Snatched From His Hand

[unred typo]

by AVBunyan on Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:37 am
[quote:a9083]unred typo wrote:Bubba, think about that statement. If I were on the ledge of a burning building, I couldn’t snatch myself off of it. I could jump. I could crawl out. I could roll out. I could climb out. But I couldn’t snatch myself out. Doesn’t mean I have to stay there, does it?

Please unred - I made it clear that I really didn't want this thread to be a debate over the issue - Start your own thread - We have heard all your arguments before - I'm trying to be nice here but the older I get the more cranky I get.

Re-read the OP.
"I do not want to debate OSAS - I just would like to know who you are if you willing to show your colors."

Thanks[/quote:a9083]

As you can see, I have been asked to start my own thread. So here it is. I don’t expect anyone will bite because no one wants to lose their security blanket, and OSAS is about the best one an uncommitted ‘believer’ can have. Too bad they aren’t hellfire proof. Well, you can’t take it with you anyways.

Bubba started this with this post:

quote by Bubba on Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:39 am
Yes, I believe that what the Lord begins in His children He brings to completion. In John 10:29,"...no one shall snatch them out of the Fathers hand", "no one" includes Satan, others, and ourselves.
Bubba

The topic here is that we can’t be snatched out of God’s hand by “Satan, others,†but does that include “ourselves.†as Bubba suggests. I think it is something that he read from a very reliable source that he trusts to write most of his ideas when he doesn’t have time to think for himself. We have all taken this route and sometimes it leads to a real dead end like this one.

If you would rather talk about something else, go ahead but I’m going to try to relate it to OSAS since it is just so durn ridiculously debatable. :

 

[AVBunyan]

I’ll bite – this is a great verse but here they are sitting in the hand which is good:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

But, I go further to Paul in the body of Christ where I am not just sitting in his hand I am part of his hand – Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. - big dispensational difference which unred and others have no understanding at all here.

No one was in Christ prior to Calvary – there was no body of Christ prior to Calvary except in God’s mind prior to Gen. 1:1 back in eternity.

Today in this age when a sinner is regenerated (Not baptized as Francis says) they are sealed and put in the literal body of Christ and since Christ is in heaven the saint is there also safe and secure in Christ at the right hand of the Father.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So – I have something better than John 10 where the context is Israel getting into an earthly kingdom.

BTW unred – the above truths are hidden from you so mock away. 8-)

 

[Veritas]

I would assume John 10:28 should be balanced with 2 Peter 2:20-22

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

 

[unred typo]

quote by AVBunyan on Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:32 am
I’ll bite – this is a great verse but here they are sitting in the hand which is good:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

But, I go further to Paul in the body of Christ where I am not just sitting in his hand I am part of his hand – Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. - big dispensational difference which unred and others have no understanding at all here.

You don’t have to talk down to us, Av. I understand the concept of the body illustration that is used to explain our oneness with the Son. The idea of being a body has to do with being submitted to his control and moving according to his spirit within you in cooperation with all the other members of the body. Remember how he said, “If thine hand offend thee, cut it off?â€Â

quote by AVBunyan No one was in Christ prior to Calvary – there was no body of Christ prior to Calvary except in God’s mind prior to Gen. 1:1 back in eternity.

Today in this age when a sinner is regenerated (Not baptized as Francis says) they are sealed and put in the literal body of Christ and since Christ is in heaven the saint is there also safe and secure in Christ at the right hand of the Father.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Your seat is secure as long as you continue in Christ. You want to say we can sit in heaven and dangle our feet in the sewer. That’s not biblical. Read
Ephesians 5:
11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever does make manifest is light.
14Wherefore he says, Awake you that sleeps, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.

Awake from sleep, arise from the dead and then Christ shall give you light. How does this fit into your paradigm?

quote by AVBunyan
So – I have something better than John 10 where the context is Israel getting into an earthly kingdom.

Easy to dismiss Jesus from effecting your theology, isn’t it.

quote by AVBunyan
BTW unred – the above truths are hidden from you so mock away.

