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Solascripture

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Heidi

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Since the catholics here admit they don't use the bible as the sole word of God, then what book do they use? The Muslims use the Qu-ran. The Mormons use the Book of Mormon. The Jehova's Witnesses have their own bible. So what is the bible of the catholic church?

Whichever it is, they are virtually admitting that they don't believe that Jesus is the final authority on the truth because his words can only be found in the bible and they have rejected that as the final authority. So which book do the Catholics consider more authoratative than Christ' words in the bible? Thank you. :)
 
Since the catholics here admit they don't use the bible as the sole word of God, then what book do they use? The Muslims use the Qu-ran. The Mormons use the Book of Mormon. The Jehova's Witnesses have their own bible. So what is the bible of the catholic church?

Whichever it is, they are virtually admitting that they don't believe that Jesus is the final authority on the truth because his words can only be found in the bible and they have rejected that as the final authority. So which book do the Catholics consider more authoratative than Christ' words in the bible? Thank you.

People have already explained on other threads that the Catholic Church believes the Bible is the word of God. I don't know how to put it to you any clearer. If it weren't for the Catholic Church you would have no idea what the Bible even is.

Catholics believe in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (as do the Eastern Orthodox I might add). This was never questioned for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

As for the Bible, Protestants have removed the OT Deteurocanonical books form it. Catholics(as well as Orthodox) considered the 73 books of the Bible inerrant and have since the official canon was proclaimed at the Council of Carthage.
 
aj830 said:
People have already explained on other threads that the Catholic Church believes the Bible is the word of God. I don't know how to put it to you any clearer. If it weren't for the Catholic Church you would have no idea what the Bible even is.

Catholics believe in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (as do the Eastern Orthodox I might add). This was never questioned for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

As for the Bible, Protestants have removed the OT Deteurocanonical books form it. Catholics(as well as Orthodox) considered the 73 books of the Bible inerrant and have since the official canon was proclaimed at the Council of Carthage.

So then they do believe in solascripture. Is that correct?
 
So then they do believe in solascripture. Is that correct?

No. We believe in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. Sacred Scripture being the Bible and Sacred Tradition being the teaching of the Church throughout the years. Only the Bible is inspired in the since that the Holy Spirit wrote through the authors, Church Councils and ex cathedra statements are granted the charism of infalliblity by the Holy Spirit which prevents them from teaching error.
 
aj830 said:
No. We believe in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. Sacred Scripture being the Bible and Sacred Tradition being the teaching of the Church throughout the years. Only the Bible is inspired in the since that the Holy Spirit wrote through the authors, Church Councils and ex cathedra statements are granted the charism of infalliblity by the Holy Spirit which prevents them from teaching error.

Well considering that Colossians 2:8 tells us not to follow the hollow traditions of men, then the Catholics are not following the bible. It does no good to follow traditions that contradict the bible. Sorry. ;-)
 
Heidi said:
Well considering that Colossians 2:8 tells us not to follow the hollow traditions of men, then the Catholics are not following the bible. It does no good to follow traditions that contradict the bible. Sorry. ;-)

Like Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura?

Where in the Bible are those concepts? The first is EXPLICITLY DENIED in James 2, and Eph 4 gives us ANOTHER means of becoming PERFECT IN CHRIST and has NOTHING to say about the Bible. Thus, the Bible is NOT the sole source of faith.

Read those two chapters and get back to me about 'traditions of men'.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Like Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura?

Where in the Bible are those concepts? The first is EXPLICITLY DENIED in James 2, and Eph 4 gives us ANOTHER means of becoming PERFECT IN CHRIST and has NOTHING to say about the Bible. Thus, the Bible is NOT the sole source of faith.

Read those two chapters and get back to me about 'traditions of men'.

Regards

So then where do you find out what Jesus said? Anywhere else? Or isn't your faith in Jesus Christ? :o
 
Heidi said:
So then where do you find out what Jesus said? Anywhere else? Or isn't your faith in Jesus Christ? :o

I use the Bible to find out what He said, and I use the Apostolic Tradition when necessary to find out what He meant when He said it.

It is fairly obvious that we disagree on issues, and we both go to the Bible to prove our points. Now tell me, Heidi, can both of us be correct where we disagree? No. Then who is right? It is your opinion vs. mine - UNLESS, there is a divinely authorized body left behind with the promise that the Spirit would lead it to ALL truth. We find that in the Sacred Scriptures. We find that Jesus left an authorized body of men to lead (shepherd) the Church community. We do NOT find Jesus leaving a Bible.

