Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[Follower Of Christ]

There was a thread recently created which touched on the issue of spontaneity, and whether Christians should be able to go where they want or be confined to the limits of one particular group (which presumably applies to things like only attending one church, for instance).

There is actually a very simple answer to this question IMO, and that's that every believer should be led of the Holy Spirit personally, and any church leader who would usurp the Spirit's control over where they went should be avoided like the plague. The quickest path to a dead faith is allowing oneself to be robbed of His personal leading and guidance. But I believe the problem has arisen over two simple facts:

1. The early church never envisioned a time when what church leadership told you to do and what the Holy Spirit told you to do would be two different things, but they often ARE today, which seems to put obeying one's elders AND the leading of the Holy Spirit at odds with each other.

2. This problem is compounded, however, by the fact that many Christians today don't actually have much a handle of hearing His voice and leading personally, so they wander about wherever they think they feel led. This can exacerbate the problem exponentially, because if they are adrift on a sea without any real direction from God, the slightest things can and will affect them. There is no stability in their life and no commitment, so when the enemy comes against what they are currently doing they will buckle and flee. They also won't know when a situation has changed. What begins as a good church or a good ministry can sometimes be turned in a negative direction, and then the decision will need to be made that it is time to leave. By contrast, a church that was in a bad situation could have a change in leadership or direction and then become a place God would lead people to rather than compel them to stay away from.

Everything depends upon the leading of the Holy Spirit, and this is no longer synonymous with what other Christians or even Christian leaders are sometimes saying, so receiving the knowing of the Holy Spirit personally is of the utmost importance.

Other opinions are welcome.

Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Hidden In Him

The true church throughout the ages has always been a little flock (Luke 12:32).

The Roman Catholic Church initiated the corporate structure of the so called "church" with a strict hierarchy and priests that do not work for a living, which later got copied by other denominations even though these denominations might have doctrines opposed to the Catholic Church. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 3:7-9 strictly points out that "For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us because we were not idle when we were with you. nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate."

There you go straight from the Apostle's mouth. A church is a congregation of brothers and sisters which gathers in people's homes, nature etc and worship in the process. Nowhere is the church supposed to have a corporate structure, financial statements, tithed clergy etc. Any minister, or pastor or priest that we believe is appointed by Jesus Christ to lead us cuts us off from Christ which is the head of the church, and we labor in vain.

This is the truth, and you shall not hear it in FOX or MSNBC for they cater to the deluded masses who think they have attained salvation just because they follow certain rituals and though processes established in the local church branch with oversight from some self-righteous directors' board up the corporate level.

 

[for_his_glory]

And let me add a few more addendums to the above. The reason many pastor's will sometimes try to step in and guide their people in or away from a particular direction is because they can tell the person is being guided by the flesh, so they will attempt to take the reins as it were in the Holy Spirit's stead. This should be a rarity instead of the norm, however, but these days the percentage of Christians who even know their calling is small, so the need becomes even greater and the question becomes more complex. But the answer is ultimately the same: Without any personal leading from the Holy Spirit a believer will never come to the place where they are not depending upon someone else telling them what to do and when to do it; where to go, and when to go there. And it will only be a matter of time before they are misdirected at best and taken advantage of at worst. The only true answer is to be led personally by the Holy Spirit, so church leadership's ultimate role is to train believers in how to follow the personal leading of the Holy Spirit in their own lives. Without it, all they will ever cultivate is a church full of spiritual dependents who have no real connection with God Himself.

This reminds me of the instructions given to the seven Churches in Asia found in Rev 2-3. Our greatest example is the Church of Philadelphia that we stay pleasing to the Lord in all we do and say.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is just a part of a class I had to take years ago before I could get my Evangelistic license to be able to go teach the word of God in the local prisons. Many things are for a time and a season as I am no longer a licensed Evangelist, but yet a servant under the guidance of the Holy Spirit who gives what God wants me to speak. This is more about teaching, but yet for the full involvement in the administration in the true Church/Body of Christ.

