Problems With Bible Prophesy

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

A cursory evaluation of the NT yields that there are anywhere from 300 to 365 instances of Jesus fulfilling something spoken of in the Hebrew scriptures. When these claims of prophetic fulfillment are examined under the microscope and fully analyzed, what we see is that many of the supposed fulfillments appear to b no more than the NT writer's blatant and erroneous assertion that Jesus fulfilled something that in many cases wasn't even prophetic. Take the cases of John the Baptist being the prophesied forerunner for Jesus that was to make his path straight found in Mark 1:2-3 and consider Jesus' declaration that it was prophesied that he would be struck and his sheep would be scattered found in Matthew 26:31. Do these jibe with the OT scriptures they are lifted from? Let's see!!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The first I wish to discuss comes from Mark 1:2-4 and the verses read:

As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;

THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.’”

John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

The implication most often drawn from this text is that John the baptizer was prophesied about and fulfilled the prophesy that he would be a forerunner for the Messiah. This very text harkens back to Isaiah 40:3. So I ask the question; Does Isaiah 40 have ANYTHING to do with a Messianic prophesy? And where in the Hebrew scriptures does it even speak of the Messiah having a forerunner as the gospels indicate? Let's look at the text and its context to see if the writer of Mark as well as the religious teachers of the passage made a right application of the Isaiah text.

According to Isaiah, there was a voice crying out to him in/from the wilderness telling HIM to:
"Prepare the way for the Lord! Straighten the roads of our God! Fill every valley… flatten the mountains and hills! All crooked paths must be straightened, and the ruts in the fields must be smoothed! Then the glory and salvation of God will be seen; for, it was Jehovah who told us to do this.'

After Isaiah heard the voice say those things to him, acording to verse 6, the voice then shouted to him to: 'Yell!'

His reply to the voice was this question: 'What should I yell?'

The voice then responds by telling Isaiah how insignificant man is when compared to the utter and unimaginable greatness of the LORD and that Jacob/Israel should rejoice because:

O IsraEl, My servant… Jacob whom I have chosen… AbraHam's seed whom I've loved… those whom I've snatched from the ends of the earth… those whom I called from its heights, and to whom I've said this: 'As My servant I chose you, and you I have never abandoned. So, don't be afraid, for I'm with you; and don't stray, because I am your God… the One who gives you your strength. So, with My righteous right hand, I will help you and save you.'

Your enemies will all be ashamed, and they will not fail to respect you; for, [as enemies] they won't exist, since all who oppose you will perish! You will search and not find them… those drunks who shout insults at you, because they will no longer be… there'll be none to wage war against you, for I am your God who's at your right hand!

No mention of the Messiah or a forerunner that was to come before him in the Isaiah text, so what did Mark make the application that Isaiah 40:3 was a prophesy about John coming before Jesus?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The second one I wish to discuss is found in Matthew 26:31. In context it reads:


Then, as they ate, Jesus took a loaf, and after giving thanks, broke it and gave it to the disciples saying: 'Take some and eat it, because this is my body.' He also took a cup [of wine], and after giving thanks, gave it to them saying, 'All of you drink from it, 28 because this is my blood of the New Sacred Agreement, which will be poured out for many to forgive [their] sins. But I tell you that I definitely won't drink of this product of the vine anymore, until that day when I will drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.'

Finally, after singing songs of praise, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

[It was there that] Jesus said to them: 'All of you will be stumbled [by what will happen to] me tonight, because it's written: I will beat the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.

After the Passover meal, Jesus and his 12 go to the Mt. of Olives and there Jesus tells them that they will be made to stumble because of him that night, because it was written in Zechariah 13:7 the following;


'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

Shall we read Zechariah 13:1 -14:3 to see if the text Matthew claims Jesus appealed to actually has anything prophetic about the Messiah's last days?


'In that Day, all [springs] will then open wide, for the rinsing and cleansing of David's house, and for those who live in JeruSalem. And in that Day it will be,' says Jehovah of Armies; 'The names of their idols I'll wipe from the land, so they'll be remembered no more. And I will remove from the land, the false prophets with their unclean spirits.
'And if there's a man who still prophecies; his father and the mother who bore him, must tell him that he may no longer live! For, he has told lies in the Name of the Lord. Then his father and the mother who bore him, will tie him up, because he prophesied. And it will be in that Day, that their visions will bring them disgrace, as will the things that they prophesied. They'll cover their heads with animal hides, because they will know that they've lied. And they'll say, I'm not a prophet; I'm just a man who works the ground… this is all that I've done since my youth!

