Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[1pet2_9]

Acts 5:29 We must obey God rather than men!

That was in direct response--defiance--to church leadership. The only caveat is, before you play the Acts 5:29 card you need to be SURE that is the Holy Spirit leading you. The apostles had the benefit of Jesus standing right there in front of them, commanding them in person.

 

[hawkman]

But his illumination of God's truth to me doesn't take the shape of some amorphous, impossible to precisely and biblically describe "voice" speaking directly to my spirit

Does the Voice speak to my mind or to my spirit , I can't say but I "hear" what is said .

Was it an angel or the Holy Spirit that spoke to me one night as I was deep asleep I can not say , but here is what happened .

A few years ago I was talking with a cousin and he told me about his son being in the army fighting in the middle east .
His son told what job he had , riding in a Humvee manning a 50cal machine gun . It was suggested by his dad that the son needed a lower profile job . So a few months later I was sound asleep one night and I was awakened by these words, " Pray for J***" . It took me a little bit to come to and understand what was going on and I remembered , oh yeah J*** is fighting over in the middle east , so I said a prayer for him and went back to sleep .
Not even thinking again about the prayer one day about two months later I hear about J*** , the Humvee he and his squad was riding in took a direct hit from and roadside IED . Some of his fellow soldiers were killed and J*** had suffered massive head trauma . J*** did survive and has raised a family , praise God !

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Great question. One, I think, that many Christians either never think to ask, or are afraid to ask. They want as much latitude as possible, it appears to me, to shoehorn into Christian living, into life in the Spirit, a great deal of what is carnal. It doesn't help that secular society is mad with hyper-subjectivity and the insane resistance to objective - and constraining - reality. I think this hyper-individualism and subjectification of Truth has crept into the Church, manifesting in things like "Progressive Christianity" and the way so many churches tribalize within themselves into age groups, marital status groups, interest groups, political groups, and so on.

Anyway, how does one distinguish the illumination of the Spirit from a counterfeit of the same? I turn to the Bible for answers, of course, considering the matter along the following lines:

What does the Bible tell me the flesh looks like and is ultimately aimed at?

What does the Bible tell me the life and work of the Spirit looks like and is ultimately aimed at?

When these things are clearly-defined in one's thinking, is it possible to distinguish clearly fleshly Self-talk from the illuminating work of the Spirit?

The flesh (by which I mean the "carnal mind" - Romans 8:5-8) is well-described in the NT. It's temporally-focused, slave to the appetites and impulses of the body, radically seeking its own satisfaction and gratification (Philippians 3:18-19). Such selfishness always produces conflict with others, especially with those who are likewise selfish (1 Corinthians 3:1-3; James 3:14-16; Titus 3:3). Such self-centeredness must inevitably be sensual, desiring stimulation of the physical senses and emotions, leading often to various addictions (porn, drugs, food, etc. - 2 Peter 2; Jude 1:4-16).

The life of the Spirit stands in very sharp contrast to the life carnal living produces (even when it is cloaked in religious piety and external law-keeping). Rather than being Self-focused, the Spirit is always glorifying Christ, pressing the child of God to look away from themselves and grow more and more occupied with Jesus (John 16:14; Philippians 1:21; Philippians 3:7-8; 2 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 2:2, etc.). The fruit of the Spirit is never more of us, but more of himself, who is the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Galatians 5:22-23) producing ever-increasing holiness, self-sacrifice, and truth in the life of the believer, always fanning the flames of desire for Christ and resisting our carnality.

So, when I think I've been "illuminated" by the Spirit, I do an analysis, putting the "new understanding" I think I've had under the "magnifying glass" of what I've pointed out from God's word. In what direction does my "lightbulb moment" move me? Toward self-congratulation and pride, or toward humility and an increased appreciation for God and His awesome wisdom and Truth? Does my new understanding bring God more into focus, or myself? As a result of the Spirit's illumination, am I left pondering my own psychology and intellect, my own insightfulness, my own life-story, or am I delighted by the knowledge that, having learned more of God, I move closer to Him and am better able to be used by Him?

