Pharoah's Heart

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

We have all read in Exodus how God hardenned the heart of Pharoah and how subsequently Pharoah's hard heart led to plagues and death. A question that doesn't get asked enough in my opinion is this:

If God could harden Pharoah's heart, couldn't God have just as easily softened Pharoah's heart?

Such a deed would have saved many from pain and saved many lives (including innocent firstborn infant Eygptian babies). Any thoughts?

 

[smaller]

We have all read in Exodus how God hardenned the heart of Pharoah and how subsequently Pharoah's hard heart led to plagues and death. A question that doesn't get asked enough in my opinion is this:

If God could harden Pharoah's heart, couldn't God have just as easily softened Pharoah's heart?

Such a deed would have saved many from pain and saved many lives (including innocent firstborn infant Eygptian babies). Any thoughts?

Without any doubt that could have happened and did in fact happen prior with the Pharaoh in charge at the time of Joseph for example. It was in fact God who granted Joseph favor with 'that Pharaoh,' and in reality it was God who set up the entire deal.

Pharaoh of Moses time is used in the scripture as a 'physical' or 'natural' showing of a supernatural event. It's very simple to understand Pharaoh's 'hardening' when we see, accept and understand what Jesus taught exactly in this matter of "heart hardening." Here is the fact that Jesus, God in Christ not only stated, but also showed in numerous ways and places in the Old Testament and this exact matter is also seen in the New Testament, even more openly revealed:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Word was certainly 'sown' both in Egypt by the Israelites 'going down' into Egypt, where The Word 'grew and prospered' until the TIME elected by God to REMOVE their SEED, His Seed from Egypt.

So, Moses sowed GODS WORD through their lineage, into Egypt and into Pharaoh, and a great resistance was therein formed.

By 'whom' is the question that Jesus' Words put before us to examine.

If we see The Truth of His Words, it is quite easy to see what happened in and to Pharaoh of Moses' time. Was it just then Pharaoh?

Nope. Read Jesus' Words again. The culprit is set right there for us to see.

The fact was then, the fact was 'in the Garden,' the fact was in Egypt, the fact was even in the Israel people. Where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart. It's as simple and concise of a statement from Jesus as there is.

No believer should then see 'just and only' Pharaoh. No believer should see 'just and only' Adam or Eve. Or Cain. Or any other 'sinner.' There is an evil working and worker that jumps into the picture of MAN where Gods Words are SOWN.

Look in the mirror. If you see as Jesus saw, you may see even yourself 'differently.' And the Mystery of Iniquity will be 'revealed' to you within.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[reba]

Sure HE could have softened Pharaoh's heart.

The whole story of Egypt was not by chance twas all part of God's plan.

As far as the babies i look to Him and His mearcy and grace. Better to take the babies then loose them to damnation.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah, and God could have made a rock he couldn't have lifted too.

When you look at the Bible, God has always looked at the heart of man. Take Saul for example. Saul killed Christians, but he did it because he had zeal for God. He loved God and he thought he was doing what God would have him to do. God softened his heart because it could be softened, and he did so with a divine encounter.

Pharaoh on the other hand already had a hard heart, and it came out in the form of killing the Hebrew babies because he felt threatened by the Hebrews. Pharoh's heart was a heart of greed, power and corruption. His heart was already hard and he believed he was the very essence of God (This is supported in Egyptian writings). When he had his encounter with God Almighty, his heart simply became harder. Unlike Paul who's heart softened, and he repented.

It's a matter of heart... it's always been a matter of the heart.

 

[Elijah674]

Yeah, and God could have made a rock he couldn't have lifted too.

When you look at the Bible, God has always looked at the heart of man. Take Saul for example. Saul killed Christians, but he did it because he had zeal for God. He loved God and he thought he was doing what God would have him to do. God softened his heart because it could be softened, and he did so with a divine encounter.

Pharaoh on the other hand already had a hard heart, and it came out in the form of killing the Hebrew babies because he felt threatened by the Hebrews. Pharoh's heart was a heart of greed, power and corruption. His heart was already hard and he believed he was the very essence of God (This is supported in Egyptian writings). When he had his encounter with God Almighty, his heart simply became harder. Unlike Paul who's heart softened, and he repented.

It's a matter of heart... it's always been a matter of the heart.

Short but true. But the deeper picture is the Holy Spirit coming to the point of no return, huh? Psalms 19:13.
And God takes the heat for that. But Gen. 6:3 is factual for why it was so. (and is so! Rev. 17:1-5, just think of immortal maggots + sinners in hell?? while God tell's us that He only has Immortality! 1 Tim. 1:17 + 1 Tim. 6:16)
And hard hearts??

