Oh wow! All apolegeticians, assemble and look at this!

[cyberjosh]

If ever we needed Apolgetics in order to give a reason for the hope that is within us and to refute doctrinal error it is for sites like this made by sincere heretics who were once professed Christians! Worse, this person is still in line with half of God's word: he converted to Judaism. This man has given one of the longest "contradictions" lists I've ever seen, but unlike atheists "contradictions" lists he holds the OT to be the true word of God and tries to expose the NT as a fraud. He even gives a disheartening (because according to his own description he was a hungry Bible student like myself and others I know) testimony of how much he enjoyed hearing the Bible preached and going to Church, etc. But then he got caught up in unbelief.

It may take us a long time to go through each item on the list but it is important to understand how the NT is relevant to the OT. This guy does point out some difficult things such as attributes of Christ being quoted from Psalms that talk of the same person sinning, but (for example) this can be refuted by realizing that the whole Psalm does not apply to Christ and that some passages have dual fulfillements (one in King David and one ultimately in King Jesus). But look at the admittedly very good questions this guy asks.

Please take the time to refute some of these important questions.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Some of the questions are particularly stinging:

* * * Why is it that all of the prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled are all things that are of no practical advantage to anyone, and do nothing to improve the quality of anyone's life, while all of the prophecies that he did NOT yet fulfill are all things that will be of tremendous benefit to every individual on the planet, and all of mankind as a whole? (For example, how does a virgin birth that happened 2000 years ago, or Jesus' being thirsty and being offered vinegar, or being born in Bethlehem, or being killed with a robber, or riding on a donkey, etc... help me out at all? How do any of these "fulfillments" solve a single problem in my life, or anyone's? Yet, on the other hand, when there is world peace, and all the evil people are gone, and all the sick are healed, etc... now THERE are some messianic prophecies I can use!!! ) * * *

Wow. I understand where he is coming from but talk about disregarding signs of soverignty in Jesus' life and rather asking for selfish fulfillment when Christ said instead that we should take up our cross and follow him.

* * Why are we commanded NOWHERE in the Jewish scriptures to believe in the messiah when he comes, if our salvation depends on it? * *

He may be right that it is never specifically commanded of the one called "Messiah" but Jesus is also much more than just the Messiah. He was also the Suffering Servant of Isaiah and the Promised Prophet of the Law of Moses, in sucession to Moses himself. And of the Prophet God said that if we do not do the things which he commands us to do in Yahweh's name, He (Yahweh) will require it of us. So as the ordained and anointed prophet Jesus most certainly was given authority and it was commanded, even at the beginning of the giving of the law, ahead of time that we should obey what he tells us.

~Josh

 

[Drew]

The person who created the site asks:

When does the new covenant of Jer. 31:31 come into effect? If it was 2,000 years ago, why hasn't the first 3/4 of verse 34 happened yet?

Here is the 3/4 of verse 34

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD.

Obviously, he thinks that verse 34 means that all Jews would have recognized and embraced the Messiah. Since that did not happen in respect to Jesus, he argues that the prediction of verse 34 has not come true.

I submit that the answer is that the "they" in verse is not "national Israel" but rather "spiritual Israel". That may seem like a question-begging dodge, but please bear with me.

Consider Romans 3:21-31:

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Now consider the question: Do these verses mean that we Christians, Jews, and Gentile alike all now discover that we are to be members of the fleshly famility of Abraham? If this question is at least considered as a possibility as to what Paul is writing about in Romans 4, we can answer as follows (in the word of NT Wright):

Verses 2-8: no, since "works of Torah" are clearly not involved as demarcating Abraham (or for that matter David) as god's covenant people. Verses 9-15: no, for Abraham was declared to be in the covenant when uncircumcized after all, Torah was not involved in the process, and could not have been, since it would nullify the promises by calling down wrath.

Verses 16-22, whose thesis, the real thrust of the chapter, is stated emphatically and cryptically in verse 16: "therefore by faith, so that according to grace, so that the promise might be valid for all the family, not only 'those of the Torah' but also those by the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all". We have not found Abraham to be our father "according to the flesh", but rather "according to grace".

