The prophecy that unfolds gradually

[Cyberseeker]

When Jesus said, "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ..." (Matt 24:16) he was drawing a dynamic prophetic scene that would unfold gradually over several fulfilments!

In AD 30 an amazing 1335/1290 day sequence occurred in the ancient calendar climaxing in Messiah's atonement and the abolishing of the former order. (Hebrews 8-10) Left standing in the Holy place was the high priest who rejected what God had done. He and his altar – yes, the temple altar – became the 'Abomination that leads to desolation.'

But did not Jesus also say, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies …?" (Luke 21:20) Did that happen in AD 30? The answer is no, but what did happen was an 'overspreading' of the same abomination every year and every day until AD 66 when Jerusalem was indeed surrounded. The believers, recognising Christ’s words, fled the city and were saved. Some of his words were fulfilled AD 30 and some AD 66-70. It was unfolding gradually!

Now, here is where it gets really interesting. In Marks account of the same prophecy he says,

"When you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains … For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved." (Mark 13:14-20)

Did a tribulation of such proportion occur in AD 70? (nothing like it from beginning of creation - no human being saved etc. etc.) Was it that bad? Preterists try hard to paint Jerusalem's siege as the 'mother of all tribulations' but, as awful as it was, it fails to match the description given. The overarching picture, when all Bible references are compared, show AD 70 as a fulfilment like Antiochus Epiphenes was - a fulfilment in part, and precursor to something much greater to come.

My point is this: There was a fulfilment of an 'antichrist' in 167 BC; there was a fulfilment of an abomination in AD 30; there was a fulfilment of a tribulation in AD 66-70 and there will be a fulfilment again in the future. We have had a series of precursors but the full picture has been (and still is) developing.

The common objection to this idea is, "where does it stop?" but no one is saying dual fulfilment repeats indefinitely. A prophecy is totally fulfilled when all aspects of that prophecy have taken place. Take for example Luke's mention of armies. This obviously relates to the Roman siege of Jerusalem; however Luke telescopes beyond then to apocalyptic visions of waves and seas roaring. (Luke 21:25) Were there reports of violent tidal activity in AD 70? No, because, it did not happen then! It waits a time when the heavenly bodies are shaken.

So, this particular prophecy is unfolding gradually and I believe the popular 'Abomination' doctrine needs to be reappraised along these lines.

Full article here:

Cyberseeker

 

[Strangelove]

So, this particular prophecy is unfolding gradually and I believe the popular 'Abomination' doctrine needs to be reappraised along these lines.

Hey Cyber,

I got no problem wth dual fulfillment.

Whats the popular 'abomination' doctrine again?

 

[Hitch]

You have missed the point of why God judged Israel in the first century, that being the regicide which is impossible to repeat.

 

[Strangelove]

You have missed the point of why God judged Israel in the first century, that being the regicide which is impossible to repeat.

Anyone who is shown the truth of Jesus Christ and falls away commits regicide again. (spiritually). And for them there is no way back. Their judgement is final.

Doc.

 

[Hitch]

Anyone who is shown the truth of Jesus Christ and falls away commits regicide again. (spiritually). And for them there is no way back. Their judgement is final.

Doc.

True. What bearing do that have in the issue at hand?

The premise is simlpe . The beleiver today has greater blessing because, as is stated directly in scripture he believes though he has not seen. Then those who met Christ face to face in the flesh and rejected him, murdered him and his servants have the greatest possible sin. And the greatest historical judgement.
It impossible to present Christ as Savior without presenting Christ as Judge. Both offices are his alone . Christ is the Chief Corner Stone, and the Stumbloing Block ,at the same time. The first century jewish apostates had these facts demonstrated as God wrath came upon them to the 'uttermost'.
Dont forget Christ personally told them he would take away their kingdom, and he personally, through the parable, told them he would grind them to powder, and he told them it would take place in their generation. This judgement is generationally and geographicly specific.

 

[Strangelove]

True. What bearing do that have in the issue at hand?

Nothing, I just get a sick thrill out of correcting people whenever I can....even if I have to go off topic (and go spiritual) to do so.

 

[Hitch]

Nothing, I just get a sick thrill out of correcting people whenever I can....even if I have to go off topic (and go spiritual) to do so.

PERF!

 

[Strangelove]

PERF!

hehe...

Is that the trash heap from Fraggle Rock.....or.....one of those scary vulture baddies from The Dark Crystal?

You gotto tell me it's been buggin' me all day.

 

[Sinthesis]

Nothing, I just get a sick thrill out of correcting people whenever I can....even if I have to go off topic (and go spiritual) to do so.

Oh! Now I get it! You're a spiritual geocentricist; who professes the moon shot was a spiritual hoax!:rolling

 

[Hitch]

hehe...

Is that the trash heap from Fraggle Rock.....or.....one of those scary vulture baddies from The Dark Crystal?

You gotto tell me it's been buggin' me all day.

Ploobis King of Gorch,,,duh.

 

[Elijah674]

When Jesus said, "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ..." (Matt 24:16) he was drawing a dynamic prophetic scene that would unfold gradually over several fulfilments!

In AD 30 an amazing 1335/1290 day sequence occurred in the ancient calendar climaxing in Messiah's atonement and the abolishing of the former order. (Hebrews 8-10) Left standing in the Holy place was the high priest who rejected what God had done. He and his altar – yes, the temple altar – became the 'Abomination that leads to desolation.'

But did not Jesus also say, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies …?" (Luke 21:20) Did that happen in AD 30? The answer is no, but what did happen was an 'overspreading' of the same abomination every year and every day until AD 66 when Jerusalem was indeed surrounded. The believers, recognising Christ’s words, fled the city and were saved. Some of his words were fulfilled AD 30 and some AD 66-70. It was unfolding gradually!

Now, here is where it gets really interesting. In Marks account of the same prophecy he says, Did a tribulation of such proportion occur in AD 70? (nothing like it from beginning of creation - no human being saved etc. etc.) Was it that bad? Preterists try hard to paint Jerusalem's siege as the 'mother of all tribulations' but, as awful as it was, it fails to match the description given. The overarching picture, when all Bible references are compared, show AD 70 as a fulfilment like Antiochus Epiphenes was - a fulfilment in part, and precursor to something much greater to come.

My point is this: There was a fulfilment of an 'antichrist' in 167 BC; there was a fulfilment of an abomination in AD 30; there was a fulfilment of a tribulation in AD 66-70 and there will be a fulfilment again in the future. We have had a series of precursors but the full picture has been (and still is) developing.

The common objection to this idea is, "where does it stop?" but no one is saying dual fulfilment repeats indefinitely. A prophecy is totally fulfilled when all aspects of that prophecy have taken place. Take for example Luke's mention of armies. This obviously relates to the Roman siege of Jerusalem; however Luke telescopes beyond then to apocalyptic visions of waves and seas roaring. (Luke 21:25) Were there reports of violent tidal activity in AD 70? No, because, it did not happen then! It waits a time when the heavenly bodies are shaken.

So, this particular prophecy is unfolding gradually and I believe the popular 'Abomination' doctrine needs to be reappraised along these lines.

Full article here:

Cyberseeker

Hi Cyber.., (we will see if we can get this back to your good thread topic??)
I have believed similar for a good number of years. The Lord LEADS huh? Rom. 8:14
The Rev. 12:17 verse finding my 'old' church well on the path of Old Israel's saying but not doing (Matt. 23:3) had me in a [REAL BIND! Rev. 18:4] The reason being, I believe that both had the Matt. 25 + Isa. 5's Virgin Doctrines. Anyway, this is what I have ended up with!;)

Subject: --HISTORY REPEAT!--

Just a thought: Elijah here.
If one cannot follow God's quoted Truth of Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 as the Word of God, stated CLEARLY, and in a way that even most of Heb. 5's 'milkfed' ones can even get something from. I suggest that you shy away from Ph.D'ism, the arm of flesh & the Greek, Latin, & Heb., & stick with just one King James translation itself. The BOTTOM line is, is that ALL of these others ways of finding 'some' truth, are the real reasons that have caused the BIGGEST MESS OF DIS/UNITY that the GOSPEL ALONE prophesied of! See Rev. 17:5

And I realize that there are & were some who could not understand Paul's wording of inspiration & that it is scripture that also says that.... 'which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction'. 2 Peter 3:14-17 in part.

Forum: Lets start with Eccl. 3:14.
"I know that, WHATSOEVER GOD DOETH, IT SHALL BE FOREVER: NOTHING CAN BE PUT TO IT, NOR ANY THING TAKEN FROM IT: ..." (in part)
Actually it is just about a repeat even in Wording, as seen in Rev.'s closing verses!
The verses are a WARNING about adding to or removing any part of the Word of God! And the BOTTOM line is that ones name would be removed from the Book of Life. Now for the rest of the 14th verse. "... THAT MEN SHOULD FEAR BEFORE HIM."

For one to say that the Eccl. verses do not mean what they say, is doing just that!

Now look at the verse following verse 14. Verse 15 says.. "THAT WHICH HAS BEEN IS NOW; AND THAT WHICH IS TO BE HAS ALREADY BEEN; AND GOD REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST."GOD'S WORD says that it is so!

Take note: If it is not to be, God say that it will not be. Example: 'Sin will not arise a second time' Nah. 1:9. And we all know about the world flood not happening a second time? So, there are so very few times that history does not repeat, and that God does the easy thing for [us] by pointing out the lesser number. (by the way, Rev. is full of O.T. Sanctuary! see Ps. 77:13)

If anyone would BELIEVE THE *GODHEAD'S INSPIRED WORD (ALL OF IT! See 2 Tim. 3:16 & Matt. 4:4) they would find Few reasons for mixed up doctrinal folds.
But the bottom line is that even the Virgin Fold is going after the fate of Virgin Israel of old!! (same history) They are once again Christ/less. See Rev. 3:9 or Rev. 17:5! And the nasty repeat for them is VERIFIED in Eze. 9.
Try reading Rev. 12:17 S-L-O-W-L-E-Y! And in Christ's day, who do you think took over the 'DESOLATE' fold that Christ was put out of? It was Christ that stated that 'Your house (fold) is left unto you DESOLATE'. Matt. 23:38.

So, this is what will be the final fate of Spiritual Virgin Israel! (the 666 thing'y is for the world's testing) See 1 Peter 4:17 FOR WHO IS JUDGED FIRST.

Back to Chapter 1:9-10 of Eccl. Lets check to 'see' (if we can) if God made a mistake? (man's foolish 'poetry' remark)

We do remember that we were told that 'IT SHALL BE FOR EVER and that NOTHING CAN BE PUT TO IT NOR ANYTHING TAKEN FROM IT.' (chapter 3:14-15)

"THE THING THAT HATH BEEN IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE; AND THAT WHICH IS DONE IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE DONE: AND THERE IS (NOTHING) *NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN. v.9
IS THERE [*ANY THING] WHERE OF IT MAY BE SAID, SEE, THIS IS NEW? [IT HATH BEEN ALREADY OF OLD TIME, WHICH WAS BEFORE US.]" v.10

Notice that after the GodHead's question, that Their Inspiration came quickly before 'ignorant' man could botch up the question!! But what does one hear today?? Should we do the 'foolish' (Matt. 25) thing and read & study the 'earthly' educated ones reams & reams of commentaries, with hardly any two alike?? (false fold/wise at least)

Lets just add another 'documented' fact here with these two verses.
In Gen. 41:32 the Lord gave Pharaoh a vision 'TWICE'. (remember now, that we see TWICE at least in the Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 that history is to be repeated) Also note that God has 'inspired' this thought ... "And for that the dream was [doubled] unto Pharaoh [twice]; it is [because the thing is established by God], and God will shortly bring it to pass.

So bottom line: If you want to know Truth, find it in the past history for the furture history to be! All the way from the 666 test to where God 'tested' His own in the past before they were to enter the land of their Canaan. And the crucifixion of Christ a second time? See Heb. 6:6!


​

 

[Strangelove]

Oh! Now I get it! You're a spiritual geocentricist; who professes the moon shot was a spiritual hoax!:rolling

Oh ya! I think I got it too. When we were debating the physical scientific realities of those issues YOU were spiritually posting your contributions as, if I remember rightly instead of your usually 2 cents we got a piddly....uhm....half a penny's worth? :toofunny

Sun Orbit's the Earth?
http://www.christianforums.net/f22/sun-orbits-earth-31070/

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

When Jesus said, "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ..." (Matt 24:16) he was drawing a dynamic prophetic scene that would unfold gradually over several fulfilments!

In AD 30 an amazing 1335/1290 day sequence occurred in the ancient calendar climaxing in Messiah's atonement and the abolishing of the former order. (Hebrews 8-10) Left standing in the Holy place was the high priest who rejected what God had done. He and his altar – yes, the temple altar – became the 'Abomination that leads to desolation.'

But did not Jesus also say, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies …?" (Luke 21:20) Did that happen in AD 30? The answer is no, but what did happen was an 'overspreading' of the same abomination every year and every day until AD 66 when Jerusalem was indeed surrounded. The believers, recognising Christ’s words, fled the city and were saved. Some of his words were fulfilled AD 30 and some AD 66-70. It was unfolding gradually!

Now, here is where it gets really interesting. In Marks account of the same prophecy he says, Did a tribulation of such proportion occur in AD 70? (nothing like it from beginning of creation - no human being saved etc. etc.) Was it that bad? Preterists try hard to paint Jerusalem's siege as the 'mother of all tribulations' but, as awful as it was, it fails to match the description given. The overarching picture, when all Bible references are compared, show AD 70 as a fulfilment like Antiochus Epiphenes was - a fulfilment in part, and precursor to something much greater to come.

My point is this: There was a fulfilment of an 'antichrist' in 167 BC; there was a fulfilment of an abomination in AD 30; there was a fulfilment of a tribulation in AD 66-70 and there will be a fulfilment again in the future. We have had a series of precursors but the full picture has been (and still is) developing.

The common objection to this idea is, "where does it stop?" but no one is saying dual fulfilment repeats indefinitely. A prophecy is totally fulfilled when all aspects of that prophecy have taken place. Take for example Luke's mention of armies. This obviously relates to the Roman siege of Jerusalem; however Luke telescopes beyond then to apocalyptic visions of waves and seas roaring. (Luke 21:25) Were there reports of violent tidal activity in AD 70? No, because, it did not happen then! It waits a time when the heavenly bodies are shaken.

So, this particular prophecy is unfolding gradually and I believe the popular 'Abomination' doctrine needs to be reappraised along these lines.

Full article here:

Cyberseeker

I do not see how the priest standing in the temple in 30ad fits the prophecy at all. What occured later in the century when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies who eventually razed the temple does fit Jesus prophecy in the same way that Antichus Epiphanes IV fit what Daniel spoke of. There is no solid reason to look for any other fulfillments aside from those 2 based on scripture.

 

[Strangelove]

One day someone will print out all Elijah's posts and bind them in majick leather like the Necronomicon in 'Army of Darkness'.

 

[Alabaster]

One day someone will print out all Elijah's posts and bind them in majick leather like the Necronomicon in 'Army of Darkness'.

As long as there is a kaleidoscope of colour available.

 

[Cyberseeker]

I do not see how the priest standing in the temple in 30ad fits the prophecy at all. What occured later in the century when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies who eventually razed the temple does fit Jesus prophecy in the same way that Antichus Epiphanes IV fit what Daniel spoke of. There is no solid reason to look for any other fulfillments aside from those 2 based on scripture.

You are confusing the 'desolation' with the 'abomination.' The desolation was the result of the abomination - not the abomination itself.

The seventieth 'week' came between AD 26 – 33 and sacrifice ceased (as far as God was concerned) in the midst. (AD 30) So, did an abomination also occur in the midst? The answer is yes, but it did not cause the sacrifice to cease as so often taught. Rather, it was God who abolished the sacrifice, and the abomination which occurred in the middle of the 'week' was the continuation of animal sacrifice after God had declared it complete! In other words, the sacrifice itself became the abomination of desolation - the blood of bulls and goats like that of unclean flesh.

When Messiah was being nailed to the cross, the same priests who sent him there were preparing the morning sacrifice. Not only that, they were slaughtering for the great fifteenth day of Nisan - two bulls, one ram, seven lambs and a male goat to make atonement for the people. This was in addition to the regular burnt offerings. It was the morning of the fifteenth day of the first month at about the time the cross was being raised off the ground. What could be a greater abomination than to reject the Son of God simultaneously performing the rituals of atonement in place of God's lamb?

Please look at the source references.

"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." (Dan 9:27)

"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days." (Dan 12:11)

When taken together these verses mean Messiah abolished temple sacrifice and simultaneously an abomination appeared in the temple contradicting His atoning blood.

 

[Hitch]

You're right about the sacrifices,to a point, but Jesus ws clear on what he thought was the abomination.

If your version is correct there should be an apostolic warrant to avoid the temple. There isnt one that I know of. By conjecture I think the apostles likely were gaining a clearer picture of what was to come and decided there ws no need God would remove the temple and priesthood in his own time.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You are confusing the 'desolation' with the 'abomination.' The desolation was the result of the abomination - not the abomination itself.

The seventieth 'week' came between AD 26 – 33 and sacrifice ceased (as far as God was concerned) in the midst. (AD 30) So, did an abomination also occur in the midst? The answer is yes, but it did not cause the sacrifice to cease as so often taught. Rather, it was God who abolished the sacrifice, and the abomination which occurred in the middle of the 'week' was the continuation of animal sacrifice after God had declared it complete! In other words, the sacrifice itself became the abomination of desolation - the blood of bulls and goats like that of unclean flesh.

When Messiah was being nailed to the cross, the same priests who sent him there were preparing the morning sacrifice. Not only that, they were slaughtering for the great fifteenth day of Nisan - two bulls, one ram, seven lambs and a male goat to make atonement for the people. This was in addition to the regular burnt offerings. It was the morning of the fifteenth day of the first month at about the time the cross was being raised off the ground. What could be a greater abomination than to reject the Son of God simultaneously performing the rituals of atonement in place of God's lamb?

Please look at the source references.

24 ‘Seventy weeks have been set for your people and the Holy City Zion, in order to finish off sins, to set a seal upon sins, to end Law breaking, to pay for sins, to bring justice through the ages, to put a seal upon the vision and the Prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
25 ‘So, know this and understand it: From the time when the answer is sent and the command is given to rebuild JeruSalem, until the coming of the Anointed Leader, there will be seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks. He will return and rebuild the square and the wall during difficult times. 26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks are finished, the Anointed One will be destroyed and he will no longer be able to judge. So, the leader who is coming will corrupt and cut off the city and the Holy Place in a downpour, until he orders the end of the wars and exterminations.
Note: Another version of the Septuagint reads: 24 ‘Seventy weeks will come in order to bring a rooting out upon your people, to bring a finishing off of sin and unrighteousness in the City of Zion, and the feeling of shame upon the unrighteous. Then the vision of righteousness of the ages will shine through, and at the end of the vision there will be rejoicing in the Holy of Holies; 25 knowledge will shine through; and [there will be] rejoicing, a turning from unrighteousness, and JeruSalem the City of Jehovah will be rebuilt. 26 But after seven plus sixty-two weeks have passed away, the Anointed One will no longer be, and the king of the nations will destroy the city in rage along with the Holy Place and the anointed, until he orders an end to the wars and exterminations.
27 ‘Then he will strengthen a Sacred Agreement with many for a period of seven [days]; but during the middle of the seven days, the sacrifices and the drink offerings will be lifted away. And thereafter, the disgusting destroyer will come to the Temple, and it will lie desolate until its time has been completed.’

When taken together these verses mean Messiah abolished temple sacrifice and simultaneously an abomination appeared in the temple contradicting His atoning blood.

According to scripture, it is the abomination that causes the desolation. What exactly does the scriptures tell us that abomination was? I currently believe that the abomination was the nation's armies (on both occusions) surrounding Jerusalem and invading the Holy Place. it was that abomination that resulted in desolation both with Antichus IV and Roman armies later according to history.


Matthew

History shows us that ‘the disgusting destroyer’ (gr. bdelugma tes eremoseos), which Jesus spoke of at Matthew 24:15, proved to be the armies of Rome (with their pagan standards or flags) when they camped around JeruSalem’s walls in 66-C.E. Christians in the city recognized this as the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy about its imminent destruction, and fled JeruSalem into the nearby mountains. Then, in the year 70-C.E., ‘all these things’ ended when the Romans destroyed JeruSalem.

p.s. According to Daniel 9:26-27, it appears that the leader who confirmed an agreement for 7 days was not Jesus, the Messiah, but instead, a leader of Rome.

 

[Cyberseeker]

ToT, you have put your wording into my quoted post. I'll forgive ya this time.

According to scripture, it is the abomination that causes the desolation. What exactly does the scriptures tell us that abomination was? I currently believe that the abomination was the nation's armies (on both occusions) surrounding Jerusalem and invading the Holy Place. it was that abomination that resulted in desolation both with Antichus IV and Roman armies later according to history.

Study the late temple history even more carefully and you will find it was already more disgusting (in Gods eyes) than anything the Romans did to it. Like I said before, it had already been abominated.

p.s. According to Daniel 9:26-27, it appears that the leader who confirmed an agreement for 7 days was not Jesus, the Messiah, but instead, a leader of Rome.

Please give me your dates for the 70th week. The 69th week ended AD26. Please explain the gap of forty years approx until your suggested 70th week in the AD70 period.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Please give me your dates for the 70th week. The 69th week ended AD26. Please explain the gap of forty years approx until your suggested 70th week in the AD70 period.

I see nothing in scripture that indicates that there is a gap between weeks 69 and week 70. So like you seem to believe, I too see the 70th week falling immediately after the 69th, which would put it in or near the 4th decade AD.
It seems from reading Daniel 9:27 that the Ab that causes Des does not come during the 70th week, but AFTERWARD.