I don’t know why you think that, Av. I believed and even taught them for 20+ years. In fact, you sound just like I used to. I believed those who added works to faith were the most despised by God who hated their filthy pride filled false righteousness. Now I understand how faith and works and Jesus’ teaching all fit together like fingers on a hand in a glove with no conflict. You, however, cannot see my point of view even if you tried. There is none so blind as he who will not see.
But thanks for responding. Maybe someone else will be able to benefit from this discussion.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Veritas on Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:00 pm
I would assume John 10:28 should be balanced with 2 Peter 2:20-22

You’d think so, wouldn’t you? I agree that John 10:28 should be balanced with 2 Peter 2:20-22. Balance doesn’t seem to be an issue with some people. They pile up all the verses that suit their doctrine and discard the piles that refute it. There is a way to join all the teachings of truth but truth must be your goal in doing so, otherwise, you just have a cunningly devised fable made up of bits of truth stuck together and used out of context.

 

[AVBunyan]

1.You don’t have to talk down to us, Av. I understand the concept of the body illustration that is used to explain our oneness with the Son.
2.Your seat is secure as long as you continue in Christ.

1. The body of Christ is not just an illustration - again you have displayed your ignorance in Ephesians.

2. Nowhere in Paul's epistles - You are trusting in "You" continuing - this is works - this end result is a lake of fire.

You do understand none of my responses to you are really for you - I understand 2 Cor. 4:3 and I Cor. 2:14 - I write so as to show others who may be reading our exchanges the contrast of grace vs, law/bondage/self-righteousness. You just do a great job of providing the false teaching so I can present the grace.

But I feel folks here have seen enough and should clearly see that one is trusting the shed blood of Christ alone while the other is trusting in their filthy rags while assuming the grace believer is not living a life of obedience because he believes he is secure.

You are the greatest display of self-righteousness I've ever encountered - you should be proud of yourself and I know you are.

Here is your verse:
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:

When you get to the great white throne you will stand there talking about your repentings, your obediences, your continuances, your faith, your everything else, etc. and the Lord is going to say, "Where is Christ in all that - depart from em - I never knew you!"

BTW - I've had my fill of you unred - you are back on Ignore.

 

[Heidi]

I would assume John 10:28 should be balanced with 2 Peter 2:20-22

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

So come up with an interpretation of that passage that does not contradict 1 Peter 1:4, Romans 8:1, and John 10:27-30 and you will have found the correct interpretation because scripture doesn't contradict itself.

 

[Veritas]

Heidi,

I don't think scripture contradicts itself either. And I believe it is usually meant to be read in a straightforward fashion (apart from Revelation and a few other prophetical books).

I do think it is possible for people to continually push God away. I think the reason it is difficult to iron out between OSAS and those who believe we can lose our salvation is because we have to think of everything on a timescale. God isn't limited to that. So for those that say they accept Christ at such and such a time... that may be good and healthy, but I believe it is for our own benifit. I believe God is able to see things on a wider scope of what "has,is,will" happen/ing. I think God warns us of falling away for our benefit because we are limited to the "now" and must endure time, as well as showing us that He has us securely in His hand.

 

[unred typo]

quote by AVBunyan on Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:36 am
[quote:6b559]unred typo wrote:1.You don’t have to talk down to us, Av. I understand the concept of the body illustration that is used to explain our oneness with the Son.
2.Your seat is secure as long as you continue in Christ.

1. The body of Christ is not just an illustration - again you have displayed your ignorance in Ephesians.[/quote:6b559]

Would you say you are a leg man or a tongue and cheek man, then? I might suggest what part you would be but it wouldn’t be the mouth so you wouldn’t agree. The ‘body of Christ’ is an illustration. You are a person, not really a part of an eye or a piece of Christ’s ear. As usual your confusion over metaphors and love of the enigmatic has caused you to miss the reality of the message.

quote by AVBunyan 2. Nowhere in Paul's epistles - You are trusting in "You" continuing - this is works - this end result is a lake of fire.

I see. By trusting in what Christ told us to do to inherit eternal life, I will be cast into the lake of fire, yet if I murder someone but continue to hold fast to the doctrine that Christ died for my sins and there is nothing I can do to change that, I will be saved. Wow. No wonder you can’t understand the true gospel.

quote by AVBunyan You do understand none of my responses to you are really for you - I understand 2 Cor. 4:3 and I Cor. 2:14 - I write so as to show others who may be reading our exchanges the contrast of grace vs, law/bondage/self-righteousness. You just do a great job of providing the false teaching so I can present the grace.