This might be a little light on details but I believe the overall argument is that Paul would argue that the "they" of Jeremiah 31:34 is not "the fleshly family of Israel" - national Israel - at all. If this position is sustained, then the objection is dealt with.

 

[cyberjosh]

This might be a little light on details but I believe the overall argument is that Paul would argue that the "they" of Jeremiah 31:34 is not "the fleshly family of Israel" - national Israel - at all. If this position is sustained, then the objection is dealt with.

That's true but that hasn't been fulfilled for us either, else we wouldn't be on this forum attempting to discuss doctrinal matters because we would need no teaching. I see it one of two ways: either that all the New Covenant promises are not entirely instituted yet - although the Covenant has begun at Jesus' initiation and we recieve some benefits of it now (the view I subscribe to), or it was specifically an end times prophecy. Oddly enough in Hebrews the author says that the "old" law/covenant was still in the process of passing away (which some say may have been a reference to original Judaism which supposedly ceased in 70 A.D.) but it may also imply a time of in-betweenness when both Covenants run simultaneously, thus why everything seems so half-and-half. New Covenant promises include never sinning again, yet here we are under the New Covenant and we still can sin (because of our dual nature - the flesh still clings to us - although the flesh is no longer our true nature any more). We recieve positional justification immediately but we have not yet seen our sins publically declared to be forever gone yet by God (which will happen at the judgement). We have eternal life now, but we will recieve it in full in the end. We are seated in Heaven with Christ, yet here we are still on earth. There is a Covenant tension. NT theologian/scholar Frank Thielman calls this Paul's "now... but not yet" theme. I don't think all of that verse is fulfilled yet either.

------------------------------

He also brought up something I've even wondered about. The torah was prophesied as still going out in the end times and also Sabbath observance and animal sacrifices and priestly duties are all seen in Ezekiel as prophesied for the end days. I wonder how that reconciles with Christ being the substance for all those things?

~Josh

 

[tim-from-pa]

OK---- I can answer a lot of the very valid points this person brought up about the sinful sons of David and other misinterpreted Messianic prophecies. He quoted verses like 2 Samuel 7:14 and the cursed lineage in Matthew's genealogy.

But to answer that, one has to take the same stance that I do--- that these verses do not refer to Christ, but a Davidic descendant reigning even today over the house of Israel. But then that would require one to believe as I do---- British-Israelite teaching. This teaching answers most if not all of his points nicely while mainliners accuse the likes of me of being a cult while they have no real answers for this person (because they reject the true answers).

Well, to be honest, most of your average born-againers and even their leaders don't know that much about the cursed lineage, or the other lines of genealogies that they mistakenly apply to Christ when in fact it does not apply. Then when this intelligent person questions the erroneous teachings, turns off on Christianity.

Fact is, I believe he'll reach the kingdom before our smug, self-assured Christian culture will.

I already answered a lot of these points on an extensive web site that I operate. yes---- this person has some valid points. And that's why it's so important to know one's faith well. You won't get those answers by tuning in on TV or quoting your run-of-the-mill ministry these days.

 

[MarkT]

Why does the subject of 2 Sam. 7.14 "commit iniquity," if, according to Hebrews 1.5, this is Jesus?

This 'iniquity' refers to the blasphemy for which he was crucified. From the point of view of the Jews, it was a serious crime. Remember God didn't tell the Jews everything he was doing because he knew they would deal treacherously with him if they knew. I'm sorry any of you think this man made any valid arguments. He loves his life. He will lose it.

Why does the speaker in Psalms 41.4 say, "I have sinned against Thee," if, according to John 13.18, this is Jesus?

This was David who said, 'heal me for I have sinned against thee.' John 13:18 Jesus is talking about Judas. ??? There's no connection that I can see.

Why does the speaker in Psalms 69.5 mention his "folly" and his "wrongs" if, according to John 15.25, John 2.17, Romans 15.3, and John 19.28, this is Jesus?

Again it is David who is speaking by the Holy Spirit. The Jews were waiting for a son of David but they didn't understand that the Christ is not his son according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. So when Jesus drove out the money changers it was by the same Spirit that consumed David. And when he said, 'They hated me without cause', it was by the same Spirit. So David, being a faithful servant, was faithful to the words and the words were brought back into the disciples' remembrance and they were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the Son of David.

