The Mystery of works with salvation: Those included vs those excluded

[RBDERRICK]

No works of man by man and for man alone, can save nor justify any man with God, lest we should boast. Only the works of God done by man for Jesus Christ alone, can save and justify any man with God, that gives Him the glory.

Nowhere does the Bible ever say we are saved through faith, and not by works, nor of works. That is a false quote cutting short the rest of Scripture. Nowhere does the Bible excluded any and all works from being saved and justified by Christ.

The Bible however does plainly say we are saved and justified by works. And only adds that no one is saved nor justified by faith alone, without any works.

Everywhere the Bible excludes works from being saved and justified by God, those works are always specifically identified apart from the works we are justified by.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2)

The verse does not end as some write it, not of works. (As being any works at all.)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3)

None of these verses stop at works, but they all go on to identify the kind of works they are.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

They are the works of man without God, without the love of God from the heart. They are works of man's own will, that can be boasted of, whether by law, righteousness, sacrifice, or philanthropy.

The mystery of the gospel of faith is that without God, all men's works alone are in vain toward being saved and justified by God through Jesus Christ. We can do nothing of our own selves through our own faith and good will toward man, to ever be worthy of being justified with God, lest any man should have just cause to boast.

The only works included in being saved and justified by Christ, are the works of God done by man through the faith and love of Jesus Christ:

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. (Phil 4)

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2)

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1 Cor 15)

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; (Col 3)

As we see, the works we do only for Jesus' sake, are not to even be claimed as our own, much less boasting of them. They are not our works we do, but only the Lord's by Him, so much so that we can give Him all the glory and say 'Not I', but Christ in me.

These are the only works, that justify a man with God in Christ Jesus. All other works of our own will by law, righteousness, sacrifice, and philanthropy, than man can indeed boast of, are excluded.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The only works included in being saved and justified by God, are done by the grace and charity of God through the faith of Jesus, where no man can boast, but only give glory to the Lord.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
The works of Abraham were his own by faith, both good and bad, until he had offered up Isaac for one cause alone: Because His Lord God told him too.

There was nothing of Abraham's own will in the work, any more than Jesus had desire to be crucified on a cross. It was all God's work that Abraham did, that justifed him with God, and as with Jesus' work on the cross, gave glory to God by obedience from the heart.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) (Rom 9)
This only says the babes had done neither good nor evil, but they had done works by struggling within the womb, after which works God declared His choice for Jacob. And being babes, the election was not of any works Jacob could boast of.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is plain contradiction to teach not being justified by any works, and it is absurdity to believe God excludes His own works, from saving and juistifying us.

Afterall, God judges us by the works we do to justify or condemn us.

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. (Col 3)

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: (1 peter 1)

And we see the only Christians trying to preach themselves being saved and justified apart from any works they do, are also them that trumpet their continued sinning in life, and even declare no Christians can do all the works of God, without doing their own righteousness.

And then they go on to preach an unjust judgment of God, who has respect of persons for their own faith, and so does not condemn them for their sinful works the same as others, that 'believe not'.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

No works of man by man and for man alone, can save nor justify any man with God, lest we should boast. Only the works of God done by man for Jesus Christ alone, can save and justify any man with God, that gives Him the glory.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Works, either "secular" or "religious", are evidence of salvation. You don't work to get saved, you work BECAUSE you're saved. You don't work to earn your salvation, you work to SHOW your salvation. That's a big difference between slave mentality and free man mentality, and this is not very plainly stated anywhere in the bible, it's a conclusion you have to reach by yourself.

 

[Tenchi]

Only the works of God done by man for Jesus Christ alone, can save and justify any man with God, that gives Him the glory.

Nowhere does the Bible ever say we are saved through faith, and not by works, nor of works.

???

Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The Bible however does plainly say we are saved and justified by works. And only adds that no one is saved nor justified by faith alone, without any works.

No, it doesn't. Not anywhere in the NT after the Atoning work of Christ are we told that we are justified by works. We are told exactly the opposite, in fact. See above.

