Septuagent and the Apocrypha

[Guest]

In my recent and on going study of the book of Hebrews, I came across an interesting tidbit that might provide relevant to the recent discussions about the Apocrypha.

Fran - you have mentioned numerous times about it's inclusion in the Septuigant and the use of the Sept by Jews.

However, are you aware one reason why scholars do not believe Paul wrote Hebrews is because Hebrews uses the Sept, and in the epistles that Paul writes Paul uses the Hebrew canon?

I believe this to be relevant in that Paul would not have counted the Aprocypha as 'canon'/Scripture.

 

[francisdesales]

In my recent and on going study of the book of Hebrews, I came across an interesting tidbit that might provide relevant to the recent discussions about the Apocrypha.

Fran - you have mentioned numerous times about it's inclusion in the Septuigant and the use of the Sept by Jews.

The letter to the Hebrews is not part of the Septuagint, aLoneVoice. The Septuagint is the Greek Old Testament and does not include any New Testament writings.

However, are you aware one reason why scholars do not believe Paul wrote Hebrews is because Hebrews uses the Sept, and in the epistles that Paul writes Paul uses the Hebrew canon?

I would say that is a biased Protestant-based opinion, because MOST of the NT quotes are from the Septuagint. For example, when Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14, he quotes the Septuagint version - the word "virgin" is used, rather than young woman. Does this nullify the Gospel of Matthew because the author quoted the Septuagint?

Eusebius of Caesarea, the great early Church historian writes about Hebrews:

... Paul's fourteen epistles are well known and undisputed. It is not indeed right to overlook the fact that some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews, saying that it is disputed by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul. But what has been said concerning this epistle by those who lived before our time I shall quote in the proper place. In regard to the so-called Acts of Paul, I have not found them among the undisputed writings.

I do not know why it was rejected by some except to say that some disputed the authorship of Paul. I have seen that some believed that Barnabas wrote Hebrews. Really, I don't think we are going to be able to determine who wrote Hebrews with the information that we have. All that matters is that the Church has accepted it as authoritative.

I believe this to be relevant in that Paul would not have counted the Aprocypha as 'canon'/Scripture.

It is highly unlikely that Paul didn't think that the Septaugint was not Scriptures, because he points the Jews in the Diaspora to THEIR Scriptures - which would obviously be the Greek version, which includes the Deuterocanonicals.

Regards

 

[Guest]

The letter to the Hebrews is not part of the Septuagint, aLoneVoice. The Septuagint is the Greek Old Testament and does not include any New Testament writings.

By "it" I was not refering to Hebrews, but the Apocrypha. Yes - I realize that Hebrews would not be in the Septuagint.

I would say that is a biased Protestant-based opinion, because MOST of the NT quotes are from the Septuagint. For example, when Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14, he quotes the Septuagint version - the word "virgin" is used, rather than young woman. Does this nullify the Gospel of Matthew because the author quoted the Septuagint?

I am sorry, but was I talking about the Gospel of Matthew, or the Pauline epistles? I believe I was referring to the Pauline letters. Paul, for the use of his letters, quotes from the Hebrew canon - not the Septuagint.

I do not know why it was rejected by some except to say that some disputed the authorship of Paul. I have seen that some believed that Barnabas wrote Hebrews. Really, I don't think we are going to be able to determine who wrote Hebrews with the information that we have. All that matters is that the Church has accepted it as authoritative.

While we might not know who the earthly writer was - we do know that whomever wrote it was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write it. So, in effect we do know it's author: The Holy Spirit. Therefore, since God did not see fit to perserve the name of the earthly writer, we can accept that it isn't relevant who the earthen vessel was.

It is highly unlikely that Paul didn't think that the Septaugint was not Scriptures, because he points the Jews in the Diaspora to THEIR Scriptures - which would obviously be the Greek version, which includes the Deuterocanonicals.

Regards

Again - Paul does not use the Septaugint in his epistles - rather he uses the Hebrew canon.

 

[francisdesales]

I am sorry, but was I talking about the Gospel of Matthew, or the Pauline epistles? I believe I was referring to the Pauline letters. Paul, for the use of his letters, quotes from the Hebrew canon - not the Septuagint.

Say what?

Even this attempt to whittle down the NT to "only" Paul to do away with the Septuagint is a poor attempt to discredit the very book that the APOSTLE used (yea, Paul. I even put in Hebrew quotes for you, since you think that the letter to the Hebrews uses ONLY the Hebrew version of the OT)...