 

[Drew]

Some of the questions are particularly stinging:

* * * Why is it that all of the prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled are all things that are of no practical advantage to anyone, and do nothing to improve the quality of anyone's life, while all of the prophecies that he did NOT yet fulfill are all things that will be of tremendous benefit to every individual on the planet, and all of mankind as a whole? (For example, how does a virgin birth that happened 2000 years ago, or Jesus' being thirsty and being offered vinegar, or being born in Bethlehem, or being killed with a robber, or riding on a donkey, etc... help me out at all? How do any of these "fulfillments" solve a single problem in my life, or anyone's? Yet, on the other hand, when there is world peace, and all the evil people are gone, and all the sick are healed, etc... now THERE are some messianic prophecies I can use!!! ) * * *

I am not sure that he is correct in his assessment. I would claim that Jesus' entry into history has indeed resulted in some "getting rid of the evil people, world peace, and healing the sick". It is obviously true that there still is war, evil people, and illness, but I think there is every reason to believe that Jesus' appearance did change the world fundamentally from what it would otherwise have become.

In other words, one of the problems with what this fellow seems to be saying is the problem of the "path not taken" - we do not know what a "Jesus - less" history would look like since Jesus did, in fact, appear. I contend that when Jesus entered the world 2000 years ago, He established the "kingdom of heaven" and this means that God is carrying out a subtle intervention in history whereby the world is being slowly transformed for the better. I think it is entirely possible that Jesus' influence on the world has profoundly influenced the physical health of the generations that followed. Now Jesus did not invent penicillin or the artificial heart. But one could at least plausibly argue that His teachings about service to the sick and the downtrodden have stimulated the development of medical technologies that have effected much healing. So, without stretching the truth, we can assert that Jesus has indeed "healed the world of sickness" to the extent that the members of His body, the church, have played a role in the development of medical technology. I hope we all agree that there are ways to be healed other than to be slapped on the head by a sweaty preacher in a 3 piece suit bellowing "Heeeeeal!!!" in an exagerrated southern accent.

Same kind of thing with the world peace issue. We do not know how much more violent the world might have been if the "kingdom of heaven", initiated by Jesus, had not been battling "other kingdoms" for control of this world over the last 2000 years.

 

[stranger]

cybershark5886 wrote:

If ever we needed Apolgetics in order to give a reason for the hope that is within us and to refute doctrinal error it is for sincere heretics who were once professed Christians! Worse, this person is still in line with half of God's word: he converted to Judaism. This man has given one of the longest "contradictions" lists I've ever seen, but unlike atheists "contradictions" lists he holds the OT to be the true word of God and tries to expose the NT as a fraud.. .Please take the time to refute some of these important questions.

Hi cyber,

Are you sure it is a man - I had the impression that 'he' was a 'she'. It seems unlikely that 'one individual with as little exposure to Christianity as is mentioned would come up with such a list of objections - so I suspect the list is complied through various sources. While this web site may appear to be 'sincere' exposure will no doubt prove to be a stumbling block for many. The rock of offence has caused her/him to stumble but it is another matter to put stumbling blocks in other peoples paths. It also attacks the claim that Jesus is the Messiah and a rejects the only name given in heaven and earth, by which men (and women) can be saved. That said I have copied the list and will publish responses to some questions of interest.

 

[MarkT]

Why is the speaker in Psalms 69.31 (who we have already established is Jesus) declaring that praise and thanksgiving will please God better than a sacrifice??????? Of all places for Jesus to bring this up (which would be strange enough in any event), isn't this the strangest, right when he's on the cross??????

This isn't true. Jesus was even born yet. How could the speaker be Jesus? Again David was a prophet and a song writer. The words of God came to David as they appear in Proverbs. Then according to the light given him and inspired by the Holy Spirit, he wrote songs to God. Often they are a prayer to God like, 'Hear my cry, O God, listen to my prayer.' Psalms 69:1

Why does God, in Jer. 31:29-30, make a point of stressing that "everyone will die for his own iniquity" - immediately before introducing the new covenant, whereby Jesus will die for everyone else's iniquity? Isn't that a rather strange way for the "tutor to lead us to Christ?"