Does what I want to say is from the Spirit, his illumination, correspond precisely with God's Truth revealed in Scripture? In immediate context, is what I think is Spirit- illumination of God's Truth correct? Does what I want to call the Spirit's teaching synthesize well with the rest of God's word, also? Does this illumination conform to God's laws of logic and principles of reason?

Finally, is what I think that the Spirit's taught me impacting my practical living and my own thinking, values and beliefs such that Christ is more evident in me (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11)? Most importantly, in consequence of the Spirit's illumination, do I desire God more (Matthew 22;36-38)? Is my love for Him increased, deepened and intensified, such that I will do anything to protect my communion with Him, first and foremost, to die to myself (Matthew 16:24-25; John 12:24-25; Colossians 3:1-3)?

When it's just carnal Self counterfeiting the Spirit's illumination, Christ, love for him, fellowship with God and the crucified life are not radically front-and-center. Instead, sensuality (not sexuality, necessarily) and emotionality, self-improvement, self-analysis, and self-interest supplant the Spirit's Christ-centeredness. Self-serving philosophies of the World often mix into my what I want to say the Spirit's taught me, too, watering down God's Truth, even contradicting it sometimes, making lots of room for pious carnality.

See above. I won't ever point to some inner, subjective "knowing" in justification of my claim that my "lightbulb" moment is from/of God. If I can't reconcile well my illumination by the Spirit with God's Truth given to me in His word, then I will not say my Spirit-illumination is of the Spirit. If the Spirit's illumination doesn't make me more like Christ, inflame my desire (love) for God, and prompt me to ever-more radical heart-separation from the World, the Flesh and the devil, then I'm lying (primarily to myself) if I say it has been the Spirit who has illuminated me.

Well, as you can see above, there's bit more to it than this.

I'm not clear on what you mean here...

Impossible, I would say.

Right. Which it's so incredibly important for Christians to be able to objectively analyze the actual character and source of their thoughts.
Yes, absolutely.

Yup.

That this bit is entirely subjectivized, determined to be so almost entirely on a "I just know" basis that has allowed a great deal of blasphemous stuff to go on among Christians. In consequence of this radical subjectivity about life in the Spirit, religious shysters, who are always keen to make merchandise of believers, offer weekend conferences where, for hundreds of dollars a pop, one can learn to hear the incredibly still and small "voice" of the Spirit, thrash about on the floor in a fit of hysteria, soak, or toke, or be drunk in the Spirit, or practice growing their faith by attempting to run through a wall. Awful, degrading and deeply carnal (as well as demonic) stuff.

No, I'm opposed to those who would offer a very unbiblical and highly-subjective counterfeit of life in the Spirit doing so. I've seen terrible devastation spiritually among those who have been chewed up and spat out by the hyper-charismatic culture, all the result of a migration away from the objective standard of God's word.

This, of course, is a discussion of only one of the Spirit's ministries, i.e., His teaching ministry. Imagine if God was giving you an "Ah ha!" moment and you were to say, "Wait a minute. I need time to find 'objective' evidence that what you are showing me is true before I'll accept it." That, of course, isn't how the "Ah ha!" moments transpire. What actually happens is the Spirit shows you the depth of meaning in a passage that perhaps you have misunderstood or had not considered, and instead of questioning His trustworthiness, you accept what He communicated with joy and appreciation. If other of your beliefs contradict what the Spirit revealed to you in the "Ah ha!" moment, immediately they come into question.

But "leading" is another ministry of the Holy Spirit. When He leads you in a different direction than the one you are going, is it right to say to Him, "I need to find objective evidence in Scripture before I do that"? What objective evidence was needed for Paul and his companions to follow through on what the Lord told them to do?