Everywhere the Bible excludes works from being saved and justified by God, those works are always specifically identified apart from the works we are justified by.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2)

The verse does not end as some write it, not of works. (As being any works at all.)

??? I have no idea what you're talking about here...

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This bit of Ephesians 2 I've quoted here ends with Paul pointing out those who are not saved by works but by grace, through faith in Christ, are saved for good works, or unto good works, as some translations put it. They are saved entirely apart from any good deeds done, but, once saved, they ought then to "work out their salvation," fully expressing their faith by corresponding action (James 2:14-26). Paul, however, does NOT ever say one is saved by good works. Good works only manifest faith and salvation, they don't ever achieve it.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3)

None of these verses stop at works, but they all go on to identify the kind of works they are.

??? Again, I don't understand what you're saying here. All the verses you've cited rule out works as contributing to one's salvation. That salvation accomplished by grace, through faith, will lead to, or be expressed by, good works, but it will not be obtained by good works.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

This isn't speaking of born-again believers, the saved, at all.

They are the works of man without God, without the love of God from the heart. They are works of man's own will, that can be boasted of, whether by law, righteousness, sacrifice, or philanthropy.

Okay. This doesn't negate the plain and repeated declaration of Scripture, though, that good works don't obtain salvation.

The only works included in being saved and justified by Christ, are the works of God done by man through the faith and love of Jesus Christ:

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. (Phil 4)

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2)

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1 Cor 15)

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; (Col 3)

These verses all describe the effect, the result, of salvation not the means of being saved. Not one of them says anything like, "And by the works of God, done by Man, one shall be saved."

These are the only works, that justify a man with God in Christ Jesus.

Nope. There is only ONE Savior, who is Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Acts 4:12
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

[for_his_glory]

To say faith without works is dead is the same as saying faith without love is dead for the works we do unto the Lord are our labor of love for others as in Matthew 25:34-40. It's the same labor of love Christ did for us. Faith is action and if it has no fruit it is a false faith. James is not speaking about one who has faith, but one who claims to have faith. It's like giving lip service, but the heart is empty and void of God. Just because one claims to have faith doesn't mean they do, especially if there is no fruit to judge in them as that is how we judge one another, Matthew 7:15-23. We are saved by faith (Christ Jesus) through that of Gods grace (favor) as we can not earn it, but confess it.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[RBDERRICK]

and this is not very plainly stated anywhere in the bible, it's a conclusion you have to reach by yourself.

Thnak you for clarifying the truth, that this is your own belief alone, and not found in doctrine of Christ written in the Bible.

I agree.

The gospel of faith with works, that I show by Scriptures, is all I'm interested in. Thanks anyway.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 2Co 3:12

I stick to what is plainly written by God,a nd not by anything He never says for any child to read.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Exactly. God never preaches against any and all works, but only man's works of his own without Christ. The works of our own will that we can boast of by law alone, or our own righteousness, sacrifice, and good will, are excluded and have no part in being saved and justified by Christ.

Only those repenting of doing our own will for Jesus' sake, can be saved and justified by doing the will of God in Christ Jesus.

And the world is passing away, and the lust thereof: but he that is doing the will of God is abiding for ever. 1Jo 2:17

No, it doesn't. Not anywhere in the NT after the Atoning work of Christ are we told that we are justified by works.

Since I know you've already read James 2, then I'll not bother quoting it to somone wilfully saying the opposite.

This bit of Ephesians 2 I've quoted here ends with Paul pointing out those who are not saved by works

Already exposed this lie. God never says this alone, but always includes those works no man is saved nor justified by.

God never excludes His own good works in Christ Jesus from His salvation and justification.

Okay. This doesn't negate the plain and repeated declaration of Scripture, though, that good works don't obtain salvation.

I'm not sure if you have read all the Scripture pertaining to salvation by Christ, so I'll quote these once to show another contradiction of your own ideas:

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:8

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 1Co 9:24

And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 2Ti 2:5

These verses all describe the effect, the result, of salvation not the means of being saved. Not one of them says anything like, "And by the works of God, done by Man, one shall be saved."

Shall be justified by in James 2. There is no salvation of Christ, without being justified by Christ by doing His works from a pure heart.

Such works cannot be boasted of by man, but only glorified by God, and judged worthy of walking with Him and the Lamb forever in white.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. Rev 3:4

For many are called, but few are chosen. Mat 22:14

The only faith that saves is the faith of Jesus, and is the gift of God to them that repent of there own works for His sake.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

The faith you are preaching apart any works at all, is of your own self, and dead to God.

It's not the saving faith of Jesus given to the newborn pure of heart, but is only a faith of one's own making and imagined in an old heart of lust.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:12

Onlly the faith of Jesus saves the soul to do the works of God.

Jesus is never without His faith, nor is His faith ever without His works: His justification is never without His works done by His faith.

No works of man done without the faith of Jesus, has any part in being saved and justified by Him. All such works of man's faith and will alone, are dead to God.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:1

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:14

 

[Tenchi]

Exactly. God never preaches against any and all works, but only man's works of his own without Christ.

??? None of these passages say anything about this distinction you're making here. None of them are qualified by any statement to the effect that salvation is obtained by works - but only of a God-originating sort. This qualification is of your own making which is why it contradicts the passages I cited that explicitly exclude good works as a means of salvation.

Only those repenting of doing our own will for Jesus' sake, can be saved and justified by doing the will of God in Christ Jesus.

No one is justified - by which I mean saved and made a "new creature in Christ" - by "doing the will of God in Christ Jesus." It is by grace alone through faith alone that Salvation - who is Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2;8-9; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:11-13) - reconciles us to God. Jesus has perfectly satisfied all of God's holy justice forever and there is nothing more to be done to complete Christ's atoning sacrifice for us (Hebrews 9-10:21).

Since I know you've already read James 2, then I'll not bother quoting it to somone wilfully saying the opposite.

It is you who is contradicting God's word, putting James's words above the explicit and repeated denial of Scripture that works contribute to a person's salvation.

James 2:18-24
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James begins this section of verses by distinguishing his faith from that of others by how it manifests in what he does. His belief in Christ results in corresponding action. In this, James says, a believer's faith ought to distinguish itself from that of, say, demons, who believe "God is one" but don't reflect this positively in their conduct. Such faith is useless, James says because it doesn't find any expression in what the believer does. When Abraham offered up Isaac, it was counted to him for righteousness (justified him), just as other things Abraham did as a demonstration of his faith in God also were counted to him for righteousness.

What James does NOT say anywhere in the passage above is that works save a person, justifying them in the manner in which only the imputed righteousness of the perfect Savior can do (2 Corinthians 5:21). He urges a practical outworking of faith, asserting that faith is completed, it is fully and properly expressed, in corresponding deeds, but James doesn't once indicate that salvation is obtained by works. This is something you're reading into his words, not drawing out of them.

Abraham could, of course, not have been "justified" in anything like the way in which a person post-Calvary is justified by faith in Christ; because if Abraham could have been so justified, Christ need not have died. Anyone who wanted to be saved would just have to do as Abraham had done and thus be "justified" salvifically. But this isn't what Abraham's "justification" accomplished, obviously. His faith and corresponding works did not save him in the post-Calvary sense, the Holy Spirit regenerating spiritually and cleansing Abraham from the stain of his sin (Titus 3:5). Not at all. This, though, is what it appears you're trying to assert.

Already exposed this lie. God never says this alone, but always includes those works no man is saved nor justified by.

You've done no such thing. At all.

God never excludes His own good works in Christ Jesus from His salvation and justification.

This is, as it stands, a nonsensical remark. God's "good work" of our salvation was accomplished solely and perfectly in and through Jesus Christ. He ALONE is the propitiation for our sin; he ALONE is the Way, the Truth and the Life; he ALONE is the Savior (1 John 4:7-11; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5). We can contribute nothing to the entirely finished work of Jesus on our behalf.

I'm not sure if you have read all the Scripture pertaining to salvation by Christ, so I'll quote these once to show another contradiction of your own ideas:

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:8

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 1Co 9:24

And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 2Ti 2:5

"You do err, not knowing the Scriptures."

1 Thessalonians 5:8 says nothing about salvation by works...

Neither does 1 Corinthians 9:24. There's no "works save you" in the verse.

How about 2 Timothy 2:5? Any "works save you" statement in the verse? Nope.

So, I've no idea what you're talking about when you say these verses are in contradiction to my "ideas" which are just basic, orthodox, biblical doctrine.

Shall be justified by in James 2. There is no salvation of Christ, without being justified by Christ by doing His works from a pure heart.

See above.

The faith you are preaching apart any works at all, is of your own self, and dead to God.

Nonsense. You haven't come anywhere close to showing this. Sheesh.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I stick to what is plainly written by God,a nd not by anything He never says for any child to read.

Waht is plainly written by God is that work based salvation is a false religion, no one can earn their salvation.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. (Rom. 4:1-4, ESV)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Thnak you for clarifying the truth, that this is your own belief alone, and not found in doctrine of Christ written in the Bible.

I agree.

The gospel of faith with works, that I show by Scriptures, is all I'm interested in. Thanks anyway.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 2Co 3:12

I stick to what is plainly written by God,a nd not by anything He never says for any child to read.

You can quote a hundred verses to refute me, but please keep in mind, that the devil quotes Scripture too, he knows the Scripture better than any human being. One can quote Scripture to justify any idea, including abortion, socialism and even holocaust:

It would have been good for that man if he had not been born! (Matt. 26:24)
But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! (Matt. 24:19)

Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. (Acts 2:44-45)
I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (Acts 20:35)

But of the cities of these peoples which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the Lord your God has commanded you, lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the Lord your God. (Deut. 20:16-18)
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ” (1 Sam. 15:3)

All of these are "plainly written by God", the term "holocause", "cherem" in Hebrew, literally means "utterly destroy". Only sound doctrine can show you the proper context of these texts, and you have to conclude by your "own belief" that abortion, socialism and holocaust are wrong, demonic and unbiblical, even though they are "plainly written by God". And likewise, work based salvation.

 

[RBDERRICK]

To say faith without works is dead is the same as saying faith without love is dead for the works we do unto the Lord are our labor of love for others as in Matthew 25:34-40. It's the same labor of love Christ did for us. Faith is action and if it has no fruit it is a false faith.

This is the right teaching that gets lost in the arguments. Try saying someone is saved without loving people, and eyebrows are raised, but say the exact same thing about 'works' of love, and the same people will look downcast at it.

Works have been given a bad name unjustly. It's only the works we do of ourselves without Christ, that are excluded from being saved and justified by Him.

In the same manner, try saying that Jesus' faith is ever separated from His own works, and people will balk at demonizing all works, because then they must exclude God's works through us from being justified by God.

James is not speaking about one who has faith, but one who claims to have faith.

That's why it's called dead faith. It's the same error of saying anyone walks in the light with Christ, while doing dead works of darkness.

It's like giving lip service, but the heart is empty and void of God.

True. Which is until any man does the will of God and repents of our own dead works without His faith, that He may then give His promised faith and new heart and life of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God never excludes all works from being saved by Him, which would include His own works we do through His Son.

God only excludes all works of man, that we could boast of, since they are done by our own power and will alone.

No man can become sons of God by their own will, but only by crucifying our will, and the dead works thereof for Jesus' sake.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What is truly amazing is to watch otherwise sensible people completely erase standard grammatical conprehension, in order to say the exact opposite of what God says. It's truly incredible to watch all the suspension of beliefe in God's words, in order to say we are justified by faith alone, and not by works.

And some even say God never says we are justified by works, and not by faith alone.

I believe that is the mystery of iniquity that Paul speaks of. Otherwise normally intelligent people mysteriously lose the intelligence of a child, in order to disbelieve what God plainly says in simple words on paper, that any child can read and comprehend.

It's the mystery of sinful man believing he can justify himself forever by his own faith and doctrine alone:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:4-5

The immortal gods of pagan idolatry were marked by one clear thing: They knew how to do both good and evil at will, and live forever... Such goship of man on earth in our own right, and by our own faith and will only lasts until the grave. The angels that sin are cast straight to hell with no space to repent, and do only the will of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

??? None of these passages say anything about this distinction you're making here. None of them are qualified by any statement

Scriptures are given otherwise. All works that are excluded from justifying a man with God, are qualified as dead works of man without God, whether by law alone, or our own righteousness, sacrifices, and philanthropy.

All such works of man's own will and faith, that can be boasted of, are filthy rags to God.

to the effect that salvation is obtained by works -

Despite your rejection, I stil give the Bible gospel of being made worthy to obtain eternal salvation.

but only of a God-originating sort.

Exactly. Only the works of God we do by His Son, are included in being saved and justified by Him. (James 2)

Any other good works of man are excluded being saved and justified by Christ. (Eph 2, Rom 4, Titus 3)

This qualification is of your own making which is why it contradicts the passages I cited that explicitly exclude good works as a means of salvation.

Sinful man excluding the good works of God in Christ Jesus from his salvation, excludes himself from being justified by God.

No one is justified - by which I mean saved and made a "new creature in Christ" - by "doing the will of God in Christ Jesus."

And the world is passing away, and the lust thereof: but he that is doing the will of God is abiding for ever. 1Jo 2:17

By doing the will of God we abide forever. By not doing the will of God, we abide not forever.

We are saved from doing our own will, that we may do the will of God and abide forever.

It is by grace alone through faith alone that Salvation

Your book notwithstanding, the only thing the Bible says about faith alone, is that it is dead, being alone, and can save no man.

- who is Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2;8-9; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:11-13) - reconciles us to God.

If we repent of our own dead works for Jesus' sake, He will keep His NT promise to reconcile us to God, so that all the heart and life is now of God, with nothing of the devil.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. John 14:6,11

No man comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ, and no man comes to Jesus Christ but by doing His works.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1Pe 1:17

And the Father will justify the works in His judgment as worthy of resurrection unto life.

Jesus has perfectly satisfied all of God's holy justice forever

True. Which is why He is risen from the dead.

and there is nothing more to be done to complete Christ's atoning sacrifice for us (Hebrews 9-10:21).

True. No works of man can save a man. Nor can man's faith alone...

Jesus killed by sinful man, condemns all men that sin. Jesus risen from the dead justifies them that repent from their sins and trespasses.

The unrepented sinful people still crucify Him afresh to themselves, and are still guilty of His blood shed by all sinful men on the cross.

It is you who is contradicting God's word, putting James's words above the explicit and repeated denial of Scripture that works contribute to a person's salvation.

Your words and faith notwithstanding, I put God's words and faith above you.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:9

The salvation and faith of Jesus is the gift of God to all them that repent and do His will. The salvation and faith that is of ourselves to do our own will, is of man not of God.

Sinful man saved by his own faith alone, can glory in his own salvation alone.

The righteous saved by the faith of Jesus to do His will, can only glory in Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is you who is contradicting God's word, putting James's words above the explicit and repeated denial of Scripture that works contribute to a person's salvation.

God's words in James are explicit: Man is justified by works, and not by faith alone, which is dead and explicitly excluded from being jsutified by Christ.

God's words by Paul also explicitly exclude man's own works alone from being justified by Christ.

James begins this section of verses by distinguishing his faith from that of others by how it manifests in what he does.

Correct. Man's faith without doing the good works of God, is dead and excluded from being saved by God.

Man with Jesus' faith doing God's will, are justified by God, and not excluded from being saved by God

His belief in Christ results in corresponding action.

And no action with God is no faith toward God.

Such faith is useless,

True. Any faith of man alone is dead to God, and any faith of man doing works against God, is enmity with God.

When Abraham offered up Isaac, it was counted to him for righteousness (justified him),

He was judged by God as being righteous by works.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1Jo 3:7

just as other things Abraham did as a demonstration of his faith in God also were counted to him for righteousness.

The Bible says Abraham was justified by offering up Isaac. Not before when he did works he could glory of, and was honored by men.

Sacrificing his only son was by the faith of God alone, and was God's work alone, that Abraham had no desire to do, and took no glory in.

It was the same work Jesus Christ would do by the faith of His Father alone, when offering Himself up on a cross.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Luk 22:42

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 1Co 15:10

These are the only works that can jsutify a man with God and Christ Jesus.

No man can say, yet not I, but Christ in me does the works, while doing his own dead works of the flesh.

What James does NOT say anywhere in the passage above is that works save a person

True. Only that faith of man, that is without works, does not save a man beyond the grave.

Our own faith and works can save our own lives on earth, but not from the grave.

Only the works of God done in Christ Jesus can save a man's soul and life after the grave.

For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 1Ti 4:8

justifying them

False. A man is justified by works.

He urges a practical outworking of faith,

Commands.

Man's religion 'urges' themselves and others to sin less.

God first commands repentance from doing our own dead works, to cease from sinning.

Abraham could, of course, not have been "justified" in anything like the way in which a person post-Calvary is justified by faith in Christ

God is talkiing about and pre-calvary with Abraham born before the Lord come in the flesh. He explcitly applies the same justification by works to any man today after His resurrection.

; because if Abraham could have been so justified, Christ need not have died.

Your doctrine aside, the Lamb needed come in the flesh, because all men have sinned, including Abraham.

Being presently justified by God, does not mean having never sinned against God.

Salvation is from sinning, not from not sinning. And never with sinning.

But this isn't what Abraham's "justification" accomplished, obviously. His faith and corresponding works did not save him in the post-Calvary sense, the Holy Spirit regenerating spiritually and cleansing Abraham from the stain of his sin (Titus 3:5).

It did not mean he was born again, which is only by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

He was justified by God, and preserved in hell by God, until the Lord Jesus went to preach to them hell.

The righteous since Abel were led away captive, and the unrighteous left in hell.

In like manner, the Lord will come again, to ressurrect the righteous into the air, and to leave the unrighteous on earth.

This is, as it stands, a nonsensical remark.

Nonsensical to those that do it for their own justification.

Unrepented sinners that exclude their justification from doing the works of God, seek instead a saving faith and christ, that is excluded from the works of God.

God's "good work" of our salvation was accomplished solely and perfectly in and through Jesus Christ.

Not any man's salvation, without repenting of his own works.

I preach the gospel of godly repentance unto salvation, not the other gospel of salvation with half-hearted repentance of sinful man.

He ALONE is the propitiation for our sin; he ALONE is the Way, the Truth and the Life; he ALONE is the Savior (1 John 4:7-11; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5).

True.

We can contribute nothing to the entirely finished work of Jesus on our behalf.

True. Now, we can only obey His commandment to repent of all our own works for Jesus' sake.

That is when His death, burial, and resurrection are not in vain to them that do repent.

But to them is His gospel preached in vain, that repent not from their own works, to crucify Him afresh to themselves.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mat 15:9

I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Gal 4:11

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Phl 2:16

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 1Co 15:10

Neither does 1 Corinthians 9:24. There's no "works save you" in the verse.

Once again, you book notwithstanding, the Bible says no works of our own righteousness, can save and justify us with God.

God never says no works at all can justify a man, especially since God says man is justified by works.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

God also says man's own faith alone, cannot save any man from condemnation in the judgment of God by works.

So, I've no idea what you're talking about when you say these verses are in contradiction to my "ideas" which are just basic, orthodox, biblical doctrine.

Unconditional salvation by faith alone, set apart from any works, whether good or evil, is indeed basic, orthodox doctrine and traditon of half-hearted Christian religion.

Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned. Hos 7:8

 

[RBDERRICK]

Waht is plainly written by God is that work based salvation is a false religion, no one can earn their salvation.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. (Rom. 4:1-4, ESV)

Beginning with the first post, I've already offered Bible clarification of the works that do not justify a man, as opposed to them that do.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You can quote a hundred verses to refute me,

No, just a couple. Which is why I never continue doing so endlessly.

but please keep in mind, that the devil quotes Scripture too,

Actually, he twists Scripture, such as cutting them short.

It's how he teaches no works have anything to do with being saved and justified by Christ.

he knows the Scripture better than any human being.

If you say so for yourself.

But not better than Jesus, nor them in Christ Jesus.

One can quote Scripture to justify any idea, including abortion, socialism and even holocaust:

True. And especially unconditional salvation and justification by one's own faith alone, set apart from works we do.

And likewise, work based salvation.

Doing sinful man's works to be saved are vain. Only doing God works in Christ Jesus can justify a man.

Jesus is never separated from His works pleasing the Father, and sons in Christ Jesus are not separated from doing His works pleasing the Son and the Father.

Those who separate their justification from any and all works they do, separate their faith from doing any works of God in Christ Jesus.

Jas 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[Tenchi]

Scriptures are given otherwise. All works that are excluded from justifying a man with God, are qualified as dead works of man without God, whether by law alone, or our own righteousness, sacrifices, and philanthropy.

Ephesians 8:9 does not say "...not of dead works, lest any man should boast..." only works, unqualified and thus universal. All works of whatever kind have no salvific value. A person is saved solely by their trusting in Christ as their Savior and yielding to him as their Lord (Romans 10:9-10).

Despite your rejection, I stil give the Bible gospel of being made worthy to obtain eternal salvation.

There is no such gospel that is the true Gospel. There is only one Savior and we ain't him. To say that one must contribute their own righteous work of whatever sort to their salvation is to make oneself a co-Savior with Christ and to deny that he alone has fully satisfied all of God's holy justice through his atoning work on the cross, as the Bible says that he has. This is out-and-out blasphemy.

Acts 4:12
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Hebrews 9:26
26 ...But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:10
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all...

Hebrews 7:26-27
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

John 19:30
30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Jesus did it all. God neither wants, nor needs, anything more from anyone in order for His holy justice to be fully satisfied.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

It is a deeply false thing to say, then, that anyone's work saves them. Salvation is a Person, not good works, and only in him, Jesus Christ, is there salvation.

Exactly. Only the works of God we do by His Son, are included in being saved

They are not the means of our being saved but are only the inevitable effect of being saved.

Sinful man excluding the good works of God in Christ Jesus from his salvation, excludes himself from being justified by God.

Nonsense. Utter nonsense. And blasphemous, to boot.

And the world is passing away, and the lust thereof: but he that is doing the will of God is abiding for ever. 1Jo 2:17

By doing the will of God we abide forever. By not doing the will of God, we abide not forever.

This is not what John wrote. You're twisting his words:

1 John 2:17
17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

Where in this verse does John say, "By doing the will of God we abide forever"? He doesn't. This is your spin on his words. John says only that those who abide forever do God's will. John is describing the conduct of those who abide forever, not the means by which they abide forever. You are here, again, confusing effect for cause.

We are saved from doing our own will, that we may do the will of God and abide forever.

No, it is as a result of being one who "abides forever" - a Christian - that doing the will of God occurs.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. John 14:6,11

No man comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ, and no man comes to Jesus Christ but by doing His works.

This is not what either passage here actually says. Again, you're forcing into them what isn't there.

No man comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ, and no man comes to Jesus Christ but by doing His works.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1Pe 1:17

And the Father will justify the works in His judgment as worthy of resurrection unto life.

Peter never says in verse 17 that "no man comes to Jesus Christ but by doing his works." This is your glaring contortion of Peter's words. God will judge our works, Peter wrote, but Peter never wrote anything in verse 17 about those works being salvific. As well, Peter never said anything about a person's works being judged as worthy of resurrection unto life. This, too, is your addition to Peter's words. You realize, I hope, that in twisting and adding to Scripture you've made yourself a false teacher, a purveyor of error. You realize also, I hope, that, in doing so, you've made yourself an enemy of God.

I put God's words and faith above you.

No, you are putting your faith in a false version of God's word that arises from your own corrupt heart and mind and that you are forcing onto His word.

The salvation and faith of Jesus is the gift of God to all them that repent and do His will.

This is simply not what Paul wrote, as anyone with a proper-functioning pair of eyes can see. The devil did this same "Did God say" thing in Eden with Eve, directly denying the plain statement of God. You're playing with fire, fellow.

Correct. Man's faith without doing the good works of God, is dead and excluded from being saved by God.

See? More of your addition to Scripture. James nowhere wrote anything like "excluded from being saved by God" when talking about faith being completed by works.

And no action with God is no faith toward God.

This is just more of your adding to God's word. James never wrote "no action with God is no faith toward God." He wrote only that faith is not completed, it is not fully expressed without corresponding action. That faith, though, has to exist prior to, and separate from, the actions it produces in order to produce them and thus cannot be dependent upon them. In other words, good works depend upon the faith they express for their existence: If the faith doesn't exist, its corresponding good works don't exist. But this isn't true in reverse. Whether there are corresponding works or not, faith may exist. Whether that faith is active or not, though, is reflected in corresponding works. This is all James is saying. At no time does he ever state that the works arising from faith are salvific, or necessary to faith.

False. A man is justified by works.

Absolutely false. See above.

 

[Tenchi]

Unrepented sinners that exclude their justification from doing the works of God, seek instead a saving faith and christ, that is excluded from the works of God.

Nope. There is no salvation by our works of any kind. There is only one Savior.

I preach the gospel of godly repentance unto salvation, not the other gospel of salvation with half-hearted repentance of sinful man.

Repentance is a thing of the mind, it is a change of understanding, of thought, it is not good works. Repentance may produce good works as an effect but those works are not repentance itself. So, then, whatever "repentance" you think you're preaching it is not biblical repentance.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 1Co 15:10

Here, Paul clearly indicates the opposite of what you're proposing. It was by God's grace Paul was what he was and that grace, once bestowed, produced Paul's labor for the Lord. In other words God's grace caused Paul's labor; Paul's labor did not obtain God's grace.

God never says no works at all can justify a man

Yes, He does. See my last post.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Beginning with the first post, I've already offered Bible clarification of the works that do not justify a man, as opposed to them that do.

Only the works of Christ justify us, none of our own work does.

No, just a couple. Which is why I never continue doing so endlessly.

Actually, he twists Scripture, such as cutting them short.

It's how he teaches no works have anything to do with being saved and justified by Christ.

Do we work FOR salvation or do we work BECAUSE OF salvation? Both seemingly have everything to do with being saved and justified by Christ, but there's a world of difference between these two.

True. And especially unconditional salvation and justification by one's own faith alone, set apart from works we do.

Salvation is free and unconditional through faith alone, BLESSING is neither. You want health and wealth, you have to work for them, work harder than non believers. Prosperity gospel is fake because salvation is being conflated with blessing, I think you're smart enough to know the difference.

Doing sinful man's works to be saved are vain. Only doing God works in Christ Jesus can justify a man.

Jesus is never separated from His works pleasing the Father, and sons in Christ Jesus are not separated from doing His works pleasing the Son and the Father.

Those who separate their justification from any and all works they do, separate their faith from doing any works of God in Christ Jesus.

Jas 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jesus didn't do any work to "please" the Father, God the Father was "well pleased" with Jesus when he was baptized, that was the beginning of his ministry, he hadn't done any miraculous work yet.

When He (Jesus) had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matt. 3:16-17)