No. The LORD said in those days they will no longer say the fathers ate sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. It's a good excuse. Blame it on the teachers for eating sour grapes and then giving the children sour grapes. The fathers, of course, were the priests and the teachers of the law and they were making the house of Israel and house of Judah children of the devil. But instead of bringing evil upon them, that is, instead of plucking out the evil ones, the LORD said he would build and plant. The LORD said, 'in those days everyone shall die for his own sin'. I take it to mean they would have no excuse after hearing Jesus. John 15:22 confirms it. Jesus said, 'If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.'

When does the new covenant of Jer. 31:31 come into effect? If it was 2,000 years ago, why hasn't the first 3/4 of verse 34 happened yet?

Verse 34 is concerning the word that came to Jeremiah to say to the Zedekiah. Obviously this came to pass in the days of Jeremiah.

Why will there be sin sacrifices when the messiah comes, when the New Testament is adamant that there won't be? (Hebrews 9:28; Heb. 10:10,12,14,18; Ezekiel 3:18,19,21,22,25; Ezek.44: 27, 29; Ezek. 45:17,20,22,23,25)

What sin sacrifices?

 

[unred typo]

Jewish Challenge

http://amimynation.tripod.com/challenge.html

These complaints are an example of poor logic and non critical reading typical of those who are looking for reasons to disbelieve something. I’m sure he didn’t start out to deny the Messiahship of Jesus but the devil as a roaring lion is ever lurking to find a weak spot in our thinking and build a case against the anointed Lamb of God.

Why does the subject of 2 Sam. 7.14 "commit iniquity," if, according to Hebrews 1.5, this is Jesus?

It doesn’t say he committed iniquity, it says “If he commits iniquity.†Big difference.

Why does the speaker in Psalms 41.4 say, "I have sinned against Thee," if, according to John 13.18, this is Jesus?

The verses that pertain to Jesus are the promises of the preceding verses, not the specific confession of the psalmist. Jesus is claiming the promises made to those who consider the poor, v. 1-3 , and on basis of his intregty, v.12. He is quoting the writer not saying they are one and the same. The promises are to those who “consider the poor.†As we can assertain from reading the gospels the poor were his concern and he identified with them, not the rich.

Why does the speaker in Psalms 69.5 mention his "folly" and his "wrongs" if, according to John 15.25, John 2.17, Romans 15.3, and John 19.28, this is Jesus?

As with the previous example, Jesus is claiming the promises of protection made to his ancestor, David, which he inherited by blood line from him. Jesus is not claiming to BE David. He is identifying with the things that happened to David even though David was the chosen of God. Remember the devil tried to get Jesus to cast himself from the cliff to prove he would be borne up by angels, lest he dash his foot against a stone.

Why is the speaker in Psalms 69.31 (who we have already established is Jesus) declaring that praise and thanksgiving will please God better than a sacrifice??????? Of all places for Jesus to bring this up (which would be strange enough in any event), isn't this the strangest, right when he's on the cross??????

This is an example of the Jewish Pharisaical attitude of making the ritual to be more important than the heart attitude. Jesus explained that while man looks at the outside appearance, God looks at the heart. Remember Paul’s quote in Hebrews 10, “5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.â€Â

The thing stressed is the attitude of willing obedience and not just the sacrifice itself. Does God need blood? Can’t he make all he wanted? What is precious to God is a free will that obeys out of love and an genuine uncaused act of obedience.

King Saul made a grave error in judgment when he spared of the best cattle to make a sacrifice in 1 Samuel 15. Samuel’s words were, “to obey is better than sacrifice and to hearken than the fat of rams.†King Saul had already displayed his rebellious nature in 1 Samuel 13 and God was not pleased. Samuel told him then that if he had obeyed, God would have established his kingdom forever in 13:13. Instead God would seek a new king with a heart after God. We know David passed the test and Jesus even surpassed him.

