of Protestantism in which you disliked its practical implementation of things - surely you've observed something).

However lets try not to list doctrines but rather practicalities or external observations (such as my observation of the Catholic's Churches statues of Mary) or the way something is carried out in Church service. But if there is anything that would outwardly strike you if you went into a Protestant Church (have you ever been in a Protestant Church & heard a service?) why don't you list it here. At any rate I hope at the very least you can answer my question directed to Catholics in my OP about a possible stumbling block to us Protestants. Actually, would you mind answering that first before you get to listing any possible Protestant stumbling blocks? You can put both into one big post for all I care but it would the ball rolling since I've already given you something to work with in my OP to answer.

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Joe, would you say that this is your main problem with protestants? (I don't care for the term to be honest) This idea that all say the Holy Spirit is leading them, but yet they do not agree...and certainly could never have just one spokesperson?

My "problem" as you say, is one of logic, I guess. It is not really a problem, because I have found that many people of the various Protestant denominations are excellent Christians, walking in love. They are no doubt reflections of Christ continuing to reach out to others. It is more an intellectual issue, one of logic. And one of them, as you say, is the claim that they are individually led by the Spirit, which makes them infallible in their minds when it comes to Scripture interpretation.

This is a self-defeating idea (just as Sola Scriptura is, but that is another story), proven wrong all the time. Solo and Destiny will argue about some issue, and both people are led by the Spirit to interpret the Scriptures without error. How can this be? When I read the Bible, I see that God has gifted the COMMUNITY with the Spirit, not the individual VERSUS the community. That, in essence, is the logical problem I see in Protestantism. Not that it is totally defunct, of course. Not that the Spirit does not come to people open to the Spirit. But the intellectual idea that the Spirit leads individuals AGAINST what the Church teaches is rather odd and AGAINST the Scriptures. It reminds me of what Jesus said:

And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. Mark 3:24

I think some unbelievers have a difficult time with this too. I wonder sometimes what we (protestants...I prefer believers) can do about being more corporate in our worship...in Spirit and in Truth. I think the idea of Sola Scriptura tries to remedy that to a degree, but again you have interpretation issues come up. I wonder if this doesn't aid in sharpening the believer, though...that's another conversation.

I appreciate your honesty. Too many people are tripping over themselves to cover up the problems found in their own systems. At any rate, this cannot be what Jesus wished for when He prayed that "all be one".

To be honest, though, I see a similar problem with Catholic and Orthodox believers. I know friends who are Catholic, who don't believe a lot of what the church teaches, and some who even refer to themselves as non-practicing (?).

Absolutely correct. We call them "cafeteria Catholics". Trust me, they are a frustrating group. There is a "catholic" here, according to him, who occasionally posts making wild statements about "I am Catholic, but I don't believe that Mary is immaculate" or whatever. However, there is a difference between the relatively monolithic TEACHINGS of the Church as a Body, and the individual BELIEFS of Catholics who are not living their faith.

Catholicism is a voluntary organization. No one is forced to be Catholic. We have a body of teachings that claim to be from the Apostles that we are to believe. Do we have to believe? YES, if we are to remain in this organization! I find it distressing that some "catholics" flout their supposed independence from the CHURCH, big brother so and so, when what they are doing is forgetting that one KEY element of our faith - that Christ established a Church and promised to be with it and guide it. If a person believes this, they SHOULD follow and obey ALL of its dogmatic teachings! Common sense would dictate that. Unfortunately, many catholics forget what the word even means (it means "according to the totality"). The word "Catholic" suggests that we believe ALL of God's revelation, not just bits and pieces that we find interesting, convenient, or logical.

Thus, the Church teaches unity in doctrine. (One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic refering to the Church - and the Oneness, unity, holds pride of place) Those who are not following Catholic teaching are not following Catholic practice. There seems to be a disconnect with those who pick and choose, and yet claim to be Catholic. Catholicism is not a democratic society, but is a Body with Christ as the Head.

I had to giggle at your last comment, though you may have said it more out of exasperation rather than humor. The thing is, all protestants probably don't disagree with the Catholic church, and some probably Catholics do. :-D

Yes, I guess the last 2 months have been a never-ending barrage, so, relatively speaking, it seems all of Protestantism is taking their shots, but that is an overexaggeration. I have actually had to place several people on my "ignore" list because there posts were so offensive and I felt the desire to lash out at them - thus, my spirituality was suffering.

I find it interesting that even when I provide Scriptures to show my case, it is rejected out of hand - naturally, because the "spirit" told them that "Cath-o-licks are just wrong. Everyone KNOWS that!!!" It hasn't sunk in yet that people can read the Bible in different ways. However, some Protestants have been very helpful in trying to strike a central position and build up some peace, rather than being desparate to tear down other Christians.

God bless you, too.

 

[jgredline]

Catholicism is a voluntary organization. No one is forced to be Catholic. We have a body of teachings that claim to be from the Apostles that we are to believe. Do we have to believe? YES, if we are to remain in this organization! I find it distressing that some "catholics" flout their supposed independence from the CHURCH, big brother so and so, when what they are doing is forgetting that one KEY element of our faith - that Christ established a Church and promised to be with it and guide it. If a person believes this, they SHOULD follow and obey ALL of its dogmatic teachings! Common sense would dictate that. Unfortunately, many catholics forget what the word even means (it means "according to the totality"). The word "Catholic" suggests that we believe ALL of God's revelation, not just bits and pieces that we find interesting, convenient, or logical.

Perhaps these independent Catholics are in the small percentile of those whom are saved and the Holy Spirit has revealed himself to them....

The scriptures are clear that the natural man does not understand the the things of God....Think about it and about it for a while....