--Elijah

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Yeah, and God could have made a rock he couldn't have lifted too.

When you look at the Bible, God has always looked at the heart of man. Take Saul for example. Saul killed Christians, but he did it because he had zeal for God. He loved God and he thought he was doing what God would have him to do. God softened his heart because it could be softened, and he did so with a divine encounter.

Pharaoh on the other hand already had a hard heart, and it came out in the form of killing the Hebrew babies because he felt threatened by the Hebrews. Pharoh's heart was a heart of greed, power and corruption. His heart was already hard and he believed he was the very essence of God (This is supported in Egyptian writings). When he had his encounter with God Almighty, his heart simply became harder. Unlike Paul who's heart softened, and he repented.

It's a matter of heart... it's always been a matter of the heart.

So God actually did NOT harden the heart of Pharoah as the scriptures indicate? So instead God used His limited power of influence in the case of Saul/Paul to focus Saul/Paul of the right path whereas God use that same ability to NOT influence Pharoah, but rather highlight Pharoah's hard heart?
Such an apologetic approach at explaining the issue at hand seems to stand against what certain scriptures actually say.

 

[stovebolts]

So God actually did NOT harden the heart of Pharoah as the scriptures indicate? So instead God used His limited power of influence in the case of Saul/Paul to focus Saul/Paul of the right path whereas God use that same ability to NOT influence Pharoah, but rather highlight Pharoah's hard heart?
Such an apologetic approach at explaining the issue at hand seems to stand against what certain scriptures actually say.

See, that's the problem with arguing your own doctrinal agenda. I've said nothing of the sort my friend, thus your conclusion is null and void. Try again please.

 

[Sinthesis]

We have all read in Exodus how God hardenned the heart of Pharoah and how subsequently Pharoah's hard heart led to plagues and death. A question that doesn't get asked enough in my opinion is this:

If God could harden Pharoah's heart, couldn't God have just as easily softened Pharoah's heart?

Such a deed would have saved many from pain and saved many lives (including innocent firstborn infant Eygptian babies). Any thoughts?

Exodus also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, thus I don't think you fully understand what is happening in this particular situation. Ultimately this is going to boil down to a freewill argument.

 

[JMJ]

Pharaoh and Esau

God desires for all mankind to be saved and so He sent Jesus as a ransom for all mankind, yet not all men and women are saved and enter into eternal life.

To the persons who choose to love Him until their deaths, He grants these persons eternal life. The persons who do not choose to love Him until their deaths are condemned to hell for eternity.

God does not arbitrarily force some persons to inherit eternal life nor does He arbitrarily force other persons to be condemned to hell for eternity. He did not force Esau to sell his birthright against his will nor did He force Pharaoh to enslave the Israelites against his will. These men freely chose their own destinies and used their own free wills to make their decisions.

For example:

Romans 9:13 "As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€

This is hyperbole/exaggeration to stress the point that God preferred the second-born Jacob to be the leader of His Chosen People instead of the first-born Esau. He does not actually literally hate Esau. God loves all mankind including Esau. Esau freely chose to sell his birthright to Jacob. He was not coerced by God to do it. God did know before Esau was born that he would sell his birthright to Jacob.

Another example of hyperbole/exaggeration is Matthew 23:9-10 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ."

This is hyperbole/exaggeration to stress the point that we are not to desire to be given special titles, privileges, and honors.

What about Pharaoh? Pharaoh freely chose to enslave the Israelites. He hardened his own heart against God and the Israelites, perhaps because of jealousy. The ancient Israelites often attributed their own actions to God. It was their manner of thinking and speaking. God did know before Pharaoh was born that he would harden his heart against God and the Israelites.

Exodus 9:12 "But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses."

Exodus 8:32 "But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go."

It was actually Pharaoh who chose to harden his own heart against God and the Israelites. God did not force Pharaoh to harden his heart against the Israelites against his will.

All prophecies in Scripture were made according to God's foreknowledge of future events.

 

[Denique Coelum]

All things are under God's power and His hand. We might wonder sometimes why God is hardening the heart of some world leaders today, causing them to persecute His people. If He loves His people so much, why doesn't He soften the hearts of these oppressive rulers? The simple answer is because He has a plan, His will is sovereign and His wisdom is boundless.

Pharaoh's heart was hardened, then he was brought down in an important sequence of events from which the children of Israel, the Egyptians and we ourselves can learn a lot.

I think we can draw a parallel with Nebuchadnezzar. God removed the sword of authority from his lawless people and put it into the hand of this gentile king. Thus we have the events recounted in the beginning to Daniel. In the words of Ezra:

"But after that our fathers had provoked the God of the heavens to wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, and he destroyed this house, and carried the people away unto Babylon." Ezra 5 v 12.