Why does God, in Jer. 31:29-30, make a point of stressing that "everyone will die for his own iniquity" - immediately before introducing the new covenant, whereby Jesus will die for everyone else's iniquity? Isn't that a rather strange way for the "tutor to lead us to Christ?"

Not at all. The point of the new covenant was that God would write his laws on our hearts, Jeremiah 31:33-34, and before, it was up to the fathers to teach their sons. The problem of the old covenant was that the fathers were teaching their sons wrong and the sons were suffering for the errors that they based their lives upon. They were taught iniquity and idolatry as if it were from God and dying for sins that they were taught as children.

Today, there is no such excuse. God has written his commands on our hearts by the Holy Spirit which he has poured out on all flesh. This was only made possible by the death of Christ who gave himself for our sin, he was not deceived by wrong teaching but followed God even unto death.

These are getting long and I have been warned about that, so I will stop here and maybe take some more another time. As you can see, this person has some very weak arguments against Jesus Christ.

 

[MarkT]

It doesn’t say he committed iniquity, it says “If he commits iniquity.†Big difference.

Unred. My Bible says 'when he commits iniquity'. I understand your point but I don't think you have to qualify the prophecy. Good is seen as evil and evil is seen as good from the devil's perspective. Indeed the world sees us as evil and evil is seen as good. For example, the world sees adultery as good. Greed is good. Divorce is good. etc. and we are seen as evil and we are hated because we hate those things and we are intolerant and we discriminate. We may quote Isaiah, 'Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness.' Is. 5:20 It is so. 'Their partiality witnesses against them. They proclaim their sin like Sodom, they do not hide it.' Isa. 3:9

So when Jesus, for example, drove out the money changers, it was seen as wickedness. So in the eyes of the priests and the teachers of the law, Jesus was wicked. He committed iniquity. I don't have a problem reading the words as they are given. Jesus broke the law and the traditions and he was crucified for his iniquity or wickedness even though he was innocent and without sin in the sight of God. So Jesus was punished for no crime.

 

[unred typo]

MarkT wrote on Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:18 am:
Unred. My Bible says 'when he commits iniquity'. I understand your point but I don't think you have to qualify the prophecy. Good is seen as evil and evil is seen as good from the devil's perspective. Indeed the world sees us as evil and evil is seen as good. For example, the world sees adultery as good. Greed is good. Divorce is good. etc. and we are seen as evil and we are hated because we hate those things and we are intolerant and we discriminate. We may quote Isaiah, 'Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness.' Is. 5:20 It is so. 'Their partiality witnesses against them. They proclaim their sin like Sodom, they do not hide it.' Isa. 3:9

So when Jesus, for example, drove out the money changers, it was seen as wickedness. So in the eyes of the priests and the teachers of the law, Jesus was wicked. He committed iniquity. I don't have a problem reading the words as they are given. Jesus broke the law and the traditions and he was crucified for his iniquity or wickedness even though he was innocent and without sin in the sight of God. So Jesus was punished for no crime.

Thanks for making me look at that again, MarkT. I had merely stated the obvious and hadn’t bothered to look it up. Upon reading the chapter, however, I think we were both wrong here. His son in verse 14 is David and the iniquity of David will be punished by men, but God’s mercy won’t depart from him as it did from Saul, in that, he will have a descendant with an everlasting kingdom; namely Jesus Christ. It Isn’t saying “when God’s son, Jesus, commits iniquity.†The portion of the scripture that speaks of Christ is the ‘descendant of David’ and the ‘everlasting kingdom’ part.

 

[MarkT]

Thanks for making me look at that again, MarkT. I had merely stated the obvious and hadn’t bothered to look it up. Upon reading the chapter, however, I think we were both wrong here. His son in verse 14 is David and the iniquity of David will be punished by men, but God’s mercy won’t depart from him as it did from Saul, in that, he will have a descendant with an everlasting kingdom; namely Jesus Christ. It Isn’t saying “when God’s son, Jesus, commits iniquity.†The portion of the scripture that speaks of Christ is the ‘descendant of David’ and the ‘everlasting kingdom’ part.