Teaching is a vital part of the Great Commission to believers. We are commanded to teach all nations about the Christian walk and witness. The word teach used by Jesus in His charge to his disciples is actually the word "matheteuo" which means disciple, to enroll as a scholar. Our commission is to communicate and distribute information, to mold lives, to inform, and to inspire. We are called to teach and train disciples.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

As teachers we have the privilege of working with and for the Pastor to strengthen the work of the gospel and to bless families by imparting Christian values to their children. We also see ourselves as workers with the parents encouraging them in their role as the primary spiritual influence in the lives of their children and for those without a family to be a spiritual influence on the community as a leader and teacher.

In Deuteronomy 6:6-9 God, speaking through Moses, instructed the Israelite's to teach their children diligently the things of God throughout the day and to have many reminders of spiritual truths in their homes.

Deuteronomy 6:6 and these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deuteronomy 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deuteronomy 6:8 and thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Deuteronomy 6:9 and thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

When the Sunday school first started in America, many Christian leaders had strong concerns about the whole program, because they were concerned that parents would tend to leave the spiritual training of their children to the Sunday School and neglect spiritual training at home. To be effective you must inspire and influence the child beyond the one hour teaching session as you lead the children into a daily walk with God and help impart vision to parents for daily family devotions and a spiritual atmosphere at home.

This not only implies to the Christian home, but to anyone who imparts the word of God unto others. A good teacher will inspire more than inform. The joy of the Lord is more caught than taught. If you had measles and teach on mumps, what will you most likely impart, other words when you are teaching stay on the subject you are to be teaching and do not drift off into another area or subject as it will cause confusion.

Some of the activities teachers should pursue outside of the classroom include:
1. Prayer - Always pray and seek the Holy Spirits guidance
2. Preparation - take the time you need to prepare your class and to know with authority through the scriptures for what you are teaching.
3. Personal visitation - visit those who have special needs
4. Practice - learn to perfect the way you teach the word, other words perfect your own style of teaching, do not teach like someone else, put your own characteristics and style into your teachings. Use experiences from your past to demonstrate the power this word has to change things in your life. Let people see the light of Christ shine through you and the good fruits of your mouth Galatians 5:22-23.

Galatians 5:22 but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

5. Persistent Bible study - learn what the truth of the word says for what you are teaching. Studying everyday helps us grow in knowledge and understanding which gives us wisdom through the Holy Spirit.
6. Purity in lifestyle - Be an example to others. What they see is what they will also become. Do people see the fruits of the Spirit coming out of your mouth and your actions, or are they seeing the works of the flesh.

We are soldiers under Gods authority. Our purpose is to complement and strengthen the vision that God gives the Pastor of the church you are serving under. Our purpose as teachers is to change lives by stimulating people with a sense of vision and destiny. The message is not only, "I can go to Heaven when I die," but also that God made us for a special purpose to bless him in our life and worship, to help other Christians and to win lost souls to Jesus.

Be a worthy soldier in the army of God and never get entangled with the affairs of this life, other words do not let the things of this world control your life as you are in control of your own live living to please the Lord in all things you do.

2Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2Timothy 2:5 and if a man also strive for masteries yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

The most important thing as a teacher is to study to show yourself approved unto God. As we teach others we need to also remember that we are held accountable before God for every word that proceeds out of our mouth. Do not teach this word of God through mans traditions, interpretation, doctrine or opinions. Teach this word as the Holy Spirit teaches it to you for knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

 

[for_his_glory]

The true church throughout the ages has always been a little flock (Luke 12:32).

The Roman Catholic Church initiated the corporate structure of the so called "church" with a strict hierarchy and priests that do not work for a living, which later got copied by other denominations even though these denominations might have doctrines opposed to the Catholic Church. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 3:7-9 strictly points out that "For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us because we were not idle when we were with you. nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate."

There you go straight from the Apostle's mouth. A church is a congregation of brothers and sisters which gathers in people's homes, nature etc and worship in the process. Nowhere is the church supposed to have a corporate structure, financial statements, tithed clergy etc. Any minister, or pastor or priest that we believe is appointed by Jesus Christ to lead us cuts us off from Christ which is the head of the church, and we labor in vain.

