The burden of proof

[Malachi]

Can you explain to me why most if not all christians invalidate any faith all ex christians ever had. Is it because if they validated it it would give credence to there current lack of faith.

If "most" Christians invalidate the faith of anyone ("ex-Christians for example) they are doing what they should not be doing -- determining somone else's relationship to Christ. That is strictly God's business, since only God knows hearts, and He knows the innermost thoughts. If those same Christians have "a lack of faith", once again, only God knows the truth.

But coming back to the term "ex-Christian" -- that is simply not applicable to one who has been truly born again. The New Birth is supernatural, and the one who has been "born of God" knows that for a fact.

If a person "turns away" from Christianity or Christ, it could well be that (a) they were never truly converted, (b) they were converted but Christians did not bother to disciple them, (c) they had some horrid experience with a church or an individual Christian and thus became bitter and walked away from everything.

But if (b) and (c) are applicable, then that person can never become an "ex-Christian". The one who was never truly saved could turn to Islam or some other religion because Christ was never within. But God "keeps" or preservers His own children regardless, and somehow God would bring that person back to a proper relationship with Christ.

 

[Jesse]

Ok so you christians say bible god has to be an invisible spirit who lives in the hearts of all his believers, you also say he intercedes on occasions testing mankind to weed out who is the tare's and the wheat. So in your mind bible god is careful not to reveal his presence or he would screw up his plain of salvation. But then when you are confronted by the burden of proof you are quick to point out the order and design of the universe as absolute proof of bible god.

But may I ask,

What specifics does the bible actually show and demonstrate, that's evident that it is bible god who designed all we see in our known universe.

I only read this post, so if it's been repeated, just ignore. lol

Are you seeking absolute proof of His existence?

If you are, you won't be able to "see" Him, unless you have faith in him. Faith is that which we can not see, but the weird thing about it is, we can't see without it. Through faith is when we can learn from Him and as we learn, he opens our eyes to the truth so that we can see Him all around us.

 

[r3alink]

If "most" Christians invalidate the faith of anyone ("ex-Christians for example) they are doing what they should not be doing -- determining somone else's relationship to Christ. That is strictly God's business, since only God knows hearts, and He knows the innermost thoughts. If those same Christians have "a lack of faith", once again, only God knows the truth.

But coming back to the term "ex-Christian" -- that is simply not applicable to one who has been truly born again. The New Birth is supernatural, and the one who has been "born of God" knows that for a fact.

If a person "turns away" from Christianity or Christ, it could well be that (a) they were never truly converted, (b) they were converted but Christians did not bother to disciple them, (c) they had some horrid experience with a church or an individual Christian and thus became bitter and walked away from everything.

But if (b) and (c) are applicable, then that person can never become an "ex-Christian". The one who was never truly saved could turn to Islam or some other religion because Christ was never within. But God "keeps" or preservers His own children regardless, and somehow God would bring that person back to a proper relationship with Christ.

So what do you suggest, if I can only be born again by gods will then not even my own willingness to have faith can force gods hand to baptize me any faster.

 

[reba]

The circle games people play are comical .

 

[jasonc]

A friend I must fear and serve, that's not a friendship that's a totalitarian relationship.

ok, we do that with the government. a cop friend can be our worst enemy when we break the law. or our best friend when we are victim. but there is much more to the God of the bible. how about what He called Abraham. a friend. Jesus also said that about us that believe.

 

[Jesse]

So what do you suggest, if I can only be born again by gods will then not even my own willingness to have faith can force gods hand to baptize me any faster.

If you are claiming you used to be a Christian, it doesn't sound like you were.

This post is completely foreign to most of us who are christian.

 

[r3alink]

I only read this post, so if it's been repeated, just ignore. lol

Are you seeking absolute proof of His existence?

If you are, you won't be able to "see" Him, unless you have faith in him. Faith is that which we can not see, but the weird thing about it is, we can't see without it. Through faith is when we can learn from Him and as we learn, he opens our eyes to the truth so that we can see Him all around us.

Obviously something has happened to you mentally to see god everywhere, but don't people of other faiths see god everywhere? Obviously something has happened to them mentally too.

 

[Jesse]

Obviously something has happened to you mentally to see god everywhere, but don't people of other faiths see god everywhere? Obviously something has happened to them mentally too.

No, I don't think people of other religions see their god everywhere, because 1). their god doesn't exist.

Nothing mentally for me as God has placed in each of us the Truth about him, so that man is without excuse when we try to deny him.

 

[jasonc]

Obviously something has happened to you mentally to see god everywhere, but don't people of other faiths see god everywhere? Obviously something has happened to them mentally too.

since I came from a jw background. I believed Is saw Jehovah everywhere. doesn't mean I was right. just that each faith has enough truth that its a lie.

 

[r3alink]

No, I don't think people of other religions see their god everywhere, because 1). their god doesn't exist.

Nothing mentally for me as God has placed in each of us the Truth about him, so that man is without excuse when we try to deny him.

What you're saying is their deluded when they see god everywhere, so you at least know people can be deluded in seeing god everywhere.

 

[r3alink]

since I came from a jw background. I believed Is saw Jehovah everywhere. doesn't mean I was right. just that each faith has enough truth that its a lie.

So you also know the ability the mind has to convince someone of a lie.

 

[jasonc]

So you also know the ability the mind has to convince someone of a lie.

both, satan and our flesh via the mind can lie to us.