I think you were right unred. Jesus did not sin. That's stating the obvious. However when we read, 'when your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers' and, 'I will raise up your offspring after you,' then we know that God is talking about what he will do after David is gone to his rest. The prophecy is that when his offspring commits iniquity, God will chasten him with the rod of men. How else can you put it? Jesus had to be seen as wicked and evil to be put to death. So in that sense, the iniquity was calling himself the Son of God, or what he was being accused of; making himself equal to God. In the light of Christ, we know Jesus did not sin and yet he was chastened with the rod of men and beaten with the stripes of the priests for telling them the truth.

I shouldn't say Jesus broke the law because that would be sin but I should have said he was beaten by evil men for speaking the truth.

When the LORD said, 'my steadfast love for him will not depart', I think he is talking about David's offspring, Jesus.

 

[MarkT]

The last part is end times prophecy. The LORD said, Jesus will build a house for his name and God will establish David's throne forever. According to Lu 1:32, God has given Jesus the throne of David,
'He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.' And according to Rev. 3:21, Christ said, 'He who conquers, I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.' I take it David will be king over the house of Judah and Israel. Jesus will be King over all.

 

[tim-from-pa]

The last part is end times prophecy. The LORD said, Jesus will build a house for his name and God will establish David's throne forever. According to Lu 1:32, God has given Jesus the throne of David,
'He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.' And according to Rev. 3:21, Christ said, 'He who conquers, I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.' I take it David will be king over the house of Judah and Israel. Jesus will be King over all.

No, Jesus does not have the throne yet but will be given that throne according to Luke 1:32. The Throne of David is an earthly throne.

As for 2 Samuel 7:14, it's interesting to note that "commit iniquity" is the same basic Hebrew word used in Ezekiel 21:27 for "overturn" (or, modern translations incorrectly render that word as 'ruin'). IN other words, even if this son of David (the throne) would to be overturned, yet God's mercy would not depart from him.

The Davidic dynasty is an enduring one. While part of this prophecy has Messianic elements in it, as with most prophecy has multiple fulfillments. It occurred immediately with Solomon. It then occurred again and again with any other disobedient son of David. They might be punished, they may be exiled, the world may think they are gone, but they would be an enduring dynasty nonetheless.

There's no need to make the phrase "if he commit iniquity" to apply to a sinless Messiah just because he looked like he committed iniquity. This very song and dancing around scripture to make it fit is probably the very thing that makes our Christian-turn-Jewish friend cringe on their web site.

 

[Veritas]

In all honesty I used to desire to answer questions more, but I’ve learned if a person simply does not want to believe they will do everything they can to come up with excuses.

But a few of these caught my eye because they attack Jesus personally.

Why does Jesus lie in Math. 5.43 about what God said in Lev. 19.18?

" 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD Leviticus 19:18

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' Matthew 5:43

Firstly, if Jesus says He’s God, He’s not going to contradict Himself. Jesus says “You have heard that it was said†not “God said thisâ€Â. People, not God, were going around saying “Love your neighbor and hate your enemyâ€Â. And so God is re-iterating what He meant in Leviticus 19:18

Why did Jesus make predictions that didn't come true, if that's a sure sign of a false prophet? (Math. 16:38, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, Deut. 18:20-22)

There is no Matthew 16:38, there is a Matthew 16:28 “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Just read on into Matthew 17 for the fulfillment: After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. Matthew 17:1-2

Or in Mark 9:1 - And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Just read to the second verse:

After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. Mark 9:2

 

[MarkT]

No, Jesus does not have the throne yet but will be given that throne according to Luke 1:32. The Throne of David is an earthly throne.

Lu. 1:32 is what the angel said to Mary and Mary believed what was spoken to her. The angel said, 'the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.' So Jesus received the kingship when he was born one of us, of the house of David. He was made David's heir according to the flesh. However he would not let the people make him king because he said his kingship was not of this world. So I believe he received the kingship and the throne of David is his. Jesus is Lord.

 

[tim-from-pa]

No, Jesus does not have the throne yet but will be given that throne according to Luke 1:32. The Throne of David is an earthly throne.

Lu. 1:32 is what the angel said to Mary and Mary believed what was spoken to her. The angel said, 'the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.' So Jesus received the kingship when he was born one of us, of the house of David. He was made David's heir according to the flesh. However he would not let the people make him king because he said his kingship was not of this world. So I believe he received the kingship and the throne of David is his. Jesus is Lord.

"will be given" are the key words here. When? In Acts 1:6 the question was asked,

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Meaning of course, the Davidic throne there in the land and victory over their oppressors.

Jesus did not say to them.

"The throne is in heaven now, dummies, because my kingdom is not of this world."

Rather, he said,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

That was sometimes future relative to His ascension.

The Lord answers when He will take his glorious throne here on Earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory....."

The Davidic throne is an earthly throne, and there is nowhere in scripture that says it was transferred to heaven and then will return with Jesus.

 

[Imagican]

This website is but ONE of MANY that refute the existence of Our Savior. Sad, but quite often those that have been planted on rocky ground are NEVER able to 'take permanent root'. Many will ALWAYS be 'searching' regardless of what they 'find'.

And in REALITY, all one NEED do in order to find themselves 'confused' is to simply BEGIN a study of modern religion. For IF there is but ONE GOD and ONE SON, then HOW is it EVEN possible to have SO MANY DIFFERNT denominations ALL saying that THEIR WAY is the RIGHT WAY?

Truth be told there can ONLY BE 'one way'. There IS ONLY ONE TRUTH. And ALL that does NOT follow in this 'light' IS DARKNESS.

Now, HOW do we FIND 'the truth'? A question that has NO answer EXCEPT to the INDIVIDUAL. It is WHEN we fall prey to the 'inventions of man or Satan' that we become entangled in the web of deciet that was FIRST spun in the 'garden'.

I notice that SO MANY like to 'quote' those that the individuals have 'accepted' as having MORE insight than 'others'. Amazing that there are SO MANY that ARE SO insecure in their relationship that they tend to 'follow others' rather than God and His Son.

And, SO LONG as there is SO MUCH schism in The Body over TRUTH, there will ALWAYS be those that 'fall out' of their walk and turn to 'other teachings'. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that ANYONE can DO about it other than follow what we have been convicted BY THE SPIRITto follow, and offer the example that has been given us. For EACH WILL be judged REGARDLESS of ANY efforts or lack there of and the MOST that we can HOPE for is that our LOVE can and will be reflected to those that NEED it MOST.

MEC

 

[MarkT]

"will be given" are the key words here. When? In Acts 1:6 the question was asked,

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Meaning of course, the Davidic throne there in the land and victory over their oppressors.

I don't think it means that. The apostles asked him about the kingdom. Why would they call him Lord if he wasn't the King?

Jesus said, 'All things have been given to me by my Father.' That includes all authority, all power, all thrones. Going by your logic, how can he restore it if he doesn't have it? Then again, they were not asking him about his throne. They wanted to know if it was time for the kingdom to be restored to Israel.

The Davidic throne that you speak of is his. All things were given to him, whether on earth or in heaven.

Jesus did not say to them.

"The throne is in heaven now, dummies, because my kingdom is not of this world."

No. He didn't. So what?

John saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more and he saw new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. Rev. 21:1,2 Peter said, 'the heavens will pass away with a loud noise and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.' 2 Pet. 3:10

Rather, he said,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

That was sometimes future relative to His ascension.

The Lord answers when He will take his glorious throne here on Earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory....."

The Davidic throne is an earthly throne, and there is nowhere in scripture that says it was transferred to heaven and then will return with Jesus.

Jesus received the kingship. He is King so he has the right to sit on the throne. Yeah. When he returns he will sit on the throne and reign on earth from Jerusalem for a thousand years. Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts! We will sit at table with Jesus. And your eyes will see Jerusalem, a quiet habitation, an immovable tent. He will teach the nations and decide for many peoples. The dead will be raised and judged and after a thousand years, the Devil will be loosed and Gog of the land of Magog, Persia, Cush and Put and Gomer and Beth-togar'mah with all his hordes Ez. 38 will try to attack the city and God will destroy them and cast the Devil into the lake of fire. Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth, for the former things will have passed away, and the holy city, new Jersusalem, will come down from heaven and God will be it's light and the Lamb will be it's lamp.