This is the truth, and you shall not hear it in FOX or MSNBC for they cater to the deluded masses who think they have attained salvation just because they follow certain rituals and though processes established in the local church branch with oversight from some self-righteous directors' board up the corporate level.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true church. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because this Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The biggest deception Satan can use is to confuse the unlearned mind. God said his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. You forget me and my word and I will forget you and your children. This is a pretty profound statement that holds so much truth. This is why this world is in the shape it is in today with so many religions claiming they are the true religion and only they will go to heaven and those who do not conform to their ways will go to hell.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Hosea 4:8 they eat up the sin of my people and they set their heart on their iniquity.
Hosea 4:9 and there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.

Truth has now turned to deception of the carnal minds ways of thinking which produces mans interpretations, traditions of law and doctrine. Satan has such a foothold on religions and has side blinded all of us into believing whatever is taught behind the pulpit is truth because after all, they are the Priest, Rabbis, Pastors, etc. etc. and they should know what they are talking about because they are our teachers. Satan is pretty clever and the master of lies and deceit.

1Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil is seeking to whom he may devour.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Peter 5:10 but the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles, (wisdom) of God, if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever, Amen.

Revelation 22:18 for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Teaching is a vital part of the Great Commission to believers. We are commanded to teach all nations about the Christian walk and witness. The word teach used by Jesus in His charge to his disciples is actually the word "matheteuo" which means disciple, to enroll as a scholar. Our commission is to communicate and distribute information, to mold lives, to inform, and to inspire. We are called to teach and train disciples.

I think what's important is to spread the bible everywhere around the world - that's different from teaching it. If people must become missionaries and depart their homes to spread the faith their message should be very simple: Repent and believe the gospel of the coming kingdom of God. Then comes the immersion of believer in the Holy Spirit. No more instruction is needed from then onwards, but the missionary is welcome to work for a living and fellowship with other Christians in the new community he chose to become a missionary. From John 14:26 "But the helper the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to remembrance all that I have said to you."

The true church where true Christians belong to is a little flock. The rest of the denominations quarrel with each other about doctrines and such and are known by their fruits of division. Many don't even teach what the gospel of the kingdom of God is but flatter and deceive their flock with platitudes.

Some will understand the following verse, many won't even though I tell you all that a missionary has to do is plant the seed on the ground and let the Holy Spirit do its work after. From Isaiah 28:26-29 "For he is rightly instructed, His God teaches him. Dill is not threshed with a threshing sledge, not is a cart wheel rolled over cumin, but dill is beaten out with a stick and cumin with a rod. Does one crush grain for bread? No, he does not thresh it forever; when he drives his cart wheel over it with his horses, he does not crush it. This also comes from the Lord of Hosts; he is wonderful in counsel and excellent in wisdom."

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true church. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because this Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

I think we are saying very similar things in essence. God bless!

 

[Tenchi]

There is actually a very simple answer to this question IMO, and that's that every believer should be led of the Holy Spirit personally,

And so, what is the leading of the Holy Spirit, exactly? What does it look like? How is the leading of the Holy Spirit clearly distinguished from mere inner self-talk masquerading as "the Spirit's voice," or from a demonic counterfeit that does the same? What objective, authoritative basis does the Christian have for saying confidently, "The Holy Spirit led me in this direction"?

The matter of "Spirit leading" has become, I think, an incredibly subjectivized, confused and even blasphemous region of Christian thought and practice. Spirit-toking, soaking and drunkenness are ugly examples. Benny Hinn, Todd White, and Kenneth Copeland (to name only a few) have been making merchandise and fools of believers for years, encouraging them into all sorts of highly-subjective false doctrines and sensual paganistic "spirituality." And so, in response, some believers have institutionalized "experiencing God," making interactions with Him possible only in "authorized" worship services, official sacramental rituals, and the teaching of ordained, institutionally-acknowledged clergy. Others have intellectualized the faith, making themselves certain of it, not because they experience God directly and personally every day, but because they have marshaled a robust philosophical, historical and natural apologetic for their faith. They have no need, then, of the sort of subjective experience of God that they see lends itself to distortion of God and His Truth.

I've been discipling believers for almost thirty years and have had to explain - biblically - the matter of the "leading of the Spirit" many times and so am quite curious what will be offered in this thread. My expectation is that there will be the usual misrepresentation of Scripture, deep confusion and hyper-subjectivity that attends modern Christian thought on this subject. But, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

To speak of the Spirit's leading is to speak of life in the Spirit, of the daily transformative work of the Holy Spirit within every genuine, born-again child of God. The Christian who wants to tell me they are being led of the Spirit, must be able to explain how he is working every day within them in the manner in which the Bible says he will.