'And then I will ask, So, what are these wounds in your hands?

'And they will reply, They were struck in the homes of our loved ones.

'O broadsword, awaken against [such] a man, and against the shepherds [who live in] My land,' says Jehovah the Almighty. 'Strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep… against the shepherds I'll bring My hand.
'And in that Day,' says Jehovah; 'two-thirds will be wiped out and gone, but a third will still remain. Then I'll try them as [you] try gold. But, they will call on My Name. Then I will say, You're My people, and they will say, Jehovah's our God.'

'Look; The Lord's [Great] Day now approaches, when spoils will be divided among them. To JeruSalem I'll gather all nations, and the city will be captured thereafter. All the homes will be looted, and all the women will be raped. Then half of the city will be led away, and the rest (those who are My people), will not be destroyed from the [land]. Then the Lord will attack all those nations, in His battle on the Day of the war.

So, according to Matthew 26:31, Jesus told his disciples that they would be shaken and scattered because it was prophesied that God will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered. Interesting considering the fact that according to Zechariah the shepherds (plural) that would be struck by God were lumped in as it pertains to the punishment from God, with the false prophets spoken of previously in Zechariah 13. These were people God is said to have comtempt for and were being held responsible for misleading God's chosen sheep, I mean people. How in the world is this in any way, shape, or form a prophesy foretelling the plight of the Jewish Messiah and his disciples?

It appears that the writer of Matthew either misquoted Jesus in hopes of duping the unstudied Jews that he wrote to into believing Jesus fulfilled a prophesy about him that was not in fact about him, or Matthew's writer correctly quoted Jesus and it was Jesus that was doing the duping. Either way, it's not a good look for the Bible.

 

[Sinthesis]

Mat 11:13 - For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 - And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 - He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 13:15 - For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat 17:10 - And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 - But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 - Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.​

Unfortunately, unbelievers will always be able to find a way to justify their unbelief to themselves. Biblical prophesy does not pose a problem to the believer, rather its fulfillment stands as a testament to the authenticity of the source.

1Cr 14:22 - Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.[NKJV]​

 

[DPMartin]

Unfortunately, unbelievers will always be able to find a way to justify their unbelief to themselves. Biblical prophesy does not pose a problem to the believer, rather its fulfillment stands as a testament to the authenticity of the source.​

1Cr 14:22 - Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.[NKJV]
​

Well said

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Unfortunately, unbelievers will always be able to find a way to justify their unbelief to themselves. Biblical prophesy does not pose a problem to the believer, rather its fulfillment stands as a testament to the authenticity of the source.

1Cr 14:22 - Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.[NKJV]
​

Sinth, that gross and deliberate misuse of the above passage is shameful. I'm at a loss for words reading this dishonesty. Do us all a favor and reread 1 Cor 13-14 and don't lift passages from their context for the purpose of misleading readers. Now that I think about it, it appears that the writer of Matthew did the very same thing with certain OT passages.

Many believers will always be able to find a way to justify their faith to themselves no matter what is shown to be flawed or fact. Thankfully many other more honest believers value truth above their preconceived beliefs and they allow whatever is true to lead in the development of new beliefs.

Biblical prophesy does pose a problem when it fails to find the fulfillment promised. Its fulfillment does stand as a testament to the authenticity of the source we can agree, but again, when the prophecy fails, we must be consistent in drawn the appropriate conclusion.

 

[felix]

The first I wish to discuss comes from Mark 1:2-4 and the verses read:


The implication most often drawn from this text is that John the baptizer was prophesied about and fulfilled the prophesy that he would be a forerunner for the Messiah. This very text harkens back to Isaiah 40:3. So I ask the question; Does Isaiah 40 have ANYTHING to do with a Messianic prophesy? And where in the Hebrew scriptures does it even speak of the Messiah having a forerunner as the gospels indicate? Let's look at the text and its context to see if the writer of Mark as well as the religious teachers of the passage made a right application of the Isaiah text.