Rom. 2:24 / Isaiah 52:5 - the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles. Hebrew - blasphemed (there is no mention of the Gentiles).

Rom. 3:4 / Psalm 51:4 - thou mayest "prevail" (or overcome) when thou art judged. Hebrew - thou might "be clear" when thou judges.

Rom. 3:12 / Psalm 14:1,3 - they "have gone wrong." Hebrew - they are "corrupt" or "filthy."

Rom. 3:13 / Psalm 5:9 - they use their tongues to deceive. Hebrew - they flatter with their tongues. There is no "deceit" language.

Rom. 3:13 / Psalm 140:3 - the venom of "asps" is under their lips. Hebrew - "Adder's" poison is under their lips.

Rom. 3:14 / Psalm 10:7 - whose mouth is full of curses and "bitterness." Hebrew - cursing and "deceit and oppression."

Rom. 9:17 / Exodus 9:16 - my power "in you"; my name may be "proclaimed." Hebrew - show "thee"; may name might be "declared."

Rom. 9:25 / Hosea 2:23 - I will call my people; I will call my beloved. Hebrew - I will have mercy (love versus mercy).

Rom. 9:27 / Isaiah 10:22 - only a remnant of them "will be saved." Hebrew - only a remnant of them "will return."

Rom. 9:29 / Isaiah 1:9 - had not left us "children." Hebrew - Jehova had left us a "very small remnant."

Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Peter 2:6 / Isaiah 28:16 - he who believes will not be "put to shame." Hebrew - shall not be "in haste."

Rom. 10:18 / Psalm 19:4 - their "voice" has gone out. Hebrew - their "line" is gone out.

Rom. 10:20 / Isaiah 65:1 - I have "shown myself" to those who did not ask for me. Hebrew - I am "inquired of" by them.

Rom. 10:21 / Isaiah 65:2 - a "disobedient and contrary" people. Hebrew - a "rebellious" people.

Rom. 11:9-10 / Psalm 69:22-23 - "pitfall" and "retribution" and "bend their backs." Hebrew - "trap" and "make their loins shake."

Rom. 11:26 / Isaiah 59:20 - will banish "ungodliness." Hebrew - turn from "transgression."

Rom. 11:27 / Isaiah 27:9 - when I take away their sins. Hebrew - this is all the fruit of taking away his sin.

Rom. 11:34; 1 Cor. 2:16 / Isaiah 40:13 -the "mind" of the Lord; His "counselor." Hebrew - "spirit" of the Lord; "taught" Him.

Rom. 12:20 / Prov. 25:21 - feed him and give him to drink. Hebrew - give him "bread" to eat and "water" to drink.

Rom. 15:12 / Isaiah 11:10 - the root of Jesse..."to rule the Gentiles." Hebrew - stands for an ensign. There is nothing about the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:21 / Isaiah 52:15 - been told "of him"; heard "of him." Hebrew - does not mention "him" (the object of the prophecy).

1 Cor. 1:19 / Isaiah 29:14 - "I will destroy" the wisdom of the wise. Hebrew - wisdom of their wise men "shall perish."

1 Cor. 5:13 / Deut. 17:7 - remove the "wicked person." Hebrew - purge the "evil." This is more generic evil in the MT.

1 Cor. 15:55 / Hosea 13:14 - O death, where is thy "sting?" Hebrew - O death, where are your "plagues?"

2 Cor. 4:13 / Psalm 116:10 - I believed and so I spoke (past tense). Hebrew - I believe, for I will speak (future tense).

2 Cor. 6:2 / Isaiah 49:8 - I have "listened" to you. Hebrew - I have "answered" you.

Gal. 3:10 / Deut. 27:26 - cursed be every one who does not "abide" by all things. Hebrew - does not "confirm" the words.

Gal. 3:13 / Deut. 21:23 - cursed is everyone who hangs on a "tree." Hebrew - a hanged man is accursed. The word "tree" does not follow.

Gal. 4:27 / Isaiah 54:1 - "rejoice" and "break forth and shout." Hebrew - "sing" and "break forth into singing."

2 Tim. 2:19 / Num. 16:5 - The Lord "knows" those who are His. Hebrew - God will "show" who are His.

Heb. 1:6 / Deut. 32:43 - let all the angels of God worship Him. Hebrew - the Masoretic text omits this phrase from Deut. 32:43.