Thus, I use the Bible, but I also read it with the Church, not in contradistinction to it. The intent of the Scriptures are very important, wouldn't you agree?

Regards
 
Another thing to throw out there. If I asked any person what they feel is the pillar and foundation of truth is....they would answer that saying that the "bible" is.
Remember that a pillar- holds things up
and a Foundation- provides protection and defense
but if you read the bible.....
1 Tim. 3:15- if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

So in this passage...we learn that the "Church" is the pillar and foundation of truth. So that means that the church upholds, protects and defends the truth. Well what church are we talking about here in the bible?? What church was there in 383 A.D. when the bible was written, although this passage was written 1st century. The Catholic Church.
 
Well considering that Colossians 2:8 tells us not to follow the hollow traditions of men, then the Catholics are not following the bible. It does no good to follow traditions that contradict the bible. Sorry.

Really? What about all the times we are told to hold fast to our traditions? The Bible can't contradict itself so there must be something you are missing there like maybe there are two types of traditions. There are traditions(lower case, traditions of men) and Tradition(capital, Sacred Tradition). You yourself follow a Tradition believe it or not, to an extent. If you believe in the Bible canon then you are trusting the power Christ gave the Catholic Church(even though you dont have the OT Deuterocanonicals). You also have a tradition(lower case) that is Sola Scriptura which didn't exist until the 1500.

I have asked this many times before and no Protestants have seemed to be able to tell me how I can know what the Bible is and what books are in it on my own.
 
Here is a great list of verses that Catholics use to show why we don't believe in Scripture "alone" I got it from http://www.scripturecatholic.com

Scripture
I. Scripture Alone Disproves "Scripture Alone"
Gen. to Rev. - Scripture never says that Scripture is the sole infallible authority for God's Word. Scripture also mandates the use of tradition. This fact alone disproves sola Scriptura.

Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:15 - those that preached the Gospel to all creation but did not write the Gospel were not less obedient to Jesus, or their teachings less important.

Matt. 28:20 - "observe ALL I have commanded," but, as we see in John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture. So there must be things outside of Scripture that we must observe. This disproves "Bible alone" theology.

Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to "preach," not write, and only three apostles wrote. The others who did not write were not less faithful to Jesus, because Jesus gave them no directive to write. There is no evidence in the Bible or elsewhere that Jesus intended the Bible to be sole authority of the Christian faith.

Luke 1:1-4 - Luke acknowledges that the faithful have already received the teachings of Christ, and is writing his Gospel only so that they "realize the certainty of the teachings you have received." Luke writes to verify the oral tradition they already received.

John 20:30; 21:25 - Jesus did many other things not written in the Scriptures. These have been preserved through the oral apostolic tradition and they are equally a part of the Deposit of Faith.

Acts 8:30-31; Heb. 5:12 - these verses show that we need help in interpreting the Scriptures. We cannot interpret them infallibly on our own. We need divinely appointed leadership within the Church to teach us.

Acts 15:1-14 – Peter resolves the Church’s first doctrinal issue regarding circumcision without referring to Scriptures.

Acts 17:28 – Paul quotes the writings of the pagan poets when he taught at the Aeropagus. Thus, Paul appeals to sources outside of Scripture to teach about God.

1 Cor. 5:9-11 - this verse shows that a prior letter written to Corinth is equally authoritative but not part of the New Testament canon. Paul is again appealing to a source outside of Scripture to teach the Corinthians. This disproves Scripture alone.

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone.

Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. There is nothing ever about obeying Scripture alone.

Col. 4:16 - this verse shows that a prior letter written to Laodicea is equally authoritative but not part of the New Testament canon. Paul once again appeals to a source outside of the Bible to teach about the Word of God.

1 Thess. 2:13 – Paul says, “when you received the word of God, which you heard from us..†How can the Bible be teaching first century Christians that only the Bible is their infallible source of teaching if, at the same time, oral revelation was being given to them as well? Protestants can’t claim that there is one authority (Bible) while allowing two sources of authority (Bible and oral revelation).

1 Thess. 3:10 - Paul wants to see the Thessalonians face to face and supply what is lacking. His letter is not enough.

2 Thess. 2:14 - Paul says that God has called us "through our Gospel." What is the fullness of the Gospel?

2 Thess. 2:15 - the fullness of the Gospel is the apostolic tradition which includes either teaching by word of mouth or by letter. Scripture does not say "letter alone." The Catholic Church has the fullness of the Christian faith through its rich traditions of Scripture, oral tradition and teaching authority (or Magisterium).