John 14:26
John 16:8-13
Ephesians 3:16
Romans 8:9-16
1 Corinthians 2:10-16
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
2 Corinthians 3:18
Galatians 5:16, 25

And so on.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I've been discipling believers for almost thirty years and have had to explain - biblically - the matter of the "leading of the Spirit" many times and so am quite curious what will be offered in this thread. My expectation is that there will be the usual misrepresentation of Scripture, deep confusion and hyper-subjectivity that attends modern Christian thought on this subject. But, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Please read the whole thread. You will find that many things mentioned have nothing to do with modern Christian thought but go back to the beginning of the church age. As for the matter of you being pleasantly surprised or not that is irrelevant to the truth of the conversation, just a subjective reaction on your part. I mention that since you seem so keen to avoid subjectivity.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think what's important is to spread the bible everywhere around the world - that's different from teaching it. If people must become missionaries and depart their homes to spread the faith their message should be very simple: Repent and believe the gospel of the coming kingdom of God. Then comes the immersion of believer in the Holy Spirit. No more instruction is needed from then onwards, but the missionary is welcome to work for a living and fellowship with other Christians in the new community he chose to become a missionary. From John 14:26 "But the helper the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to remembrance all that I have said to you."

The true church where true Christians belong to is a little flock. The rest of the denominations quarrel with each other about doctrines and such and are known by their fruits of division. Many don't even teach what the gospel of the kingdom of God is but flatter and deceive their flock with platitudes.

Some will understand the following verse, many won't even though I tell you all that a missionary has to do is plant the seed on the ground and let the Holy Spirit do its work after. From Isaiah 28:26-29 "For he is rightly instructed, His God teaches him. Dill is not threshed with a threshing sledge, not is a cart wheel rolled over cumin, but dill is beaten out with a stick and cumin with a rod. Does one crush grain for bread? No, he does not thresh it forever; when he drives his cart wheel over it with his horses, he does not crush it. This also comes from the Lord of Hosts; he is wonderful in counsel and excellent in wisdom."

Whether it be a Pastor no matter the size of their flock or just any individual that has been called and anointed by the Holy Spirit to teach the word of God being a disciple of Christ Jesus also need to be approachable and prepared in and out of season to answer any questions that are asked of what they have taught. Yes, one plants the seed, another waters the seed, but they are not anything of themselves and it is God that brings in the harvest.
I've been to small and mega church's where no matter the size some Pastors are not even approachable. I always like to talk to the Pastor of a new church I walk into, or even ask them questions of what they have just taught in their sermons, but all I have ever gotten from most of them is they have no time to talk, little known to even answer any questions. That is because many Pastors are handed what they are to preach and many have very little knowledge in the word of God because they do not study for themselves. When I lived in San Antonio I visit a mega church there and after the service I wanted to speak to the Pastor, whom I will not name, but the Elders of the Church said that he does not speak to anyone in the congregation and even has body guards as he fears for his life. Basically what it comes down to is to study for yourself praying and asking the Holy Spirit to teach you all truths, 2Timothy 2:15-16.

2Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Tim 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Divisions in the Church
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Co 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Co 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
1Co 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Any minister, or pastor or priest that we believe is appointed by Jesus Christ to lead us cuts us off from Christ which is the head of the church, and we labor in vain.

Greetings Follower.

This line above might be a little too harsh IMO. I believe in the principle of spiritual leadership, only like I said in the OP, the guidance and direction that spiritual leadership gives us should be synonymous with what the Holy Spirit does. If you do away with the concept of church leadership, you have to discard a whole lot of scripture in the process.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden

 

[Hidden In Him]

We are soldiers under Gods authority. Our purpose is to complement and strengthen the vision that God gives the Pastor of the church you are serving under... Be a worthy soldier in the army of God and never get entangled with the affairs of this life, other words do not let the things of this world control your life as you are in control of your own live living to please the Lord in all things you do.