 

[Jesse]

What you're saying is their deluded when they see god everywhere, so you at least know people can be deluded in seeing god everywhere.

Nope, not what I said.

I said there is only One God, people see His creation everywhere, but make claims the One True God did not create it. Christians KNOW who created creation and see it everywhere - even you see His creation everywhere. How can someone not see it?

 

[Jesse]

So you also know the ability the mind has to convince someone of a lie.

Of course, satan has convinced you and your mind that God really doesn't exist, your mind is now lying to you.

 

[Willie T]

Nope, not what I said.

I said there is only One God, people see His creation everywhere, but make claims the One True God did not create it. Christians KNOW who created creation and see it everywhere - even you see His creation everywhere. How can someone not see it?

Some honestly may not see it. I once knew a man who wanted to fight me because I said we did not actually create our own children (him, included). He knew what I meant, but still blindly insisted that it was power within himself that split the first cell, and made that embryo develop into a child.

 

[jasonc]

Some honestly may not see it. I once knew a man who wanted to fight me because I said we did not actually create our own children (him, included). He knew what I meant, but still blindly insisted that it was power within himself that split the first cell, and made that embryo develop into a child.

even though im a creationist young earth type one each. its a mystery how life comes from mans methods of sex.yes we know the process but still from two becomes one person who has the nature of the parents and yet his own. the soul cant be recorded and we cant observe it either.

 

[Jesse]

Some honestly may not see it. I once knew a man who wanted to fight me because I said we did not actually create our own children (him, included). He knew what I meant, but still blindly insisted that it was power within himself that split the first cell, and made that embryo develop into a child.

I was just thinking that if you look at a tree, then you've seen God's creation regardless if you believe He created it or not.

A person's belief doesn't change what is true is along the lines of what I was saying.

 

[Edward]

Ok so you christians say bible god has to be an invisible spirit who lives in the hearts of all his believers, you also say he intercedes on occasions testing mankind to weed out who is the tare's and the wheat. So in your mind bible god is careful not to reveal his presence or he would screw up his plain of salvation. But then when you are confronted by the burden of proof you are quick to point out the order and design of the universe as absolute proof of bible god.

But may I ask,

What specifics does the bible actually show and demonstrate, that's evident that it is bible god who designed all we see in our known universe.

Everything that you ask for is in the bible. But it doesn't come down to one verse, and tada there's your proof. It takes a bit of study and diligence to not only read the bible, but to be led of God while doing so.

God doesn't want us to examine His "proofs" and then decide to believe. He wants a 180° from that. First we choose to decide that we will put our faith into Him and trust Him. Then we, seek God through His word. Study and show ourselves approved, and to submit our will to Him in faith. It's all about faith is why He does it this way. He wants us to have faith in Him.

Then, He will reveal things to us and begin leading us and teaching us. Some for our conscious mind and some for our spirit directly. The Lord grants understanding to us over a period of time, while we are yet seeking Him and trying to understand His ways and will. There is a promise of a renewed mind in Romans 12:2

Romans 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God./(KJV)

And again in Ephesians...

Ephesians 4:23
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;/(KJV)

Some may think that this happens automatically, when one is born again, but it doesn't. Look at the wording, He's telling us to do it, we have a part in this transformation and must pursue it. If we don't, we stagnate. He tells us exactly what to do. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all this will be added unto you. Be diligent. Search the scriptures daily, pray, Praise Him and seek. Knock. Ok, here I am Lord...The bible says that seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened unto you. He will not let us down in any way. He wants that spark of faith first, give Him a chance even without total understanding.

I can attest to this, having, over time, He has proved it to me to be true. My experience is that He always helps, seems to be always last minute, but never late...! Somehow. But I know it's true within me. And that didn't come out of the Bible. I just know it. Now when I step outside...His creation just screams creation to me. His fingerprints are everywhere! It has absolutely nothing to do with intellectualism. Which is why we are told that unless we become as little children, we will not enter heaven. We have to let Him teach us, and to reveal to us, who He really is, and not who we have imagined Him to be in our minds, or through teachings of religion or tradition. It's all very personal and very faith based. It requires not leaning upon our own understanding...at all (this is difficult to do!), but we've been lied to about how to live our entire lives. So erase the chalkboard and start again.

 

[Obadiah]

Closed for review.

 

[Obadiah]

I will start by pointing to our Terms of Service section 2.1 which states in part: “This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.” Also take to heart ToS 2.2: “No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed: You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Discussion of these doctrines are is fine, as long as the beliefs foreign to Christianity (as defined above) are not actively promoted or held in balance with orthodox Christianity.”

I strongly recommend that these two sections in particular be taken seriously. With that said, I will first point out that it is a very old and also still very current convention of the English language that when writing the word “God” to refer to the Judaic/Christian God, the word will be capitalized. Non-capitalized use of the word “god” is for referring to non-Judaic/Christian gods. For a person who is fluent in English and especially has a background in religion of any kind to continually refer to the Christian God as “god” or other non-normal ways will be considered an act of hostility and disrespect. This same convention of capitalization applies to the word Bible as well.

Also, if someone refers to Christians as having conditions such as being delusional or needing to have other mental conditions in order to have faith in God, this will also be considered a hostile act under ToS 2.1. So let’s be careful in how we say things so as not to do that. Declared non-Christians are welcome in our forum but must follow our Terms of Service just as Christians must.

Further violations will be dealt with as per the ToS.

Obadiah.



The thread is re-opened.