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[GodsGrace]

Lol. You're reminding me of a story where they wanted to test an interpretation software and sent the phrase "The flesh is weak, but the spirit is strong" through several languages and it came back "The meat is bad, but the wine is good."

Sounds like when people try to translate Italian to English or V V using google.

It's a blast!
"she hangs the clothes".
"Appicha i panni" --- like to hang a person !

(stende i panni is correct).

 

[Anto9us2]

Ephesians 4:9
I think

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 4:9
I think

Ephesians 4:9
9(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

I believe the above is referring to Hades in Luke 16.
Jesus "filled" all things....He did what He came to do:
Open the gates of heaven.

Can we be sure what "the lower parts of the earth" means?
I've always learned that Jesus could not have ever entered hell.

 

[Anto9us2]

But "hell" back then was both good and bad souls, I think 'spirits in prison' are those in Abe' s BOSOM, and Jesus preaches "let's go!"

Never went to Tartarus/Torments/bad side of Hades

Whether Luke 16 is a parable or true story, I trow not...

Yes, beggar Lazarus i s named - in some tradition somewhere, the rich man is named also - Divas

 

[Anto9us2]

Lower parts of the earth means HAY -YULL.

What else would it be? Carlsbad Caverns?

 

[GodsGrace]

Lower parts of the earth means HAY -YULL.

What else would it be? Carlsbad Caverns?

LOL
It could mean Hades,,,as you've stated above.
Hades INCLUDED hell,,,but those Jesus freed were indeed those in Abraham's Bossom.

Gosh, Jolly Gee
Do we agree again?

(it's OK with me if you don't)

 

[GodsGrace]

But "hell" back then was both good and bad souls, I think 'spirits in prison' are those in Abe' s BOSOM, and Jesus preaches "let's go!"

Never went to Tartarus/Torments/bad side of Hades

Whether Luke 16 is a parable or true story, I trow not...

Yes, beggar Lazarus i s named - in some tradition somewhere, the rich man is named also - Divas

You know,,,hell was not translated correctly.
The only hell in the N.T. is in Peter...
2 Peter 2:4 meaning "tartarus".

What has always confused me is why the second judgement is necessary (Great White Thrown).

 

[GodsGrace]

Good night Anto9us2
Tomorrow....

 

[Anto9us2]

We agree

 

[Anto9us2]

Good night, wondering.
Hasta Manana

 

[jasonc]

LOL
It could mean Hades,,,as you've stated above.
Hades INCLUDED hell,,,but those Jesus freed were indeed those in Abraham's Bossom.

Gosh, Jolly Gee
Do we agree again?

(it's OK with me if you don't)

There are actually Hebrew words for the lowest points in sheol.its in job .

 

[GodsGrace]

There are actually Hebrew words for the lowest points in sheol.its in job .

Honestly Jason, I don't think we have enough revelation in the O.T. to know exactly what sheoul is or Gehenna....

I do believe this became clearer in the N.T.

 

[OzSpen]

Honestly Jason, I don't think we have enough revelation in the O.T. to know exactly what sheoul is or Gehenna....

I do believe this became clearer in the N.T.

wondering,

I've attempted to deal with some of the OT material in this brief article:
Torment in Old Testament hell? The meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I've attempted to deal with some of the OT material in this brief article:
Torment in Old Testament hell? The meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament

Oz

Hi Oz,

Thanks for the link to the article!
It was very informative.

Although there is progressive revelation in the bible and by the time of the N.T. much more was known about the place of the dead....it surely seems that in the O.T. some believed that the dead were just dead and some believed they were alive somehow.

Here is an excerpt from the article for those interested. I underlined the last sentence because it clarifies the condition of those in sheoul:

However, the following examples of the use of Sheol use figurative language to explain the conditions there. These include:

1. Sheol has “gates” to enter and “bars” to keep one in (e.g. Job 17:16; Isa. 38:10). Thus, by use of this figurative language, Sheol is described as a realm from which there is no way to escape.
2. Sheol is described as a shadowy place, a place of darkness (Job 10:21-22; Ps 143:3).
3. Sheol is regarded as being “down”, “beneath the earth”, in “the lower parts of the earth” (Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech are designed to tell us that Sheol has another existence – it is not part of this world that we live in. But there is another existence that has a different dimension. It is not sending the dead into non-existence or to be annihilated.
4. It is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed.
5. There are indications that there could be different sections in Sheol with language such as “the lowest part” and “the highest part” (Deut 32:22).
6. What are the conditions for a person who goes to Sheol? At death a person becomes a rephaim, i.e. a ghost, shade, disembodied spirit, according to the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries of the OT (see Job 26:5; Ps 88:10; Prov 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa 14:9; 26:14, 19). Instead of saying that human beings pass into non-existence at death, the OT states that a person becomes a disembodied spirit. Keil & Delitzsch in their OT commentary define rephaim as “those who are bodiless in the state after death” (Vol 4 on Job, p. 52).
7. Those in Sheol converse with each other and can even make moral judgments on the lifestyle of those who arrive (Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21). So, they are conscious beings when in Sheol.
8. Those in Sheol do not have knowledge of what is happening for those who are still alive on earth (Ps 6:5; Eccles 9:10, etc.)
9. Some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following:

a. God’s anger (Deut 32:22). Here, Moses states of the wicked that “a fire is kindled by my anger and it burns to the depths of Sheol” (ESV).
b. Distress and anguish (Ps 116:3);
c. There is writhing with pain; they are trembling (Job 26:5). Here the Hebrew word, chool, means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth to a child.
From the OT revelation, we know that the righteous and the wicked went to Sheol at death (Gen. 37:5), but the OT believers did not have a clear understanding of what to expect in Sheol. That was left for the progressive revelation of the NT to reveal more for us. Because of this principle of progressive revelation, the OT believers did not have the information that was needed to approach death with peace and joy (see Heb. 2:14-15).

Not once does Sheol in the OT mean non-existence or annihilation.

source: https://truthchallenge.one/blog/201...estament-hell-the-meaning-of-sheol-in-the-ot/

 

[jasonc]

Honestly Jason, I don't think we have enough revelation in the O.T. to know exactly what sheoul is or Gehenna....

I do believe this became clearer in the N.T.

You,do know gehenna,is a Greek,word for gin himmon

Its also in judaism

 

[GodsGrace]

You,do know gehenna,is a Greek,word for gin himmon

Its also in judaism

I know that Gehenna is a place near Jerusalem used for burning stuff.
Garbage and the like.

 

[jasonc]

I know that Gehenna is a place near Jerusalem used for burning stuff.
Garbage and the like.

There view of gehenna is the same as ours if you look at the chassidic Jewish view

 

[OzSpen]

You,do know gehenna,is a Greek,word for gin himmon

Its also in judaism

Of course I know that. I'm a NT Greek teacher.

That's not the issue. Because Gehenna was a burning rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem, it was used as a picture of the final destiny of the damned, death and Hades. It is not a place of non-existence. It's a place of conscious torment according to the biblical revelation.

When the Lord affirmed that God will “destroy” both body and soul in Gehenna (Mt. 10:28), he employed the word apollumi (used about 92 times in the New Testament). It is translated by such terms as “destroy,” “perish,” “loss,” and “lost.” The term does not suggest the sense of annihilation.​

​

When the prodigal son was in the far country, he was “lost” (apololos), i.e., estranged from the blessings of his home, but he was not annihilated. Jesus affirmed that he came to save that which stands lost (apololos). The perfect tense describes a present condition which has resulted from previous activity. The Lord did not come to save folks who were in a state of non-existence!​

​

“In every instance where the word apollumi is found in the New Testament, something other than annihilation is being described” (Morey, 90).​

See also William V Crockett’s article, ‘Wrath that endures forever’ (1991).

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Of course I know that. I'm a NT Greek teacher.

That's not the issue. Because Gehenna was a burning rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem, it was used as a picture of the final destiny of the damned, death and Hades. It is not a place of non-existence. It's a place of conscious torment according to the biblical revelation.

When the Lord affirmed that God will “destroy” both body and soul in Gehenna (Mt. 10:28), he employed the word apollumi (used about 92 times in the New Testament). It is translated by such terms as “destroy,” “perish,” “loss,” and “lost.” The term does not suggest the sense of annihilation.​

​

When the prodigal son was in the far country, he was “lost” (apololos), i.e., estranged from the blessings of his home, but he was not annihilated. Jesus affirmed that he came to save that which stands lost (apololos). The perfect tense describes a present condition which has resulted from previous activity. The Lord did not come to save folks who were in a state of non-existence!​

​

“In every instance where the word apollumi is found in the New Testament, something other than annihilation is being described” (Morey, 90).​

See also William V Crockett’s article, ‘Wrath that endures forever’ (1991).

Oz

I am not one doesnt believe in eternal damnation .in,judausm the view which I mention is a place of sorrow ,torment ,heat etc.

 

[OzSpen]

I am not one doesnt believe in eternal damnation .in,judausm the view which I mention is a place of sorrow ,torment ,heat etc.

So are the damned, in Judaism, experiencing conscious sorrow. torment, heat, etc?