This is a long post but let me at least play off of this right here, because the analogy of army leadership will be especially relevant in the end-times (Joel 2:28-31)

Going back to the OP, here is the problem I see. Soldiers don't choose who they will fight with, they are assigned who they will fight with. Maybe they would wish to be in this unit but higher command tells them they are in this one instead. Does a true soldier simply go wherever he wants to or does he go where he is ordered to go? It again has to do with how many Christians truly hear from the Spirit of God enough to know what His specific will for their life is, and if one doesn't then he is adrift and not really under the leadership of the Holy Spirit yet, at least not to any great degree. It's only when we enter into the center of God's specific will and can hear Him directing our affairs on a daily basis that we even make sense in the army of God, and much of the church is IMO still in a place where they are a disorganized rabble.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Greetings Follower.

This line above might be a little too harsh IMO. I believe in the principle of spiritual leadership, only like I said in the OP, the guidance and direction that spiritual leadership gives us should be synonymous with what the Holy Spirit does. If you do away with the concept of church leadership, you have to discard a whole lot of scripture in the process.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden

You asked a deadly serious question in your thread, so my answer seems a bit harsh. I do not believe in church leadership, just a congregation of brothers and sisters in Christ. The word of God through the bible was carried through the ages because so God decreed. From Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but the one who does the will of the Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me "Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty WORKS on your name. And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me you workers of lawlessness."

Personally, I work my salvation with fear and trembling yet with plenty of joy. I know that I must continue on my path until the end. And I have a personal relationship with Christ whom I follow. I listen to what others have to say respectfully and humbly and check it out against the scripture myself. By the way, I never met a pastor or priest that inspired me to follow Christ in its simplicity.

God Bless!
Follower of Christ

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Christ in its simplicity.

I meant Christ in his simplicity.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And so, what is the leading of the Holy Spirit, exactly? What does it look like? How is the leading of the Holy Spirit clearly distinguished from mere inner self-talk masquerading as "the Spirit's voice," or from a demonic counterfeit that does the same? What objective, authoritative basis does the Christian have for saying confidently, "The Holy Spirit led me in this direction"?

The matter of "Spirit leading" has become, I think, an incredibly subjectivized, confused and even blasphemous region of Christian thought and practice. Spirit-toking, soaking and drunkenness are ugly examples. Benny Hinn, Todd White, and Kenneth Copeland (to name only a few) have been making merchandise and fools of believers for years, encouraging them into all sorts of highly-subjective false doctrines and sensual paganistic "spirituality." And so, in response, some believers have institutionalized "experiencing God," making interactions with Him possible only in "authorized" worship services, official sacramental rituals, and the teaching of ordained, institutionally-acknowledged clergy. Others have intellectualized the faith, making themselves certain of it, not because they experience God directly and personally every day, but because they have marshaled a robust philosophical, historical and natural apologetic for their faith. They have no need, then, of the sort of subjective experience of God that they see lends itself to distortion of God and His Truth.

I've been discipling believers for almost thirty years and have had to explain - biblically - the matter of the "leading of the Spirit" many times and so am quite curious what will be offered in this thread. My expectation is that there will be the usual misrepresentation of Scripture, deep confusion and hyper-subjectivity that attends modern Christian thought on this subject. But, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

To speak of the Spirit's leading is to speak of life in the Spirit, of the daily transformative work of the Holy Spirit within every genuine, born-again child of God. The Christian who wants to tell me they are being led of the Spirit, must be able to explain how he is working every day within them in the manner in which the Bible says he will.

John 14:26
John 16:8-13
Ephesians 3:16
Romans 8:9-16
1 Corinthians 2:10-16
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
2 Corinthians 3:18
Galatians 5:16, 25

And so on.

Hello Tenchi.

I think you and I would take different sides here, as the background you are coming from doesn't tend to speak in terms of personal leading quite as much. Are there some if not many who falsely go by subjective leading that they suppose is the leading of the Holy Spirit? Certainly there are, and this is part of the problem as I have been stating in my posts. But now, the early church was not so subjective. They received very specific direction on where they were to go and what they were to do. Take Paul's travels to Asia for example:

6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. 8 So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 Now after he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the gospel to them. (Acts 16)

There are other passages I could cite, such as the commissioning of Paul and Barnabas, or the call of Peter to go preach to the Gentiles (something he was initially not all that comfortable with). But the point is that they were specifically led by the Holy Spirit to go to certain places but not to others. This is more than just knowing what sort of lifestyle to live or what kind of character to have. Do you not think such specific leadings are still necessary in the Christian walk today?