Heb. 1:12 / Psalm 102:25 - like a "mantle" ... "roll them"... "will be changed." Hebrew - "raiment"... "change"..."pass away."

Heb. 2:7 / Psalm 8:5 - thou has made Him a little "lower than angels." Hebrew - made Him but a little "lower than God."

Heb. 2:12 / Psalm 22:22 - I will " sing" thy praise. Hebrew - I will praise thee. The LXX and most NTs (but not the RSV) have "sing."

Heb. 2:13 / Isaiah 8:17 - I will "put my trust in Him." Hebrew - I will "look for Him."

Heb. 3:15 / Psalm 95:8 - do not harden your hearts as "in the rebellion." Hebrew - harden not your hearts "as at Meribah."

Heb. 3:15; 4:7 / Psalm 95:7 - when you hear His voice do not harden not your hearts. Hebrew - oh that you would hear His voice!

Heb. 8:9-10 / Jer. 31:32-33 - (nothing about husband); laws into their mind. Hebrew - I was a husband; law in their inward parts.

Heb. 9:28 / Isaiah 10:22 - "to save those" who are eagerly awaiting for Him. Hebrew - a remnant of them "shall return."

Heb. 10:5 / Psalm 40:6 - "but a body hast thou prepared for me." Hebrew - "mine ears hast thou opened."

Heb. 10:38 / Hab. 2:3-4 - if he shrinks (or draws) back, my soul shall have no pleasure. Hebrew - his soul is puffed up, not upright.

Heb. 11:5 / Gen. 5:24 - Enoch was not "found." Hebrew - Enoch was "not."

Heb. 11:21 / Gen. 47:31 - Israel, bowing "over the head of his staff." Hebrew - there is nothing about bowing over the head of his staff.

Heb. 12:6 / Prov. 3:12 - He chastises every son whom He receives. Hebrew - even as a father the son in whom he delights.

Heb. 13:6 / Psalm 118:6 - the Lord "is my helper." Hebrew - Jehova "is on my side." The LXX and the NT are identical.

http://scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html


Pretty clear evidence that Paul used the Septuagint. Over and over again... I pray you are open to the evidence and not stubbornly cast it aside.

Regards

 

[Guest]

Fran - I am not trying to whittle down ANYTHING.

Forget it - perhaps it is this headache that I have - ALL I was merely pointing out is that Hebrews (the book in the NT) quotes the Septuagint - ie: it uses the Greek version of the original hebrew language.

However, when Paul quotes from the OT it is from the Hebrew Canon - ie: the original hebrew language.

Sorry - perhaps I am not making myself clear. Can anyone else rephrase this better?

 

[francisdesales]

Fran - I am not trying to whittle down ANYTHING.

Forget it - perhaps it is this headache that I have - ALL I was merely pointing out is that Hebrews (the book in the NT) quotes the Septuagint - ie: it uses the Greek version of the original hebrew language.

However, when Paul quotes from the OT it is from the Hebrew Canon - ie: the original hebrew language.

Sorry - perhaps I am not making myself clear. Can anyone else rephrase this better?

I'm sorry, aLoneVoice, I guess I am not sure what you are trying to say - if you feel the way I think you do after my last post. I posted a number of times that Paul quoted the Septuagint, the Greek OT, NOT the Hebrew OT. He quotes the Greek bible.

I think it is important to remember that most of the Jews considered the Greek Septuagint and how the legend says it was formed (by 72 interpreters locked away separately all coming up with the exact same translation) a sign of its divine inspiration. While we may consider this legendary today, the point is THEY did not.

Anyway, I hope you see from my last post that Paul quotes the Greek langauge bible most often, not the Hebrew bible.

Regards

 

[Guest]

Your list does not present the original Greek or the original Hebrew.

I am sorry, but your list is incorrect - Paul quoted from the Hebrew canon.

 

[francisdesales]

Your list does not present the original Greek or the original Hebrew.

I am sorry, but your list is incorrect - Paul quoted from the Hebrew canon.

I would like you to prove it.

Use the English version of the Hebrew Old Testament and compare it to the English version of the Septuagint. Then, find one of the verses that I gave you. See which one it follows.

I think you are in serious denial, brother. I have no agenda. I present statements that can be very easily verified.

Knock yourself out and prove that I am wrong.

Regards