Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[Hidden In Him]

There was a thread recently created which touched on the issue of spontaneity, and whether Christians should be able to go where they want or be confined to the limits of one particular group (which presumably applies to things like only attending one church, for instance).

There is actually a very simple answer to this question IMO, and that's that every believer should be led of the Holy Spirit personally, and any church leader who would usurp the Spirit's control over where they went should be avoided like the plague. The quickest path to a dead faith is allowing oneself to be robbed of His personal leading and guidance. But I believe the problem has arisen over two simple facts:

1. The early church never envisioned a time when what church leadership told you to do and what the Holy Spirit told you to do would be two different things, but they often ARE today, which seems to put obeying one's elders AND the leading of the Holy Spirit at odds with each other.

2. This problem is compounded, however, by the fact that many Christians today don't actually have much a handle of hearing His voice and leading personally, so they wander about wherever they think they feel led. This can exacerbate the problem exponentially, because if they are adrift on a sea without any real direction from God, the slightest things can and will affect them. There is no stability in their life and no commitment, so when the enemy comes against what they are currently doing they will buckle and flee. They also won't know when a situation has changed. What begins as a good church or a good ministry can sometimes be turned in a negative direction, and then the decision will need to be made that it is time to leave. By contrast, a church that was in a bad situation could have a change in leadership or direction and then become a place God would lead people to rather than compel them to stay away from.

Everything depends upon the leading of the Holy Spirit, and this is no longer synonymous with what other Christians or even Christian leaders are sometimes saying, so receiving the knowing of the Holy Spirit personally is of the utmost importance.

Other opinions are welcome.

Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Hidden In Him

 

[LeviR]

The Holy Spirt led me away from this topic.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Holy Spirt led me away from this topic.

Good for you, LoL. That's my point.

 

[Hidden In Him]

2. This problem is compounded, however, by the fact that many Christians today don't actually have much a handle of hearing His voice and leading personally, so they wander about wherever they think they feel led. This can exacerbate the problem exponentially, because if they are adrift on a sea without any real direction from God, the slightest things can and will affect them. There is no stability in their life and no commitment, so when the enemy comes against what they are currently doing they will buckle and flee. They also won't know when a situation has changed. What begins as a good church or a good ministry can sometimes be turned in a negative direction, and then the decision will need to be made that it is time to leave. By contrast, a church that was in a bad situation could have a change its leadership or direction, and then become a place God would lead people back to that they once felt compelled to stay away from.

And let me add a few more addendums to the above. The reason many pastor's will sometimes try to step in and guide their people in or away from a particular direction is because they can tell the person is being guided by the flesh, so they will attempt to take the reins as it were in the Holy Spirit's stead. This should be a rarity instead of the norm, however, but these days the percentage of Christians who even know their calling is small, so the need becomes even greater and the question becomes more complex. But the answer is ultimately the same: Without any personal leading from the Holy Spirit a believer will never come to the place where they are not depending upon someone else telling them what to do and when to do it; where to go, and when to go there. And it will only be a matter of time before they are misdirected at best and taken advantage of at worst. The only true answer is to be led personally by the Holy Spirit, so church leadership's ultimate role is to train believers in how to follow the personal leading of the Holy Spirit in their own lives. Without it, all they will ever cultivate is a church full of spiritual dependents who have no real connection with God Himself.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Holy Spirt led me away from this topic.

I got a chuckle out of your response, Levi, but if I were to respond more seriously, I think the reason many are not able to handle this kind of a conversation is because it's more complex than they want to face. They just want the easy route, and to simply have some pastor or leader tell them what to do. They think they will then pass off the responsibility when they stand before God and say, "Pastor so and so told me that's what I needed to do, so I did it." Only it doesn't work that way. It amounts to spiritual laziness and the Lord knows it. Any man who attempts to shirk his own responsibilities in hearing and knowing what God Himself would have him do will answer for it, for God is not mocked, and what a man sows that shall he also reap. If he uses excuses to pass off his spiritual responsibilities, he will reap the consequences of it, either in this life or the next.