But I feel folks here have seen enough and should clearly see that one is trusting the shed blood of Christ alone while the other is trusting in their filthy rags while assuming the grace believer is not living a life of obedience because he believes he is secure.

The astute reader will see that one is believing that the blood covers sins past, present and future, without the sinner having to bother to repent or confess except for one heartfelt moment when they accepted Christ as their savior and were instantly born again, while the other is depending on the blood of Christ to remove sin as they repent, and confess them and continue on in their walk in love and good works of the faith commanded by Jesus Christ, their Lord and savior. They neither assume the grace believer is walking a life of sin nor do they judge whether any person is saved or not based on their stated beliefs, knowing that God himself will judge according to truth and their works.

quote by AVBunyan You are the greatest display of self-righteousness I've ever encountered - you should be proud of yourself and I know you are.

Here is your verse:
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:

I don’t really care what you or any man thinks of me. My verse in this regard is:
John 5:44
How can you believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that comes from God only?

Romans 2:6-7
( God, )Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:

quote by AVBunyan
When you get to the great white throne you will stand there talking about your repentings, your obediences, your continuances, your faith, your everything else, etc. and the Lord is going to say, "Where is Christ in all that - depart from em - I never knew you!"

I believe you are referring to the judgment in Matthew 7. Notice what it does not say:
“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that do good works.â€Â
This is what it does say:

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

You see the difference? They thought that teaching and casting out devils were wonderful works but then again, the Pharisees thought Jesus was a devil, and thought killing ‘infidels’ who believed in Christ or casting them out of their temples was doing God service. Jesus does not know them but on the other hand, he says those who hear his sayings AND DOES THEM, are built on the rock. We know who the rock is, don’t we, AV?

quote by AVBunyan
BTW - I've had my fill of you unred - you are back on Ignore.

That’s your problem, AV. I ‘m sorry you can’t hear what Jesus taught and that you put his words far from you, belonging to another dispensation, or another group of people.

John 8:
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
37I know that you are Abraham's seed; but you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you.
47He that is of God hears God's words: you therefore hear them not, because you are not of God.

 

[francisdesales]

Today in this age when a sinner is regenerated (Not baptized as Francis says) they are sealed and put in the literal body of Christ and since Christ is in heaven the saint is there also safe and secure in Christ at the right hand of the Father.

First, you dismiss Christ's words... You don't have to listen to Him "doctrinally"! Now, you cast aside Paul's words. I think I understand where your "theology" comes from...

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Romans 6:3-5

Paul asks "didn't you know?" I guess some Christians don't know they are "in Christ" once they are baptized into His Paschal Mystery, His death and resurrection. Sad... What other OBJECTIVE way do we have in that we KNOW we are "in Christ"?

Because you said so? Is that why so many OSAS people question their salvation? Is that why the OSAS people claim "he was never saved to begin with" when a so-called OSAS person decides to become an atheist???

The more I think about it, the more sickening this theology is. Toss aside Christ's teachings, twist Paul, and come up with a way to be saved based on wishful thinking alone.

I know I am ignored by you, but for anyone else contemplating this OSAS theology, know that it is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you claim to follow Christ, if He is your Lord and Savior, then read the Gospels and see what He says about being saved... Note He NEVER makes a mention about an altar call or anything resembling OSAS theology.

He DOES, however, talk a lot about repentance, conversion, obedience, and loving your neighbor. He ties salvation and eternal life to these things.

Regards

 

[Veritas]

Upon thinking about John 10:28 I've noticed that Jesus did not say that his sheep could not leave of their own accord; He said that no man could pluck them away.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Veritas on Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:15 pm
Upon thinking about John 10:28 I've noticed that Jesus did not say that his sheep could not leave of their own accord; He said that no man could pluck them away.

Exactly. Can’t argue with that obviously. It doesn’t stop some people but it does shut them up for a while. Mostly they crawl away and find a forum to post on that doesn’t allow any voice of reason to ripple their stagnant waters. Thanks for your thought here, Veritas.