2 Thess 3:6 - Paul instructs us to obey apostolic tradition. There is no instruction in the Scriptures about obeying the Bible alone (the word "Bible" is not even in the Bible).

1 Tim. 3:14-15 - Paul prefers to speak and not write, and is writing only in the event that he is delayed and cannot be with Timothy.

2 Tim. 2:2 - Paul says apostolic tradition is passed on to future generations, but he says nothing about all apostolic traditions being eventually committed to the Bible.

2 Tim. 3:14 - continue in what you have learned and believed knowing from whom you learned it. Again, this refers to tradition which is found outside of the Bible.

James 4:5 - James even appeals to Scripture outside of the Old Testament canon ("He yearns jealously over the spirit which He has made...")

2 Peter 1:20 - interpreting Scripture is not a matter of one's own private interpretation. Therefore, it must be a matter of "public" interpretation of the Church. The Divine Word needs a Divine Interpreter. Private judgment leads to divisions, and this is why there are 30,000 different Protestant denominations.

2 Peter 3:15-16 - Peter says Paul's letters are inspired, but not all his letters are in the New Testament canon. See, for example, 1 Cor. 5:9-10; Col. 4:16. Also, Peter's use of the word "ignorant" means unschooled, which presupposes the requirement of oral apostolic instruction that comes from the Church.

2 Peter 3:16 - the Scriptures are difficult to understand and can be distorted by the ignorant to their destruction. God did not guarantee the Holy Spirit would lead each of us to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. But this is what Protestants must argue in order to support their doctrine of sola Scriptura. History and countless divisions in Protestantism disprove it.

1 John 4:1 - again, God instructs us to test all things, test all spirits. Notwithstanding what many Protestants argue, God's Word is not always obvious.

1 Sam. 3:1-9 - for example, the Lord speaks to Samuel, but Samuel doesn't recognize it is God. The Word of God is not self-attesting.

1 Kings 13:1-32 - in this story, we see that a man can't discern between God's word (the commandment "don't eat") and a prophet's erroneous word (that God had rescinded his commandment "don't eat"). The words of the Bible, in spite of what many Protestants must argue, are not always clear and understandable. This is why there are 30,000 different Protestant churches and one Holy Catholic Church.

Gen. to Rev. - Protestants must admit that knowing what books belong in the Bible is necessary for our salvation. However, because the Bible has no "inspired contents page," you must look outside the Bible to see how its books were selected. This destroys the sola Scriptura theory. The canon of Scripture is a Revelation from God which is necessary for our salvation, and which comes from outside the Bible. Instead, this Revelation was given by God to the Catholic Church, the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
 
Apostolic_Believer wrote:

This is why there are 30,000 different Protestant churches and one Holy Catholic Church.

re earlier comment by Biblecatholic:

answer to #1 please tell me your not serious, which interpretation do you lead them to? there are so many, whats more like traditions of men something that stays the same or something that constantly changes and ends up being broken by men into 55000 denominations.

Stranger wrote:

While the figures below may not be accurate - they give some indication of the composition of Protestantism. There are of course more 'denominations' than those listed but what parameters are used to arive at 55,000 denominations? After all a house divided against itself cannot stand. That is the unstated assertion of the 55,000 Protestant denominations when compared with the asserted one Catholic Church.


Summary worldwide:

Catholic 968,000,000
Protestant 395,867,000
Other 275,583,000
Orthodox 217,948,000
Anglicans 70,530,000

---------------------------------------------------
Main Stream Protestant adherents (shown in green)
---------------------------------------------------
Pentecostal 105,000,000
Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational 75,000,000
Baptist 70,000,000
Methodist 70,000,000
Adventist 12,000,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000
---------------------------------------------------

Anglican 73,000,000
Lutheran 64,000,000

from: http://www.godweb.org/Christianfamilies.htm

Note: Lutheran and Anglican churches are sometimes listed separately from Protestant ones.

Based on the above figures one could say that about 85% of the world's Protestants are found in eight mainstream denominations, which also divide into smaller streams as you go upstream. . . But to arrive at 55,000 denominations (?) surely this gives a distorted view of the Protestant movement.

Now to address the Catholic denominations:

A religious denomination (also simply denomination) is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination

As lifestyle reflects our 'interpretation' of doctrine it does so at the level of doctrine to which we are committed. Doctrine to which we are not committed has not this affect. The outworking of this can be seen amongst Catholics in the following way. To use an illustration: the monastic orders of the Catholic church and their interpretation of the Gospel are drastically different to the way the Gospel is understood in a downtown Catholic church in New York! Yet monastic orders exist in the US do they not? If these are not examples of 'denominations' what are they? So the questions can be asked:

How many denominations are there in the Catholic church?