Blessings, and thanks for the response.
- H

 

[for_his_glory]

And so, what is the leading of the Holy Spirit, exactly? What does it look like? How is the leading of the Holy Spirit clearly distinguished from mere inner self-talk masquerading as "the Spirit's voice," or from a demonic counterfeit that does the same? What objective, authoritative basis does the Christian have for saying confidently, "The Holy Spirit led me in this direction"?

I know you did not ask me this question, but I would also like to answer it. In 1John 4:1-6 we are taught to test the spirits that are speaking to us. If what one says does not line up with scripture then they are only giving deceiving doctrines of a carnal mind with a carnal, not Spiritual, knowledge. Many say they are hearing the Holy Spirit speak to them, but we can clearly see the divisions that run rampant in many churches.

 

[Hidden In Him]

From Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but the one who does the will of the Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me "Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty WORKS on your name. And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me you workers of lawlessness."

This is a good verse on the subject, as it demonstrates that people can think they are being led by the Spirit and are being pleasing to "God" when in fact they are not. Now granted, I believe this passage was in reference to the Gnostics, who practiced magic rather than operate in gifts by the power of the Holy Spirit, but it would appear by this verse anyway that some of them may have been so deluded that they honestly thought they were serving the true Lord Jesus Christ when they weren't.

This represents an even deeper level of delusion but it is not strange to our time either. Many belong to Christian cults and appear to be 100% convinced that they are serving "Jehovah" when they in fact are doing nothing of the sort. They are deluded and actually fighting against Him. It's similar to the saying, "They will think they are doing God a service by killing you." Such was the level of spiritual deception the Pharisees in Jesus' time were under.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

This is a good verse on the subject, as it demonstrates that people can think they are being led by the Spirit and are being pleasing to "God" when in fact they are not. Now granted, I believe this passage was in reference to the Gnostics, who practiced magic rather than operate in gifts by the power of the Holy Spirit, but it would appear by this verse anyway that some of them may have been so deluded that they honestly thought they were serving the true Lord Jesus Christ when they weren't.

This represents an even deeper level of delusion but it is not strange to our time either. Many belong to Christian cults and appear to be 100% convinced that they are serving "Jehovah" when they in fact are doing nothing of the sort. They are deluded and actually fighting against Him. It's similar to the saying, "They will think they are doing God a service by killing you." Such was the level of spiritual deception the Pharisees in Jesus' time were under.

I think a wonderful example from the bible that you mention is in Acts 8 with Simon Magus. From Acts 8:13 "Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed." Yet Simon had to wait for Peter to lay hands on him to receive the Holy Ghost and offered him money in order to receive the Holy Ghost. From Acts 8:19-21 "saying give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him May your silver perish with you because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God."

So, whose heart is right before God? From Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick; who can understand it? Only God understands how an individual heart works hence it follows me must put all trust on our personal relationship with Christ for salvation. For, only a body whose heart is right before God can follow Christ and that body understands Christ is the head.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

me

we not me.

 

[Tenchi]

Please read the whole thread. You will find that many things mentioned have nothing to do with modern Christian thought but go back to the beginning of the church age. As for the matter of you being pleasantly surprised or not that is irrelevant to the truth of the conversation, just a subjective reaction on your part. I mention that since you seem so keen to avoid subjectivity.

Just to be clear: I never said that my being pleasantly surprised (or not) was relevant to the "truth of the conversation" in this thread. Your remarks in the quotation above are actually to an imagined assertion, not one made in my post, and suggest more about you, I think, than me.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Just to be clear: I never said that my being pleasantly surprised (or not) was relevant to the "truth of the conversation" in this thread. Your remarks in the quotation above are actually to an imagined assertion, not one made in my post, and suggest more about you, I think, than me.

Sure Tenchi, if that is what you think. FYI, whether my heart is right before God or not, only he knows. I am not here to plead my case with you all, just to suggest follow Christ and reason from scripture for all that men share. You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't and for those who have it it's possible to grieve the Holy Spirit.