According to Isaiah, there was a voice crying out to him in/from the wilderness telling HIM to:
"Prepare the way for the Lord! Straighten the roads of our God! Fill every valley… flatten the mountains and hills! All crooked paths must be straightened, and the ruts in the fields must be smoothed! Then the glory and salvation of God will be seen; for, it was Jehovah who told us to do this.'

After Isaiah heard the voice say those things to him, acording to verse 6, the voice then shouted to him to: 'Yell!'

His reply to the voice was this question: 'What should I yell?'

The voice then responds by telling Isaiah how insignificant man is when compared to the utter and unimaginable greatness of the LORD and that Jacob/Israel should rejoice because:



No mention of the Messiah or a forerunner that was to come before him in the Isaiah text, so what did Mark make the application that Isaiah 40:3 was a prophesy about John coming before Jesus?

The verse says,

(Isa 40:3-5) The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low: and all the crooked [ways] shall become straight, and the rough [places] plains. And the glory of the Lord shall appear, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God: for the Lord has spoken [it]. (LXXE).

Secondly, what the voice asked to cry isn't quoted properly and represented properly. Let me quote for you.

(Isa 40:6-11) The voice of one saying, Cry; and I said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass: The grass withers, and the flower fades: but the word of our God abides for ever. O thou that bringest glad tidings to Zion, go up on the high mountain; lift up thy voice with strength, thou that bringest glad tidings to Jerusalem; lift it up, fear not; say unto the cities of Juda, Behold your God! Behold the Lord! The Lord is coming with strength, and [his] arm is with power: behold, his reward is with him, and [his] work before him. He shall tend his flock as a shepherd, and he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and shall soothe them that are with young. (LXXE)

What makes you think this isn't a messianic prophecy? I quoted from Septuagint (LXXE), a Greek translation available during the time of Jesus which gives a glimpse of how Jesus's disciples and 1st century Christians understood those verses - which doesn't change any meaning but the way they make it crystal clear that it is indeed speaking about Christ when it refers to "all flesh shall see the salvation of God".

 

[felix]

The second one I wish to discuss is found in Matthew 26:31. In context it reads:


Then, as they ate, Jesus took a loaf, and after giving thanks, broke it and gave it to the disciples saying: 'Take some and eat it, because this is my body.' He also took a cup [of wine], and after giving thanks, gave it to them saying, 'All of you drink from it, 28 because this is my blood of the New Sacred Agreement, which will be poured out for many to forgive [their] sins. But I tell you that I definitely won't drink of this product of the vine anymore, until that day when I will drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.'

Finally, after singing songs of praise, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

[It was there that] Jesus said to them: 'All of you will be stumbled [by what will happen to] me tonight, because it's written: I will beat the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.

After the Passover meal, Jesus and his 12 go to the Mt. of Olives and there Jesus tells them that they will be made to stumble because of him that night, because it was written in Zechariah 13:7 the following;


'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

Shall we read Zechariah 13:1 -14:3 to see if the text Matthew claims Jesus appealed to actually has anything prophetic about the Messiah's last days?


'In that Day, all [springs] will then open wide, for the rinsing and cleansing of David's house, and for those who live in JeruSalem. And in that Day it will be,' says Jehovah of Armies; 'The names of their idols I'll wipe from the land, so they'll be remembered no more. And I will remove from the land, the false prophets with their unclean spirits.
'And if there's a man who still prophecies; his father and the mother who bore him, must tell him that he may no longer live! For, he has told lies in the Name of the Lord. Then his father and the mother who bore him, will tie him up, because he prophesied. And it will be in that Day, that their visions will bring them disgrace, as will the things that they prophesied. They'll cover their heads with animal hides, because they will know that they've lied. And they'll say, I'm not a prophet; I'm just a man who works the ground… this is all that I've done since my youth!

'And then I will ask, So, what are these wounds in your hands?

'And they will reply, They were struck in the homes of our loved ones.

'O broadsword, awaken against [such] a man, and against the shepherds [who live in] My land,' says Jehovah the Almighty. 'Strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep… against the shepherds I'll bring My hand.
'And in that Day,' says Jehovah; 'two-thirds will be wiped out and gone, but a third will still remain. Then I'll try them as [you] try gold. But, they will call on My Name. Then I will say, You're My people, and they will say, Jehovah's our God.'

'Look; The Lord's [Great] Day now approaches, when spoils will be divided among them. To JeruSalem I'll gather all nations, and the city will be captured thereafter. All the homes will be looted, and all the women will be raped. Then half of the city will be led away, and the rest (those who are My people), will not be destroyed from the [land]. Then the Lord will attack all those nations, in His battle on the Day of the war.

So, according to Matthew 26:31, Jesus told his disciples that they would be shaken and scattered because it was prophesied that God will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered. Interesting considering the fact that according to Zechariah the shepherds (plural) that would be struck by God were lumped in as it pertains to the punishment from God, with the false prophets spoken of previously in Zechariah 13. These were people God is said to have comtempt for and were being held responsible for misleading God's chosen sheep, I mean people. How in the world is this in any way, shape, or form a prophesy foretelling the plight of the Jewish Messiah and his disciples?

It appears that the writer of Matthew either misquoted Jesus in hopes of duping the unstudied Jews that he wrote to into believing Jesus fulfilled a prophesy about him that was not in fact about him, or Matthew's writer correctly quoted Jesus and it was Jesus that was doing the duping. Either way, it's not a good look for the Bible.

You fail to realize that Jesus came to this earth to become a curse and sin to take away our sins. What Jesus said in Matthew 26:31 is indeed a curse which He is taking upon Himself - just like Christ crucified at the gates of His Father's city - taking the punishment of an adulterous wife who should be stoned at the doors of her father to the very detail.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The verse says,

Secondly, what the voice asked to cry isn't quoted properly and represented properly. Let me quote for you.

(Isa 40:6-11) The voice of one saying, Cry; and I said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass: The grass withers, and the flower fades: but the word of our God abides for ever. O thou that bringest glad tidings to Zion, go up on the high mountain; lift up thy voice with strength, thou that bringest glad tidings to Jerusalem; lift it up, fear not; say unto the cities of Juda, Behold your God! Behold the Lord! The Lord is coming with strength, and [his] arm is with power: behold, his reward is with him, and [his] work before him. He shall tend his flock as a shepherd, and he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and shall soothe them that are with young. (LXXE)

It's quoted properly, and the full context going all the way to chapter 41 and verse 15 is a part of the quote. I just did a quick summary of the remainder of chapter 40 rather than post the full discourse. But since you feel doing that was an example of me not properly quoting the text, let me add the remaining context following Isaiah 40:11 which goes into the next chapter.

12 'Who [else] could have measured all the water in the sky, with just the span of His hand, and held all the earth in a handful? Who established the weight of the mountains, and all the forests in the yoke of a scale? 13 And who knows the mind of Jehovah? Who has become His advisor, and who can give Him instructions? 14 Of whom has He asked for advice, and who has told Him the things He should do? Who taught Him to be just, or shown Him the right understanding? 15 For, the nations [are to Him] as a drop from a bucket… they've been [weighed] from the crux of the yoke on a scale, and found to be [no more than] spit.
16 'Why, to Him all of Lebanon is unfit to burn, and all four-footed creatures unfit to be offered. 17 All the nations are nothing before Him; He views them as just nothing at all.
18 'To whom can the Lord be compared? Just how would you [make an image] of Him? 19 Aren't all statues created by [artists]? Aren't they each carefully prepared, then cast and gilded by smiths? 20 Doesn't the maker choose durable wood, and in wisdom seek the best place to stand it, so it then cannot be shaken? 21 Do you not know… will you not hear… hasn't this been announced since most ancient times?
'Do you know how the land was established? 22 Why, it's He who set the curve of the earth, and those living on it are like locusts. It was He who established the skies like a vault, and stretched them out like a tent. 23 He established the rulers from nothing, and out of nothing He made the earth.
24 '[Without Him] they can't plant or sow, nor can plants grow roots in the ground. For, He can just breathe and they'll dry… with a blast, like twigs, they will blow away.'
25 'Now, whom can you liken to Me… can you make Me look more important, asked the Holy One? 26 Look high in the sky [and then tell Me]: Who introduced all these things? It is He who assembled them all… all the things in His cosmos; then in His great glory and strength, He named it all when you were unaware!
27 'Would you dare to say before Jacob, O IsraEl, why have you spoken? For, my ways have been hidden from God, so He's been unable to judge me; therefore, He has just gone away.
28 'Don't you know… have you not heard? God [exists] through the ages! It was God who prepared the ends of the earth. Yet, He doesn't tire or get hungry, nor can His wisdom be understood. 29 It is He who gives hungry ones strength, and who brings comfort to the grieving. 30 Why, the youngest of men will get hungry and tired, and the best of men will lose all their strength. 31 But those who wait upon God will grow strong… like eagles they will grow wings. They will run and not tire… they'll keep going and going without hunger.'
Chapter 41

1 'O islands; to Me you should dedicate a feast, for the power of the rulers will be altered. Let them approach and speak with each other, then announce what they have decided!'
2 Who in the east awoke justice, and called for it to walk on its feet? It is He who decides between nations, and He who alone removes kings. So He'll force them to bury their swords, and break their bows up like twigs. 3 And though it is He who pursues them, His feet walk in ways that are peaceful.
4 Who used His might to do all these things? He who called her from first generations; He who said 'I am God… I'm the first, and into [the future] I am! 5 Nations will see Me and fear; to the ends of the earth they'll be startled, so they'll [come to Me] and be drawn together. 6 Then neighbors will decide [to do good for] each other… they'll offer help to their brothers and say, 7 'He who made this was strong (the blacksmith who forged it with a hammer), but just how long can it last?'
And He will reply, 'The bond [between them] is good, for I've made it stronger with rivets… I've established them so they'll not be shaken!'
8 But you, O IsraEl, My servant… Jacob whom I have chosen… AbraHam's seed whom I've loved… 9 those whom I've snatched from the ends of the earth… those whom I called from its heights, and to whom I've said this: 'As My servant I chose you, and you I have never abandoned. 10 So, don't be afraid, for I'm with you; and don't stray, because I am your God… the One who gives you your strength. So, with My righteous right hand, I will help you and save you.'
11 {Look!} Your enemies will all be ashamed, and they will not fail to respect you; for, [as enemies] they won't exist, since all who oppose you will perish! 12 You will search and not find them… those drunks who shout insults at you, because they will no longer be… there'll be none to wage war against you, 13 for I am your God who's at your right hand!
I'm the One who is saying to you, 14 'O Jacob, don't be afraid, and O remnants of IsraEl [don't fear], for I am your helper,' says God. 'And IsraEl; it is I who paid your ransom.

In summary, mankind is insignificant while God is unimaginably great and has chosen from among men the children of Jacob and though they may face hardships, they should still rejoice because they will be blessed while their emenies get utterly destroyed by the hand of Jacob's Mighty God.

What makes you think this isn't a messianic prophecy?

What makes you think it is a Messianic prophecy? Sounds a lot more like prophetic encouragement that Israel's enemies would eventually fall to them in battle and be wiped away because Israel's God would make that happen. Nothing from the text suggests as much as an inkling that this text is refering to the Jewish Messiah. The text has a voice telling Isaiah to cry and declare to the people a message from God, it was not a reference to John the baptizer crying in the wilderness. The text is pretty clear on that.

 

[felix]

It's quoted properly, and the full context going all the way to chapter 41 and verse 15 is a part of the quote. I just did a quick summary of the remainder of chapter 40 rather than post the full discourse. But since you feel doing that was an example of me not properly quoting the text, let me add the remaining context following Isaiah 40:11 which goes into the next chapter.



In summary, mankind is insignificant while God is unimaginably great and has chosen from among men the children of Jacob and though they may face hardships, they should still rejoice because they will be blessed while their emenies get utterly destroyed by the hand of Jacob's Mighty God.



What makes you think it is a Messianic prophecy? Sounds a lot more like prophetic encouragement that Israel's enemies would eventually fall to them in battle and be wiped away because Israel's God would make that happen. Nothing from the text suggests as much as an inkling that this text is refering to the Jewish Messiah. The text has a voice telling Isaiah to cry and declare to the people a message from God, it was not a reference to John the baptizer crying in the wilderness. The text is pretty clear on that.

Isa 40:5 is the verse that is Messianic prophecy in nature.

 

[DPMartin]

Sinth, that gross and deliberate misuse of the above passage is shameful. I'm at a loss for words reading this dishonesty.

No more like the shoe is on the other foot. You are using scripture to prove scripture incorrect. Ether scripture is trusted to be correct or it is not trusted to be correct, in accordance to the Will and the Word that is of God, in the Presence of God. If you say that scripture can’t be trusted because of other scripture. Then how are we to trust that you trust the scripture you say is true, is true?

Do us all a favor and reread 1 Cor 13-14 and don't lift passages from their context for the purpose of misleading readers. Now that I think about it, it appears that the writer of Matthew did the very same thing with certain OT passages.

Do us all a favor and realize that all of the OT is in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah. And needless to say so is all of the NT, and your view of Isaiah 40 is just that, your own. Its not complicated some is toward the Lord making a place for us with God as Jesus did on the Cross and now in the flesh that was risen sits at the Right Hand of the Most High. And the return of the Lord who will make a place for God to be with us. This is all the Bible is about. Us with Him, He with us. And notice not all of it is fulfilled, but your reference to Isa:40 is definitely incorrect. There is a considerable amount of ref. To the Messiah in it. We can go through that if you like.

Many believers will always be able to find a way to justify their faith to themselves no matter what is shown to be flawed or fact. Thankfully many other more honest believers value truth above their preconceived beliefs and they allow whatever is true to lead in the development of new beliefs.

Again you declare honesty about new belief that new belief is honest. Wrong; the Truth of God always was the Truth of God and always was and always is the Truth. To believe the Truth of God is not something new, nor is the Truth of God something new. The Truth of God is Older then all other things created.

Biblical prophesy does pose a problem when it fails to find the fulfillment promised. Its fulfillment does stand as a testament to the authenticity of the source we can agree, but again, when the prophecy fails, we must be consistent in drawn the appropriate conclusion.

No it poses a problem for you. Because you fail to see or understand.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

No more like the shoe is on the other foot. You are using scripture to prove scripture incorrect. Ether scripture is trusted to be correct or it is not trusted to be correct, in accordance to the Will and the Word that is of God, in the Presence of God. If you say that scripture can’t be trusted because of other scripture. Then how are we to trust that you trust the scripture you say is true, is true?

When you say that I am using scripture to show that other scriptures are misleading, YOU ARE TOTALLY CORRECT! Can't you see how big of a problem that is for anyone that believes the entirety of scripture is God-breathed? If one scripture shows another scripture to be false, what if anything in scripture can we trust as being true and in accordance with the will of God as opposed to the writings of flawed men?
As far as me being a pot calling a kettle black, need I remind you that I posted the entire conext of the passages that caused me concern while Sinth pulled a singular verse from its context to back a point he was trying to make making it appear that his point was supported by scripture when in fact a study of the context of the verse he used proves otherwise.

Do us all a favor and realize that all of the OT is in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah. And needless to say so is all of the NT, and your view of Isaiah 40 is just that, your own. Its not complicated some is toward the Lord making a place for us with God as Jesus did on the Cross and now in the flesh that was risen sits at the Right Hand of the Most High. And the return of the Lord who will make a place for God to be with us. This is all the Bible is about. Us with Him, He with us. And notice not all of it is fulfilled, but your reference to Isa:40 is definitely incorrect. There is a considerable amount of ref. To the Messiah in it. We can go through that if you like.

Who told you that all of the OT is in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah? It certainly wasn't the Bible, yet you assert your belief as if you have volumous scriptural backing. Do better DP.
How is it that you draw the cross of the Christ from the text of Isaiah 40? Nowhere is it mentioned. In a previous post I displayed virtually the entire 40th and 41st chapters without a paraphrase in sight, yet you accuse me of asserting my interpretation without scriptural backing. How is that the case? Be honest. From reading the texts, what an honest and unbiased person will see is that you are infecting and complicating it by injecting your desired beliefs as opposed to letting Isaiah tell its own story. Your position requires far more interpretation than I, a person who has always wanted to believe the Bible to be fully inspired of God has, am asserting.