By what name are these 'denominations' known in Catholic vernacular?
 
hey stranger, there is only one catholic church the orthodox are technically part of our church since they have valid sacraments but they are in schism. there aren't many true anglicans anymore and i cant remember how there looked at but i think some are looked at as there in schism but many are looked at as not. not forsure

protestantism would be looked at as ,lets take baptist ,there thousands of different types of baptist churches. and the same goes with all the big denominations each church that is teaching their own doctrine has become a different denomination.and really probably as many physical protestant churches you have is probably a more accurate number of how many denominations
 
francisdesales said:
I use the Bible to find out what He said, and I use the Apostolic Tradition when necessary to find out what He meant when He said it.

It is fairly obvious that we disagree on issues, and we both go to the Bible to prove our points. Now tell me, Heidi, can both of us be correct where we disagree? No. Then who is right? It is your opinion vs. mine - UNLESS, there is a divinely authorized body left behind with the promise that the Spirit would lead it to ALL truth. We find that in the Sacred Scriptures. We find that Jesus left an authorized body of men to lead (shepherd) the Church community. We do NOT find Jesus leaving a Bible.

Thus, I use the Bible, but I also read it with the Church, not in contradistinction to it. The intent of the Scriptures are very important, wouldn't you agree?

Regards

Oh, so you yourself have no clue what Jesus means. If that's true, then how can you have Jesus as your one teacher if you're filtering his words through another? :o But I'm finally glad that a Catholic admitted this becaue this is the crux of their problem.

As 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us, the man without the spirit can't understand God. So he has to ask others to interpret it for him. But those with the Spirit have no problem understanding the bible because the words in it are very simple. But the man without the spirit simply doesn't believe the bible. If he did, then he would believe matthew 1:25 which is so easy a child can understand it: 'BUt he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son." Thos words are as easy as; "But he didn't eat desert until he finished the main course."

But the Catholic clergy has brainwashed its congregation into believing that they cannot understand the bible without the clergy. That's what all cult leaders do. The cult leaders don't want their followers to understand the bible so they tell them that only they can interpret the bible for them.

And that is why the catholic clergy can cbrainwash their followers into beleving that Mary was a virgin all her life or was born sinless wich isn't in the bible. The tell their congregation that only they know the truth which is again what all cult leaders do. They use fear and guilt to keep their congregation from ever disagreeing with the pope even though the pope disagrees with Christ's words all the time as all cult leaders do.

So read the bible on your own and ask the Holy Spirit to give you faith to believe it. If you had that faith, then you wouldn't need to go to the catholic clergy to tell you what the bible means. That's dangerous.
 
Heidi,
In general all we need is the Holy Spirit to regenerate us to a understanding of our sins and then to a knowledge of Jesus (Ephesians 2:1-9) this is true. Yet, not to defend the sacradotal system of Catholics, but, I for one have needed the Body of Christ to help me understand difficult passages. I believe God has placed individuals in the Church through out it's history to help us with our sanctification. Thus the need for Elders, parents, Sunday school teachers and the countless commentaries.
In Christ love, GMS
 
Heidi said:
As 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us, the man without the spirit can't understand God. So he has to ask others to interpret it for him. But those with the Spirit have no problem understanding the bible because the words in it are very simple. But the man without the spirit simply doesn't believe the bible. If he did, then he would believe matthew 1:25 which is so easy a child can understand it: 'BUt he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son." Thos words are as easy as; "But he didn't eat desert until he finished the main course."

.

why does your church have seminaries,sunday school, bible study ,if the bible is so easy to understand. as you say all you have to do is pray to the Holy Spirit and WAMO you know everything
 
biblecatholic said:
why does your church have seminaries,sunday school, bible study ,if the bible is so easy to understand. as you say all you have to do is pray to the Holy Spirit and WAMO you know everything

Understanding and 'knowing everything' are two seperate things.

I believe the basics of the Christian faith are easy to understand, and one is able to understand them through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Understanding and 'knowing everything' are two seperate things.

I believe the basics of the Christian faith are easy to understand, and one is able to understand them through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

alonevoice could you clarify "sola scriptura" for me please. most of my discussions with people who believe this explain to me that it means scripture alone and nothing else. everything i have read says the same thing (which was written by protestants) now i do have a friend who is a mix of pentecostal,baptist and she talks about tradition as the lense we start with looking at scripture. doesn't the original meaning of sola scripture mean scripture alone? are there a lot of different schools of thought? or is there a consensus across denominational boundaries ?
 