Then, as we know, when Nebuchadnezzar grew too proud and arrogant, his authority was removed in an instant.

"The same hour was the word fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar; and he was driven from men, and ate grass as oxen; and his body was bathed with the dew of heaven, till his hair grew like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws." - Daniel 4 v 33.

To quote Solomon now: "Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16 v 18).

When God hardens a heart, He sets it up to be broken. Either it will be broken and brought to Him, or broken and destroyed. Every knee shall bow to the Lord, and it'll be because of the Cornerstone, one way or another:

In the words of the Lord: "But he looking at them said, What then is this that is written, The stone which they that builded rejected, this has become the corner-stone? Every one falling on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it shall fall, it shall grind him to powder." Luke 20 v 17-18.

God hardens some hearts, only for their owners to be broken upon the Cornerstone and come to repentance, to be received in the splendour which greets the prodigal. God hardens other hearts in order that their owners will be crushed beneath the weight of righteous judgement. God gloried Himself in the crushing of Pharaoh and his army (Exodus 14 v 18).

I hope I'm applying those scriptures correctly.

 

[nmwings]

If God could harden Pharoah's heart, couldn't God have just as easily softened Pharoah's heart?

Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart during the first 6 judgments (plagues). God did not intervene until AFTER the 6th judgment (boils.) And when He did harden Pharaoh's heart, it doesn't mean God made Pharaoh more embittered, more obstinate, or angrier towards Him. Pharoah had free choice to submit to the authority of God BUT HE DID NOT! Pharaoh was already deserving of God's justice. God had to toughen Pharaoh up so that he could withstand the next judgment & God could manifest Himself even MORE to Egypt & us today. That's what is meant by "hardened his heart." God had to strengthen him so he could endure.

Such a deed would have saved many from pain and saved many lives (including innocent firstborn infant Eygptian babies). Any thoughts?

Except that wasn't God's intention. Think about this: if God's only intention was to save Israel, then why didn't He just "rapture" them out of there? Because His #1 intention was for both Egypt & Israel to know who He is. The same applies to us here at the End of Days. His #1 priority is not to save His people (for we already are saved) but for the whole world to know that HE is the ONLY God, & no one else is like Him. And the only way to do that is to go after all the false gods of the world and say, "That's not god.... I"M GOD!" The pattern is identical in Exodus & Revelation.

 

[Drew]

Sure HE could have softened Pharaoh's heart.

The whole story of Egypt was not by chance twas all part of God's plan.

I agree. We need to remember that the scriptures present a sprawling, continuous narrative - a lot of things are deeply interconnected.

I assert that this plan included the hardening of Pharoah's heart.

And, as Paul argues in Romans 9, God also planned the hardening of the nation of Israel (that Paul faced in his lifetime).

 

[Elijah674]

We have all read in Exodus how God hardenned the heart of Pharoah and how subsequently Pharoah's hard heart led to plagues and death. A question that doesn't get asked enough in my opinion is this:

If God could harden Pharoah's heart, couldn't God have just as easily softened Pharoah's heart?

Such a deed would have saved many from pain and saved many lives (including innocent firstborn infant Eygptian babies). Any thoughts?

________

Hardened hearts?? What is the difference between Pharoah's heart being hardened & the ones of Rev. 17:1-5???

Case in point:
This is a post that I posted up on another site, to ones post person that I care deeply about. (spiritually)
And this question that you ask about, is one that I do not want to be an ENDING for either one of us posting... he or myself if I am the one in THE BROADWAY of Matt. 7.

[FONT=Verdana,arial]------ wrote: [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,arial]Here's one that DOES apply, Elijah: [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,arial]Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,arial]2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,arial]Pay attention. The church of Ephesus is commended here. They are praised by the Savior. Among the things He praised them for is the fact that they tested those who said they were representing God, and found them to be liars. Do you suppose the churches today are guilty of NOT doing that? And on this forum, have there not been those who have tested false teachers, found them to be liars, only to be rebuked by other members for doing exactly what Christ praised the Ephesian church for doing? [/FONT]

_______

--Elijah here:

Surely! and the verse say's exactly why that is so. Some 'teach' that WORKS have nothing to do with salvation. Verse 2 says otherwise, so who do these ones believe, Christ or their false leader?