5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. (Ac 18:5)​

6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. (Ac 16:6)​

7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. (Ac 16:7)​

In every case, no matter the ministry, trusting the Holy Spirit and following through on what He communicates is the key to living a sucessful Christian life. This is the definition of walking in the Spirit, and it is the only way to avoid fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

 

[Tenchi]

This, of course, is a discussion of only one of the Spirit's ministries, i.e., His teaching ministry. Imagine if God was giving you an "Ah ha!" moment and you were to say, "Wait a minute. I need time to find 'objective' evidence that what you are showing me is true before I'll accept it." That, of course, isn't how the "Ah ha!" moments transpire. What actually happens is the Spirit shows you the depth of meaning in a passage that perhaps you have misunderstood or had not considered, and instead of questioning His trustworthiness, you accept what He communicated with joy and appreciation.

Not in my case. Always, because I am - as all humans are - very susceptible to self-deception, I do just as I described and consider what I think is of God in the light of what He has said in His word is of Him. The better a handle I have on what this is, exactly, the better in the moment I am able to discern between self-deception (or demonic deception) and God's actual communication to me. My evaluation now , after fifty years of walking with God is, therefore, more immediate than in the past.

But "leading" is another ministry of the Holy Spirit. When He leads you in a different direction than the one you are going, is it right to say to Him, "I need to find objective evidence in Scripture before I do that"?

Absolutely. Again, humans are notoriously self-deceived and so discerning God's leading must never be left up to mere subjective feeling. I can't count the number of times I've observed Christians who were certain God was leading them in some direction or other who discovered He'd done no such thing, sin and catastrophe often the result.

What objective evidence was needed for Paul and his companions to follow through on what the Lord told them to do?

5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. (Ac 18:5)
6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. (Ac 16:6)
7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. (Ac 16:7)

Objective evidence? "Compelled by the Spirit...". "Forbidden by the Spirit...". "The Spirit did not permit them..." Not they felt the Spirit was leading them here or there, not some inner impulse led them in this direction or that, not a strong sensation guided them. The Spirit led them, unmistakably and concretely - and objectively so.

It is entirely an assumption that the Spirit led the apostles in a highly-subjective, sensation/impression-based manner. When I look at the rest of Scripture and its many descriptions of God's leading and communications to people, no such description is ever given.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Not in my case. Always, because I am - as all humans are - very susceptible to self-deception, I do just as I described and consider what I think is of God in the light of what He has said in His word is of Him. The better a handle I have on what this is, exactly, the better in the moment I am able to discern between self-deception (or demonic deception) and God's actual communication to me. My evaluation now , after fifty years of walking with God is, therefore, more immediate than in the past.

Absolutely. Again, humans are notoriously self-deceived and so discerning God's leading must never be left up to mere subjective feeling. I can't count the number of times I've observed Christians who were certain God was leading them in some direction or other who discovered He'd done no such thing, sin and catastrophe often the result.

You do know you are saying that God (who is Spirit) cannot be trusted, right?

Objective evidence? "Compelled by the Spirit...". "Forbidden by the Spirit...". "The Spirit did not permit them..." Not they felt the Spirit was leading them here or there, not some inner impulse led them in this direction or that, not a strong sensation guided them. The Spirit led them, unmistakably and concretely - and objectively so.

It is entirely an assumption that the Spirit led the apostles in a highly-subjective, sensation/impression-based manner. When I look at the rest of Scripture and its many descriptions of God's leading and communications to people, no such description is ever given.

It is clear they reacted to God telling them by His Spirit what to do and what not to do. It is also clear that you object entirely to the concept that God interracts with us on a spiritual level. But He does. God is Spirit. And those who worship Him must worship in spirit.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Ti 4:1)​

Paul believed the Lord (the Lord is the Spirit) when He told him that people in the latter days will give heed to deceiving spirits. It is obvious that some people will believe the "deceiving spirits". We are given tests for determining which spirits are from God. But it is wholely foreign to Scripture to say that communications from God's Holy Spirit, the most trustworthy person in the universe, are highly subjective, sensation/impression based, and must be vetted against Scripture before being trusted.