Biblecatholic,
This article in part by Dr. Robert Godfrey may help you underestand what most Protestants believe:
"In spite of the difficulty of this undertaking, I am eager to join that historic train of Protestant apologists to defend the doctrine that the Scripture alone is our ultimate religious authority. I believe that it can be shown that this position is the clear position of Scripture itself. And I hope that, by the grace of God, those committed to the Roman doctrine of tradition will come to see the tragic error of denigrating the sufficiency and perspicuity of God’s own inspired Word.

Let me begin with certain clarifications so as not to be misunderstood. I am not arguing that all truth is to be found in the Bible, or that the Bible is the only form in which the truth of God has come to His people. I am not arguing that every verse in the Bible is equally clear to every reader. Nor am I arguing that the church  both the people of God and the ministerial office  is not of great value and help in understanding the Scripture. As William Whitaker stated in his noble work: “For we also say that the church is the interpreter of Scripture, and that the gift of interpretation resides only in the church: but we deny that it pertains to particular persons, or is tied to any particular see or succession of men.â€Â1

The Protestant position, and my position, is that all things necessary for salvation and concerning faith and life are taught in the Bible clearly enough for the ordinary believer to find it there and understand.

The position I am defending certainly is what is taught in the Bible itself. For example, Deuteronomy 31:9 states: “Moses wrote down this law. . . .†Moses instructed the people by writing down the law and then ordering that it be read to them “so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law,†Deuteronomy 31:9, 12.

Moses declared to all Israel: “Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you, they are your life,†Deuteronomy 32:46, 47.

Notice the clear elements in these passages:

The Word of which Moses spoke was written.
The people can and must listen to it and learn it.
In this Word they can find life.
The people do not need any additional institution to interpret the Word. The priests, prophets, and scribes of Israel certainly function to help the people ministerially. But the Word alone was sufficient for salvation. The prophets, who were indeed inspired, came very much in the spirit of Micah who said, “He has shown you, O man, what is good,†Micah 6:8. The function of the prophets and priests was not to add to or even clarify the law; rather, they applied it to the people who were sinfully indifferent.

If this principle of the sufficiency and clarity of the Word is true in the Old Testament, we can assume that it is all the more true in the New. The New Testament gloriously fulfills what the Old Testament promises. But we do not have to assume it; rather, the New Testament makes clear that the character of Scripture is to be sufficient and clear. One example of that is found in 2 Timothy 3, 4. Here Paul writes to his younger brother in the faith, Timothy. He writes that Timothy  who was instructed in the faith by his mother and grandmother  has also learned all about Paul’s teaching (3:10). Timothy has been mightily helped by all sorts of oral teaching, some of it apostolic. Yet Paul writes these words to Timothy:

And indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. (2 Timothy 3:12; 4:5)

You see, Paul reminds Timothy that the Scriptures are able to make him wise unto salvation in Christ Jesus (3:15). He teaches that the Scriptures are useful for teaching, reproof (rebuking), correcting, and training in righteousness (3:16). Because the Scriptures have this character, they thoroughly equip the man of God for every good work (3:17). So Paul tells Timothy that he must preach this Word, even though the time is coming when people will not want to hear it, but rather will want teachers to suit their fancy, who will instruct them in myths rather than the truth of the Word (4:1-4).

The force and clarity of the Apostle’s teaching here are striking. In spite of the rich oral teaching Timothy had, he is to preach the Scriptures because those Scriptures give him clearly all that he needs for wisdom and preparation to instruct the people of God in faith and all good works. The Scripture makes him wise for salvation, and equips him with everything he needs for doing every good work required of the preacher of God. The sufficiency and clarity of the Word are taught in this one section of Scripture over and over again. John Chrysostom paraphrased the meaning of Paul’s words to Timothy this way:“You have Scripture for a master instead of me; from there you can learn whatever you would know.â€Â..."
 
biblecatholic said:
alonevoice could you clarify "sola scriptura" for me please. most of my discussions with people who believe this explain to me that it means scripture alone and nothing else. everything i have read says the same thing (which was written by protestants) now i do have a friend who is a mix of pentecostal,baptist and she talks about tradition as the lense we start with looking at scripture. doesn't the original meaning of sola scripture mean scripture alone? are there a lot of different schools of thought? or is there a consensus across denominational boundaries ?

When I use Sola Scriptura - I mean that the Bible alone is the benchmark, rule, standard, by which all doctrine and beliefs should be judged/measured.

What I believe should have at it's root - Scripture. That is where it should be grounded - not in the council of men, but in the council of the Written Word.
 

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