2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour,..' + more WORKS of testing & proving (Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16) these lieing ones... and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Again forum: Such stuff as not only one, but many such false (James 2:10) lieing doctrines taught such as 'only belive' (no work, except for their Gen. 4:7 desired one) and O.S.A.S., + Burning in Hell ETERNALLY with calling God a liar in bottom/line with Their documention that They ONLY have Immortality, + thumbing their 'nose' Eze. 8:16-17 at the Lords 'Blessed' Sanctified' & 'Set Aside Holy Day of Worship'!

So there can be NO DOUBT for why Inspiration WARNS of not leaving such Blasphemy! Rev. 18:4 (if one really is 'one' of His people!?)

 

[JJsaint]

We have all read in Exodus how God hardenned the heart of Pharoah and how subsequently Pharoah's hard heart led to plagues and death. A question that doesn't get asked enough in my opinion is this:

If God could harden Pharoah's heart, couldn't God have just as easily softened Pharoah's heart?

Such a deed would have saved many from pain and saved many lives (including innocent firstborn infant Eygptian babies). Any thoughts?

A question to ask is this:

If satan is the cause for sin,and is a trouble for Christians why was it God who hardened Pharaoh's heart and not satan?

 

[Elijah674]

A question to ask is this:

If satan is the cause for sin,and is a trouble for Christians why was it God who hardened Pharaoh's heart and not satan?

Are you serious???

 

[JJsaint]

Are you serious???

Do you have an answer?

If God was the one who hardened Pharaoh's heart and satan causes people to sin or plays some part in it,then why was it God who hardened Pharaoh's heart?

BTW - The word Devil is not mentioned in the OT,satan is not mentioned until the 1 Chronicles 21:1 - now why is that?

 

[reba]

A question to ask is this:

If satan is the cause for sin,and is a trouble for Christians why was it God who hardened Pharaoh's heart and not satan?

JJ this is simple....

Exo 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exo 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

Exo 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Exo 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Exo 11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Exo 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.


I have not searched these verses out to see if there are some repeats as Bibble Stories often do. The first one is enough for me God said He hardened Pharaoh's heart. His Word says so so it is so...

 

[JJsaint]

JJ this is simple....

Exo 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exo 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

Exo 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Exo 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Exo 11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Exo 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.


I have not searched these verses out to see if there are some repeats as Bibble Stories often do. The first one is enough for me God said He hardened Pharaoh's heart. His Word says so so it is so...

Yes! I know God hardened Pharaoh's heart I did not say he did not,my point is that if satan is the cause of sin or evil why didn't satan harden Pharaoh's heart???????

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Pharoah's Heart

Originally Posted by StoveBolts
Yeah, and God could have made a rock he couldn't have lifted too.

When you look at the Bible, God has always looked at the heart of man. Take Saul for example. Saul killed Christians, but he did it because he had zeal for God. He loved God and he thought he was doing what God would have him to do. God softened his heart because it could be softened, and he did so with a divine encounter.

Pharaoh on the other hand already had a hard heart, and it came out in the form of killing the Hebrew babies because he felt threatened by the Hebrews. Pharoh's heart was a heart of greed, power and corruption. His heart was already hard and he believed he was the very essence of God (This is supported in Egyptian writings). When he had his encounter with God Almighty, his heart simply became harder. Unlike Paul who's heart softened, and he repented.

It's a matter of heart... it's always been a matter of the heart.

​

Short but true. But the deeper picture is the Holy Spirit coming to the point of no return, huh? Psalms 19:13.
And God takes the heat for that. But Gen. 6:3 is factual for why it was so. (and is so! Rev. 17:1-5, just think of immortal maggots + sinners in hell?? while God tell's us that He only has Immortality! 1 Tim. 1:17 + 1 Tim. 6:16)

And hard hearts??

--Elijah

PS:
So who forum has hardened whose heart here?

 

[JJsaint]

Re: Pharoah's Heart

Originally Posted by StoveBolts
Yeah, and God could have made a rock he couldn't have lifted too.

When you look at the Bible, God has always looked at the heart of man. Take Saul for example. Saul killed Christians, but he did it because he had zeal for God. He loved God and he thought he was doing what God would have him to do. God softened his heart because it could be softened, and he did so with a divine encounter.

Pharaoh on the other hand already had a hard heart, and it came out in the form of killing the Hebrew babies because he felt threatened by the Hebrews. Pharoh's heart was a heart of greed, power and corruption. His heart was already hard and he believed he was the very essence of God (This is supported in Egyptian writings). When he had his encounter with God Almighty, his heart simply became harder. Unlike Paul who's heart softened, and he repented.

It's a matter of heart... it's always been a matter of the heart.

​

PS:
So who forum has hardened whose heart here?

A matter of heart?

Jeremiah 17:9:The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Matthew 15:19:For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: