Reflections from a pope

[Heidi]

Since I am the Holy Father I can change the verses in the bible and make them say anything I want them to and of course, people better agree with me or they're blasphemying me.

So I have changed Deuteronomy 4:15, "Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully so that you do not become corrupt and make yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or woman, or like any animal on earth, or any bird in the air that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below."

into:

"Therefore, don't watch yourselves because you won't become corrupt when making for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or woman, or like any animal on earth, or any bird in the air that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below." God really didn't mean what he said, so we can make statues just like the secular world does. And because i have replaced God on earth I can make any decree I want to, all in the name of interpretation.


And people better not tell me I'm wrong or I'll feel insulted. Only Christians who hate other Christians would disagree with me and say I'm wrong. Afterall, Peter elected me because he was the one upon whom Jesus said he would build his church. So I have divine power because of a vote from the people.

So my favorite verse is Matthew 23:9 because I have changed that to: "Do call the pope "Holy Father" because he is equal to our Father in heaven and he has the power and authority to alter God's word."

I can always justify that through the interpretation excuse because the words in the bible are obscure to most others, but not to me. That's my favorite verse because calling myself Holy Father intimidates others into believing that they can't understand the bible as well as I can, and it works! Then I can be looked up to and idolized by men. And people are afraid to disagree with me because of tradition. They wouldn't dare go against tradition, so I have nothing to fear.

And that's why it would be nice if most people didn't read the bible. But we're getting a lot of flack from other "Christians" who do read the bible so we better let our congregation read it.

But we insist that they come to us to interpret it or they'll be ex-communicated because only our clergy has the divine power to "interpret" God's word. Afterall, we've been around a long time and that's our trump card. In fact, that's my best way to get people to follow me. So I use the word "tradition" a lot.

What's really fun is being able to decree that Mary was a virgin and sinless all her life. That really gives me power. It doesn't take much to change Matthew 1:25 and Luke 1:47 around. All I'll say is that people can make those verses say anything they want. Just take out a word or two, maybe redfine them or better yet, use the "translation" excuse. It doesn't take much to get others to believe me because I call myself "Holy Father." I then have the palm of the Christian world in my hands because my decrees are considered Christian doctrine. I'lll sure get God's praises for doing all this because I'm such a holy servant of God.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Again, threads @ many aspects are linked humourously @

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24079

I'll just for now say that Jesus called Peter, in the original Greek, PetROS - a pebble, a piece of rock

He then said, 'Upon this PetRA - (the substance rock) - I will build My Church, & the gates of Hell shall not stand against it' meaning Himself as Almighty Creator God

The Bible consistently says, "The Lord is my/our Rock" (& our Fortress, our Strong Tower, our Mighty Deliverer)

Jesus is called the Lord because He is God in human form - as John 1, Colossians 1 & Hebrews 1 make crystal clear

God bless!

Ian

 

[aj830]

Since I am the Holy Father I can change the verses in the bible and make them say anything I want them to and of course, people better agree with me or they're blasphemying me.

So I have changed Deuteronomy 4:15, "Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully so that you do not become corrupt and make yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or woman, or like any animal on earth, or any bird in the air that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below."

into:

"Therefore, don't watch yourselves because you won't become corrupt when making for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or woman, or like any animal on earth, or any bird in the air that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below." God really didn't mean what he said, so we can make statues just like the secular world does. And because i have replaced God on earth I can make any decree I want to, all in the name of interpretation.


And people better not tell me I'm wrong or I'll feel insulted. Only Christians who hate other Christians would disagree with me and say I'm wrong. Afterall, Peter elected me because he was the one upon whom Jesus said he would build his church. So I have divine power because of a vote from the people.

So my favorite verse is Matthew 23:9 because I have changed that to: "Do call the pope "Holy Father" because he is equal to our Father in heaven and he has the power and authority to alter God's word."

I can always justify that through the interpretation excuse because the words in the bible are obscure to most others, but not to me. That's my favorite verse because calling myself Holy Father intimidates others into believing that they can't understand the bible as well as I can, and it works! Then I can be looked up to and idolized by men. And people are afraid to disagree with me because of tradition. They wouldn't dare go against tradition, so I have nothing to fear.

And that's why it would be nice if most people didn't read the bible. But we're getting a lot of flack from other "Christians" who do read the bible so we better let our congregation read it.

But we insist that they come to us to interpret it or they'll be ex-communicated because only our clergy has the divine power to "interpret" God's word. Afterall, we've been around a long time and that's our trump card. In fact, that's my best way to get people to follow me. So I use the word "tradition" a lot.

What's really fun is being able to decree that Mary was a virgin and sinless all her life. That really gives me power. It doesn't take much to change Matthew 1:25 and Luke 1:47 around. All I'll say is that people can make those verses say anything they want. Just take out a word or two, maybe redfine them or better yet, use the "translation" excuse. It doesn't take much to get others to believe me because I call myself "Holy Father." I then have the palm of the Christian world in my hands because my decrees are considered Christian doctrine. I'lll sure get God's praises for doing all this because I'm such a holy servant of God.

Heidi, Heidi, Heidi. You have no idea what you are talking about. You don't understand Church structure at all and use hearsay and stereotypes to fill in your gaps. I have a suggestion. Read Catholicism for Dummies. I am not calling you a dummy(I have read the book myself) it is just a easy to understand and a quick read. It is quite a good book if you actually desire to understand what Catholics believe and why. Then when you attack the Catholic Church you can at least understand how it works or at least why we Catholics believe it works.

 

[Heidi]

Again, threads @ many aspects are linked humourously @

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24079

I'll just for now say that Jesus called Peter, in the original Greek, PetROS - a pebble, a piece of rock

He then said, 'Upon this PetRA - (the substance rock) - I will build My Church, & the gates of Hell shall not stand against it' meaning Himself as Almighty Creator God

The Bible consistently says, "The Lord is my/our Rock" (& our Fortress, our Strong Tower, our Mighty Deliverer)

Jesus is called the Lord because He is God in human form - as John 1, Colossians 1 & Hebrews 1 make crystal clear

God bless!

Ian

Jesus also said; "Do not call anyone on earth "father" for you have one Father and he is in heaven." Jesus did indeed say that upon Peter he would build his church. But where did he say that all future popes will be Peter? :o He didn't. That's just made up by the catholics. So it appears that the Catholics only listen to a few of Christ's words and they distort the ones they listen to. :roll:

 

[Free]

Heidi,

"Jesus also said; "Do not call anyone on earth "father" for you have one Father and he is in heaven." "

Have you ever called your dad "father" or mentioned something about your "father" to someone else?

I strongly suggest if you want to argue from the position of being Pope that you quote extensively from past Popes to make your points.

 

[stray bullet]

Since I am the Holy Father I can change the verses in the bible and make them say anything I want them to and of course, people better agree with me or they're blasphemying me.

Please note: you can't blaspeme the pope.

So I have changed Deuteronomy 4:15, "Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully so that you do not become corrupt and make yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or woman, or like any animal on earth, or any bird in the air that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below."[/quote]

What translation is that?

I can always justify that through the interpretation excuse because the words in the bible are obscure to most others, but not to me. That's my favorite verse because calling myself Holy Father intimidates others into believing that they can't understand the bible as well as I can, and it works! Then I can be looked up to and idolized by men. And people are afraid to disagree with me because of tradition. They wouldn't dare go against tradition, so I have nothing to fear.

Are you admitting that the bible is open to false interpretation and can at times, be obscure?

And that's why it would be nice if most people didn't read the bible. But we're getting a lot of flack from other "Christians" who do read the bible so we better let our congregation read it.

But we insist that they come to us to interpret it or they'll be ex-communicated because only our clergy has the divine power to "interpret" God's word. Afterall, we've been around a long time and that's our trump card. In fact, that's my best way to get people to follow me. So I use the word "tradition" a lot.

The clergy don't interpret the bible. The people shouldn't interpret the bible either- the bible

What we follow is what the apostles taught- before the NT was ever written. It is called "Holy Tradition". Nothing is interpreted because it doesn't need to be. We have the original teachings of the apostles- not just a few dozen books people scramble to make sense of by making their own doctrines from.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Jesus also said; "Do not call anyone on earth "father" for you have one Father and he is in heaven." Jesus did indeed say that upon Peter he would build his church. But where did he say that all future popes will be Peter? :o He didn't. That's just made up by the catholics. So it appears that the Catholics only listen to a few of Christ's words and they distort the ones they listen to. :roll:

Hi Heidi!

The New testament was originally in Greek - 'Peter' was our inadequate translation of PetROS

'Upon this rock' translated Greek petRA - the substance rock

Just time to add that's why Paul calls Jesus 'the chief cornerstone' & us 'living stones'

"No other foundation can anyone lay than that which has been laid"

As Jesus said last on the cross, "It is finished!"

Greek there is a business term - tetelesthai - paid in full

As the Bible repeatedly says, "God/The Lord is our Rock..fortress..strong tower..mighty deliverer"

Must go

God bless!

Ian

 

[stray bullet]

Jesus also said; "Do not call anyone on earth "father" for you have one Father and he is in heaven." Jesus did indeed say that upon Peter he would build his church. But where did he say that all future popes will be Peter? :o He didn't. That's just made up by the catholics. So it appears that the Catholics only listen to a few of Christ's words and they distort the ones they listen to. :roll:

The popes are Peter's successors. As you can see in Acts chapter 1, Matthias replaced Judas.

If you read through the NT, you get the sense of a leadership. At top, is the chief priest, Christ. After Him, there are his apostles. We know as well, there were deacons, church elders, presbyters and even bishop. So we know from the bible there is a single Church, with Christ at top, then the apostles, then the bishops (bishops were in charge of regional Churches, like Ephesus), then the people in charge or with responsibilities within those churches- deacons, elders, etc. Lastly, there were the laymen.

This is all very biblical and commonly agreed to among all Christians. So who was this Church, what did they call themselves? Ignatius of Antioch in the first century called it the Catholic Church. Even the apostles creed, which came before the Gospels were even written, noted a belief in one Catholic (universal) Church. But this Church had a leadership. Ever Church that was established throughout the world was governed by a bishop, who were appointed by the apostles (this is all in the bible).

We know from the bible that James was the leader of the Jerusalem Church. Now, the Gospels, Acts and the epistles only cover the very early decades of our faith. Later on, Peter and his brother went to the capitals of the Empire, Rome and Constantinople to establish their leadership there. Mark went to Alexandria to do the same.

Peter became the bishop of Rome. His successor was Linus (who is also mentioned in the bible).

The fact is, the overwhelming majority of Christians and all historians recognize the Catholic Church as being the original and early Church. By 1500, however, there were movements throughout Europe the broke away. First the king of England forced all the churches in his kingdom to submit to him fully. German kings sided with Calvin and took control of their own Churches- and the unity of Christianity fell apart.

Protestants eventually made their way to America, rejecting Catholicism and many Catholic-like Churches. Creating a country were protestantism was the norm and now many of them aren't even aware of what the Reformation was about or what Christianity was like before 1500.

For some odd reason, protestants in English speaking nations like the US have this bizarre notion that there was a baptist and non-denominational Church on ever ycorner for the last 2000 years like there is today. This whole notion of denominationalism and absence of overall Christian leadership is something that has only popped up within the last 500 years.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, Heidi, Heidi. You have no idea what you are talking about. You don't understand Church structure at all and use hearsay and stereotypes to fill in your gaps. I have a suggestion. Read Catholicism for Dummies. I am not calling you a dummy(I have read the book myself) it is just a easy to understand and a quick read. It is quite a good book if you actually desire to understand what Catholics believe and why. Then when you attack the Catholic Church you can at least understand how it works or at least why we Catholics believe it works.

Unfortunately I have done better than that. I've read the catecism. So are you denying that the Catholics call the pope Holy Father? :o Remember, defending lies only creates more lies. So I suggest you tell the truth or your contradictions will increase.

 

[Heidi]

Hi Heidi!

The New testament was originally in Greek - 'Peter' was our inadequate translation of PetROS

'Upon this rock' translated Greek petRA - the substance rock

Just time to add that's why Paul calls Jesus 'the chief cornerstone' & us 'living stones'

"No other foundation can anyone lay than that which has been laid"

As Jesus said last on the cross, "It is finished!"

Greek there is a business term - tetelesthai - paid in full

As the Bible repeatedly says, "God/The Lord is our Rock..fortress..strong tower..mighty deliverer"

Must go

God bless!

Ian

Again, where does any translation claim that the future popes will be Peter? :o Verses please. Otherwise, the Catholics are making up scripture again. Unbelievable. :roll:

Also, which pope who executed people for disagreeing with him, followed the teachings of Christ and Peter? :o

 

[stray bullet]

Again, where does any translation claim that the future popes will be Peter? :o Verses please. Otherwise, the Catholics are making up scripture again. Unbelievable. :roll:

Also, which pope who executed people for disagreeing with him, followed the teachings of Christ and Peter? :o

Future pope's will be Peter? You mean future pope's will have Peter's authority? We know for a fact that the apostles ordained and gave their authority to other men. We know this with Matthias and the various bishops. That's in the bible.

As for who Peter gave his authority to, this occurred after the Gospels occurred and Acts and after all the epistles were written. So there is no biblical evidence for an event that occurred after the events of the NT. However, for 1500 years it was agreed among Christians that the Bishop of Rome (pope) is the successor of Peter. There are many early church documents on this as well.

 

[Heidi]

Future pope's will be Peter? You mean future pope's will have Peter's authority? We know for a fact that the apostles ordained and gave their authority to other men. We know this with Matthias and the various bishops. That's in the bible.

As for who Peter gave his authority to, this occurred after the Gospels occurred and Acts and after all the epistles were written. So there is no biblical evidence for an event that occurred after the events of the NT. However, for 1500 years it was agreed among Christians that the Bishop of Rome (pope) is the successor of Peter. There are many early church documents on this as well.

Sorry but only God can give authority to men, not men themselves. If the catholics church thinks that the murder of heretics in the middle ages was God ordained, then why don't they continue that practice today?

 

[stray bullet]

Sorry but only God can give authority to men, not men themselves. If the catholics church thinks that the murder of heretics in the middle ages was God ordained, then why don't they continue that practice today?

The bible says plainly that the apostles ordained Matthias as a new apostle. So while the authority comes from God, they can transfer that authority.

What heretics were 'murdered' in the middle ages? Can you please give an example?

 

[Guest]

The bible says plainly that the apostles ordained Matthias as a new apostle. So while the authority comes from God, they can transfer that authority.

What heretics were 'murdered' in the middle ages? Can you please give an example?

If memory serves, I believe around 3,000 Anabaptists were martyred at the hand of the Roman Catholic church because the RCC deemed them heretics.

In regards to Matthias - God ordained whom was to replace Judas - not the apostles. The apostles presented to God two candidates and then prayed:

"You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

Note the bolded phrase. It is GOD who does the choosing. It is GOD who appoints to apostleship.

The apostles then drew lots - which is NOT the same thing as voting is today.

 

[stray bullet]

If memory serves, I believe around 3,000 Anabaptists were martyred at the hand of the Roman Catholic church because the RCC deemed them heretics.

That wasn't in the middle ages. The Church didn't execute anyone, it was the state's the used the death penalty. In the cases of the Anabaptists, they weren't martyred for their beliefs, they were executed for treason. The supports of the Anabaptists fail to mention they were known for trying to overthrow state governments and causing riots.

No one was executed for privately being an Anabaptists. In the rare cases were Anabaptists were executed by the state for heresy, it was the result of repeated warnings for preaching heresy in public.

In regards to Matthias - God ordained whom was to replace Judas - not the apostles. The apostles presented to God two candidates and then prayed:

Note the bolded phrase. It is GOD who does the choosing. It is GOD who appoints to apostleship.

The apostles then drew lots - which is NOT the same thing as voting is today.

We agree on who actually ordains the person- which is the Holy Spirit. Without Him, nothing would happen. In the cases of selecting a pope, Catholics also believe it is through the will of God- that God chooses and ordains the pope through the Holy Spirit.

However, there is the actual issue of publicly recognizing these ordinations- which is done by laying of the hands on the person, etc. The Holy Spirit works through these men, so there is clear and concise authority.

 

[Guest]

That wasn't in the middle ages. The Church didn't execute anyone, it was the state's the used the death penalty. In the cases of the Anabaptists, they weren't martyred for their beliefs, they were executed for treason. The supports of the Anabaptists fail to mention they were known for trying to overthrow state governments and causing riots.

No one was executed for privately being an Anabaptists. In the rare cases were Anabaptists were executed by the state for heresy, it was the result of repeated warnings for preaching heresy in public.

Forgive me, you are correct - that wasn't the Middle Ages... The Middles Ages would have been more around the time of the Inquisitions right? Yeah - noone was killed during that time.

If you want to start a thread about Anabaptist history we can - but most (I realize not all) Anabaptists were pacifists - not the best people to try to overthrow a government or causing riots.

As an Anabaptist - I find your non-challant defense of their martyrdom offensive and shocking.

We agree on who actually ordains the person- which is the Holy Spirit. Without Him, nothing would happen. In the cases of selecting a pope, Catholics also believe it is through the will of God- that God chooses and ordains the pope through the Holy Spirit.

However, there is the actual issue of publicly recognizing these ordinations- which is done by laying of the hands on the person, etc. The Holy Spirit works through these men, so there is clear and concise authority.

IF the Catholics believe it is through the will of God, then why not cast lots? Why the voting process? It would seem then that those who voted for the 'other guy' were not following God.

 

[stray bullet]

give me, you are correct - that wasn't the Middle Ages... The Middles Ages would have been more around the time of the Inquisitions right? Yeah - noone was killed during that time.

The inquistion was not in the middle ages. Sure, people were executed by the spanish government during the inquistion. These injust actions were condemned by the Church.

If you want to start a thread about Anabaptist history we can - but most (I realize not all) Anabaptists were pacifists - not the best people to try to overthrow a government or causing riots.

As an Anabaptist - I find your non-challant defense of their martyrdom offensive and shocking.

When was any anabaptist put on trial for privately believing? Anabaptists were not all pacifists, it is a historical fact they caused violence and were anti-state.

IF the Catholics believe it is through the will of God, then why not cast lots? Why the voting process? It would seem then that those who voted for the 'other guy' were not following God.

They were casting lots before it was not yet pentecost, so the Holy Spirit wasn't there to guide them yet.

 

[Heidi]

They were casting lots before it was not yet pentecost, so the Holy Spirit wasn't there to guide them yet.

That's another false statement. It was the church who ordered them. So again, one lie leads to another and another and another. And it never ends because according to the Catholics, the pope can never be wrong. But Jesus sure can be. It's disgusting. :x

 

[Veritas]

give me, you are correct - that wasn't the Middle Ages... The Middles Ages would have been more around the time of the Inquisitions right? Yeah - noone was killed during that time.

The inquistion was not in the middle ages. Sure, people were executed by the spanish government during the inquistion. These injust actions were condemned by the Church.

Do we have two different versions of history here?

straybullet and anyone else...

The middle ages spanned a huge chunk of history. The early middle ages began in the 6th century and the late middle ages ended at the beginning of the 16th century. (source: here )

The inquisition was a crackdown by church officials from the 13th to 19th centuries. And John Paul, in 2000, apologized for the sins the Roman Catholics made in the name of their faith, including abuses during the Inquisition (source: here)

 

[Guest]

Thank you Veritas. You beat me to the punch. (Oh wait, as a pacifist myself, I do not throw punches - yet I might be able to overthrow the government and create riots! :o )

When I have the time, I might post a history of the Anabaptists and show the persecution they faced because they did not follow the Roman Catholic Church and/or the State. Really - at that time it was hard to distinguish the two.

One of the main reasons the RCC opposed the Anabaptists was because the Anabaptists believed that membership in the church was voluntary - open to those who accepted Christ and was baptized as a believer. This affected the membership of the RCC, the tax base of the local authority who used church memership as a census of sorts, and deminished the tithe.

However, I veer off topic.....