Again you declare honesty about new belief that new belief is honest. Wrong; the Truth of God always was the Truth of God and always was and always is the Truth. To believe the Truth of God is not something new, nor is the Truth of God something new. The Truth of God is Older then all other things created.

No it poses a problem for you. Because you fail to see or understand.

But how do you KNOW FOR CERTAIN what the "truth of God" that you are clamouring about is?
The answer I had always given was that I thought I knew what the truth of God was because it was relayed to me through scriptural revelation given directly from God to the Bible writers. Now, in light of the fact that the Bible writing have found to have flaws, can I honestly keep holding on to my faith in the Bible and making the same assertation? Of course not, unless of course I value my personal beliefs and desires above truth, and if that's the case then my charactor would be highly flawed.

 

[DPMartin]

When you say that I am using scripture to show that other scriptures are misleading, YOU ARE TOTALLY CORRECT! Can't you see how big of a problem that is for anyone that believes the entirety of scripture is God-breathed? If one scripture shows another scripture to be false, what if anything in scripture can we trust as being true and in accordance with the will of God as opposed to the writings of flawed men?

ToT

thanks for the reply

In your view it is flawed, but to many other scholars and those who have spent most of there lives reading and studying scripture for who knows how many generations, don’t see scripture as flawed or the flaw you see, but you have discovered the flaw that all these people have missed. Is this what you are saying?
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Isaiah 40: (KJV)
1: Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
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(Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand) is what this refers to for those in Jerusalem and all around came to see and be baptized by John the Baptist. Bringing their focus and attention to the Lord.

2: Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
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The job that John the Baptists fulfilled by preaching repentance to Israel. At least two if not three of the Apostles were already followers of John the Baptist before they met Jesus and it was John the Baptist that declared and witnessed that Jesus is the Lamb, and Son of God.

3: The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4: Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
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The good tiding of "Jesus" God with us, hence Gospel. And the salvation continues from generation to generation for the Word of God stands forever, but flesh does not. Also the preaching of the Gospel started in Jerusalem, and went out to the rest of the world, after Jesus returned to the Father.

6: The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
7: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
8: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
9: O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
10: Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
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Reference to the good shepherd that has come undoubtably ref to Messiah and needless to say some ref. To He is the Lord. Is He also the Bread of Life given to those who would eat and live?

11: He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
12: Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
13: Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counseller hath taught him?
14: With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
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Much of the rest does refer to Israel’s relationship to God and other things, but the scripture you are gripping about doesn’t refer to this part of the chapter.


15: Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
16: And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
17: All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
18: To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
19: The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
20: He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
21: Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
23: That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
24: Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
25: To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
26: Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
27: Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?
28: Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
29: He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
30: Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
31: But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

ToT

thanks for the reply

In your view it is flawed, but to many other scholars and those who have spent most of there lives reading and studying scripture for who knows how many generations, don’t see scripture as flawed or the flaw you see, but you have discovered the flaw that all these people have missed. Is this what you are saying?

I am my no means the first to see these apparent flaws, so no, others too among those who have spent most of there lives reading and studying scripture for who knows how many generations do in fact see scripture as flawed. For generations scholars have been critical of the Bible in these matters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible#Alleged_fulfillment_of_biblical_prophecies.

 

[felix]

I am my no means the first to see these apparent flaws, so no, others too among those who have spent most of there lives reading and studying scripture for who knows how many generations do in fact see scripture as flawed. For generations scholars have been critical of the Bible in these matters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible#Alleged_fulfillment_of_biblical_prophecies.

This is because not all prophecies in old testament will be fulfilled. The actual word to use here is "promises" instead of "prophecies". When the new covenant came, the old covenant became "obsolete". When the old covenant because obsolete, the old promises are "replaced" with better new promises. Which simply means, the old promises or some of the OT prophecies are never going to happen.

(Heb 8:6) But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

There is nothing wrong in a prophecy being failing as prophecies do fail as in 1Cor 13:8.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

This is because not all prophecies in old testament will be fulfilled. The actual word to use here is "promises" instead of "prophecies". When the new covenant came, the old covenant became "obsolete". When the old covenant because obsolete, the old promises are "replaced" with better new promises. Which simply means, the old promises or some of the OT prophecies are never going to happen.

(Heb 8:6) But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

There is nothing wrong in a prophecy being failing as prophecies do fail as in 1Cor 13:8.

There are examples of conditional promises throughout the OT, however, this thread is not discussing those. This thread is mainly intended to discuss what certain NT writers CLAIMED was a fulfillment of OT prophecy when in fact the OT passages the NT lift from the original context often had nothing prophetic about it. You could say I am making a case that the NT writers took some liberties and at times used fabrication as a tactic in their attempt to support their beliefs in Jesus being the Anointed One.

 

[felix]

There are examples of conditional promises throughout the OT, however, this thread is not discussing those. This thread is mainly intended to discuss what certain NT writers CLAIMED was a fulfillment of OT prophecy when in fact the OT passages the NT lift from the original context often had nothing prophetic about it. You could say I am making a case that the NT writers took some liberties and at times used fabrication as a tactic in their attempt to support their beliefs in Jesus being the Anointed One.

My reply was to what I quoted from you and not specific to the 2 questions of this thread. I did reply to your 2 questions and I don't see any problems.

 

[Stormcrow]

Well, the first thing you have to remember is that the OT of choice by many of the first century (around Jesus' time and after) was the Septuagint, as Greek was the language of the Roman Empire in that part of the world.

The Septuagint differs markedly, in some cases, from the Masoretic translation of the OT (which came some 1,300 years later), which is why some prophecies in our modern translations don't match from New to Old!

Here's one example:

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us). Matt. 1:23 (RSV)

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. Isaiah 7:14 (RSV)

The Revised Standard Version (RSV) does not use the same word "virgin" in Isaiah 7 that it uses in Matthew 1. That's a reflection of using the Masoretic translation of the Hebrew OT into English. But when you look at the Septuagint version of Isaiah, the discrepancy disappears:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel. Esaias 7:14 (LXX)

You can read more about the difference between the Septuagint and Masoretic translation here:

http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm

Scroll down to the second table where the author lists the uses of the Septuagint in the NT and how these verses differ from the Masoretic.

 

[Stormcrow]

ToT...

It might help us to understand what translation of the Bible you are using when you cite a passage, like the one you cited in the OP:

O broadsword, awaken against [such] a man, and against the shepherds [who live in] My land,' says Jehovah the Almighty. 'Strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep… against the shepherds I'll bring My hand.

What translation is this? It's clearly not the King James:

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. Zechariah 13:7 (KJV)

Or the NASB:

"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate," Declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones. Zechariah 13:7 (NASB)

Or the ESV:

“Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who stands next to me,” declares the LORD of hosts. “Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones. Zechariah 13:7 (ESV)

And your translation doesn't even match that of the Septuagint:

Awake, O sword, against my shepherds, and against the man who is my citizen, saith the Lord Almighty: smite the shepherds, and draw out the sheep: and I will bring mine hand upon the little ones. Zech. 13:7 (LXX)

(By the way, on the heels of my last post, neither Matthew 26:31 nor this verse from Zechariah appear in the table of those verses used by the writers of the NT from the LXX, so it's likely this verse was cited from some manuscript other than the LXX.)

 

[Stormcrow]

I am my no means the first to see these apparent flaws, so no, others too among those who have spent most of there lives reading and studying scripture for who knows how many generations do in fact see scripture as flawed. For generations scholars have been critical of the Bible in these matters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible#Alleged_fulfillment_of_biblical_prophecies.

Interesting that - in this case - you would cite Wikipedia wherein even Wikipedia is so "short" in its apparent lack of scholarship on this issue:

Alleged fulfillment of biblical prophecies

The fulfillment of biblical prophecies is a popular argument used by Christian apologists to prove the divine inspiration of the Bible. In prophecy fulfillment, they see evidence of God's direct involvement in the writing of the Bible.[41] However, critics argue that biblical prophecies turn out to be prophecies only because Bible writers arbitrarily declared them to be prophecies or the fulfillments became fulfillments only because biased New Testament writers arbitrarily declared them to be fulfillments.[citation needed]

See those words "citation needed"? It means the author of this particular article either lacks a source for this material, or hasn't provided one even if he has one. Why would you not source material like this? Might it be because your source is so untrustworthy as to make your position look better not to cite it at all?

Again, what translation are you using? Sources please.