 

[LeviR]

Good for you, LoL. That's my point.

The Holy Spirit told me you’re not being honest.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Holy Spirit told me you’re not being honest.

Oh. How so?

 

[LeviR]

The Holy Spirit told me you’re not being honest.

Oh. How so?

He said that anyone who tells me something different than he has already explained to me should be avoided.

 

[Hidden In Him]

He said that anyone who tells me something that he has not already explained to me should be avoided.

Doesn't this assume He has already taught you everything you need to know? I'm not sure that's a good position to take. I've been a believer for 40 years and I have nowhere near learned everything there is to know.

 

[LeviR]

He said that anyone who tells me something different than he has already explained to me should be avoided.

 

[Hidden In Him]

He said that anyone who tells me something different than he has already explained to me should be avoided.

Ok, and what has He explained to you on this subject?

 

[LeviR]

Doesn't this assume He has already taught you everything you need to know? I'm not sure that's a good position to take. I've been a believer for 40 years and I have nowhere near learned everything there is to know.

What you need to know is simple. If you like to know more, that’s endless.

 

[LeviR]

Ok, and what has He explained to you on this subject?

What’s the subject?

 

[Hidden In Him]

What you need to know is simple. If you like to know more, that’s endless.

Ok, but that's another assumption, Levi, and a dangerous one IMO. I don't mean to criticize, and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, but this type of approach can REALLY play into the Devil's hand if you are not careful. Most of the people on this forum for instance know just how intricate some discussions can get on theological matters, sometimes very important ones. Suppose you or someone you love should fall under the leadership of a very clever and Charismatic pastor, but one whose heart became corrupted by money or some other earthy desire and started spiritually abusing his congregation. Would you want them to take a simple-minded approach and just do what they are told, or would you want them to open their eyes spiritually and see that they were being used and taken advantage of, or worse yet spiritually misled simply for someone else's gain?

 

[LeviR]

Fox News has the best looking blonds.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Fox News has the best looking blonds.

Ok, that certainly adds a lot the conversation, LoL.

I do believe I'll let that sit and see if I get any other responses.

God bless, and thanks for sharing LoL.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There was a thread recently created which touched on the issue of spontaneity, and whether Christians should be able to go where they want or be confined to the limits of one particular group (which presumably applies to things like only attending one church, for instance).

There is actually a very simple answer to this question IMO, and that's that every believer should be led of the Holy Spirit personally, and any church leader who would usurp the Spirit's control over where they went should be avoided like the plague. The quickest path to a dead faith is allowing oneself to be robbed of His personal leading and guidance. But I believe the problem has arisen over two simple facts:

1. The early church never envisioned a time when what church leadership told you to do and what the Holy Spirit told you to do would be two different things, but they often ARE today, which seems to put obeying one's elders AND the leading of the Holy Spirit at odds with each other.

2. This problem is compounded, however, by the fact that many Christians today don't actually have much a handle of hearing His voice and leading personally, so they wander about wherever they think they feel led. This can exacerbate the problem exponentially, because if they are adrift on a sea without any real direction from God, the slightest things can and will affect them. There is no stability in their life and no commitment, so when the enemy comes against what they are currently doing they will buckle and flee. They also won't know when a situation has changed. What begins as a good church or a good ministry can sometimes be turned in a negative direction, and then the decision will need to be made that it is time to leave. By contrast, a church that was in a bad situation could have a change in leadership or direction and then become a place God would lead people to rather than compel them to stay away from.

Everything depends upon the leading of the Holy Spirit, and this is no longer synonymous with what other Christians or even Christian leaders are sometimes saying, so receiving the knowing of the Holy Spirit personally is of the utmost importance.

Other opinions are welcome.

Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Hidden In Him

A mature Christian led by the Spirit can tell good from evil. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, He will reveal to you if your pastor and your church have gone apostate. A full blown apostate church would align itself with the worldly culture, they rarely teach anything from the bible, the pastor runs the church like a company, their top priority is size and popularity. Charlie Kirk described such sunday service as "rock concert and TED talk". Some have stooped even lower, they openly preach political talking points which you'd hear from the news, and defile the house of God with satanic activities. If you're in such a church, you'd know - "he who has an ear, let him hear!" This kind of apostasy is systematic, no change of leadership would fix that.

 

[Hidden In Him]

A mature Christian led by the Spirit can tell good from evil. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, He will reveal to you if your pastor and your church have gone apostate. A full blown apostate church would align itself with the worldly culture, they rarely teach anything from the bible, the pastor runs the church like a company, their top priority is size and popularity. Charlie Kirk described such sunday service as "rock concert and TED talk". Some have stooped even lower, they openly preach political talking points which you'd hear from the news, and defile the house of God with satanic activities. If you're in such a church, you'd know - "he who has an ear, let him hear!" This kind of apostasy is systematic, no change of leadership would fix that.

Yeah, I'd say those are some of the more obvious situations, and easier to avoid. I think the bigger problems come in with situations like what I was saying, where you have a very charismatic leader who is not so superficial, but is an abuser behind the scenes in secret. I've known men like this. On the outside to the general congregation, I knew one pastor who was a wonderful man, but his inner leadership would keep disappearing on him, and when I got close enough to him myself I realized why. He was VERY controlling, and very bad news. His wife eventually even left him, with three of her own children being left behind as well she wanted away from him it was so bad. One of those kids - the older son - now despises him and doesn't even claim his last name anymore.

That man has a very large church in this city, and we know several people that swear by him. But it's because they don't know the leading of the Holy Spirit enough to know what his problems are, and they're big ones.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yeah, I'd say those are some of the more obvious situations, and easier to avoid. I think the bigger problems come in with situations like what I was saying, where you have a very charismatic leader who is not so superficial, but is an abuser behind the scenes in secret. I've known men like this. On the outside to the general congregation, I knew one pastor who was a wonderful man, but his inner leadership would keep disappearing on him, and when I got close enough to him myself I realized why. He was VERY controlling, and very bad news. His wife eventually even left him, with three of her own children being left behind as well she wanted away from him it was so bad. One of those kids - the older son - now despises him and doesn't even claim his last name anymore.

That man has a very large church in this city, and we know several people that swear by him. But it's because they don't know the leading of the Holy Spirit enough to know what his problems are, and they're big ones.

I think him being a control freak is no concern of ours as long as he doesn't treat his congregation the same way he treats his family, but it should be a concern for other leaders of that church. After all, apostle Paul laid out the qualifications of a pastor, one of them is "ruling his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence." (1 Tim. 3:4) We're all flawed human beings with our own issues, that's why we need Jesus and his salvation, pastor is just God's mouthpiece, we come to church to receive the message from God. As long as he teaches the bible, discerns the signs of times and shares godly wisdom, then Christ is still the head, it's still a good church. What I described though, is systematic apostasy, you get a TED talk at best, DEI propaganda at worst, and it's not always as obvious as you think.

 

[Hidden In Him]

think him being a control freak is no concern of ours as long as he doesn't treat his congregation the same way he treats his family, but it should be a concern for other leaders of that church.

Well, with his family, the control bordered on serious abuse and neglect, which is why his wife finally left him. But yes, it was being felt by upper leadership as well, and that's why his turnover rate among leaders was very high. If someone completely knuckled under, they'd receive the highest praise, but if they had any objections whatsoever they would be ostracized and publicly shamed during a service (albeit in sneaky underhanded ways, but everyone knew what he was doing and who he would be talking about).

Big time control freak, and the closer you got to him the more obvious it became. The trouble is he no longer allows that many people very close. We can't stand to be in the same room with him now. He makes our skin crawl.