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The Second Coming of Christ

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DezeraysHammer

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Something has been bothering me for some time now and I thought I should get some input from professing believers. It pertains to the second coming of Christ. A while back I was reading the book of Revelation when I ran across verse 22:20 “… Surely, I [Jesus] come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus†(KJV – see also 3:11; 22:2,7,12). Out of curiosity I looked up the word “quickly†in my Strong’s Concordance and it had this word and definition: Grk. Tachu (adv.) – quickly, speedily (without delay). Expressed is the idea that Jesus would return very soon. In fact most Bible versions translate the word “soon†and The Message goes so far as to paraphrase “’…. I’m on my way! I’ll be there soon!’ Yes; Come, Master Jesus!†(22:20). I also looked for other Bible verses that used the word "tachu" and none of them corresponded to an extended delay (over many years), all meant "soon" quite literally. It's quite clear that the New Testament encourages believers to mature in Christ with the expectation that Jesus would be returning “soon.†However, here we are some 2000 years later and Jesus has not returned. I'm having trouble seeing how this is not a Bible contradiction. I’ve tried talking with my friends about this issue but they typically brush off the topic with the excuse that the word “soon†is relative and that it could basically mean at any time. They also explain that God’s concept of time is different from ours, so we can’t really know what “soon†means. However, in my studies it seems that when God speaks to mankind through Scripture He does so in terms man can understand. For example, in the book of Genesis it is written that God created the world and all things in it in six days and rested on the seventh. The majority of Christians that I know take this quite literally. When the Bible says that Jesus arose on the third day believers also take that literally. However when John records Jesus as saying “…. I come quickly [soon]†all of a sudden time is relative and “soon†could mean anything?

I’ve heard some believers state that what’s taking so long is that certain things have to happen before the return of Christ (i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Luke 17:20-37) and that things are definately shaping up for His return. Some even point to technological advancements as “evidence†for the approaching of Christ's return. But when I read Scripture it’s quite apparent that the New Testament believers actually thought Christ would return “soonâ€Â, most probably in their time or shortly thereafter. Paul apparently believed that he lived in the “last days†(Hebrews 1:1-2). Peter believed that “… the end of all things is at hand [draws near, approaches]†(1 Peter 4:7). Throughout the book of Revelation John encourages believes to 'shape up before they ship out', believing that Jesus would return “soonâ€Â. So if the return of Christ would be thousands of years later, then why were these divinely inspired New Testament writers so convinced that Jesus would return very soon? And why did John use a certain word (tachu) when quoting Jesus as saying He would come "soon" if divine foresight should have known that 2000 years later Christ would not have returned? He could have easily said "some day", "eventually", or "after much time passes" instead. These questions are very bothersome to me and have really hurt my faith. Worst of all I'm criticized by some of my friends for "doubting" despite the fact that I'm just quoting Scripture. Any help would be appreciated.
 
On this forum, you will probably receive mostly a “Dispensational†view for answers to this question. Let me be the first to give you something different. I believe that the Book of The Revelation was written predominantly to the 1st century Church under persecution from Rome and Nero in particular. Many scholars now are seeing that The Revelation could have easily been written before the fall of Jerusalem. I for one believe this. In the case of Jesus coming quickly, the prayer was answered as Jesus came in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD. Hank Hanegraaff has a new book called “The Apocalypse Code†which discusses this whole scenario.
Blessings Bubba
 
Hello DezeraysHammer and welcome to the boards.
I will move this post to end times, where i Believe you will get more answers.
 
Vic.
I began believing in Dispensationalism and after being challenged by a mature Pastor in the faith, I have come to the point that I can say that I am a Partial Preterist and Amillennialist. Yet, I see truth in all the other positions except Dispensationalism. I think the west has done a great disfavor to Christendom as a whole with this relatively new belief about End Times, that is riddled with error.
Blessings Bubba
 
Rev 3:10-11 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

This Simply means that at the 6th Trumpet (Seal and Vials), that after the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who stands in the place of God, saying he is God, or his equal, That soon after that his coming won't be long!

Mat 24:37-46 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

This Basically Means Those Who are Doing God's Work, Will Still Be Doing There Business, Which is to Testify against Satan, not Be Taken In by all the stuff he offers, which is Peace on Earth (temporary), and Provisions for Everyone (That accepts him and his Mark). Not being Raptured away (taken).

Rev 6:12 6th SEAL, GREAT EARTHQUAKE; and the SUN became BLACK as sackcloth, and the MOON became as BLOOD.
Rev 6:13 The stars (FALLEN ANGELS, CAST OUT!) of heaven FELL TO EARTH, as a fig tree casteth UNTIMELY FIGS, when SHAKEN of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 The HEAVEN DEPARTS, every MOUNTAIN and ISLAND were MOVED out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the GREAT men and MIGHTY MEN (RENOWN MEN OF OLD?) HID themselves in the earth.
Rev 6:16 SAYING rocks, Fall on us, and HIDE US FROM THE face of the THRONE, AND from the WRATH of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here you can see using the simplest of the 3 (the Seals). That (I believe) is when Anti-Christ declares he is God, that these things happen.
 
Second coming

Hi DezeraysHammer:

For the word 'quickly', my Young's Concordance indeed shows the word in Greek is 'tachu' = Quickly, speedily. The words "without delay" are not there. Is this perchance your interpretation?

If you insist it should be 'soon' then you must be consistent and use 'soon' in these other verses in Revelation:
Rev. 2:5; 2:16; 3:11; 11:14; 22:7; and 22:12.
You will find it doesn't make sense for the word to be 'soon'; but it does if 'quickly is used.

And the same goes for 22:20, "I come quickly"; or to use the other word from Young's Con.: "I come speedily."
And isn't that the way he will come?---Quickly, speedily. In Matt. 24:27 Jesus say "For as the lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." NIV.
Other places say "he will come as a thief in the night". In secret, than, all of a sudden, he is here.

Another clarification seems important. Rev. 1:1 reads thus in the NIV:
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." The KJV has "shortly".

I don't know how many theologians read this as "soon" and thus believe the chronological events started when John wrote the book back in the first century A.D. So, the seven churches are aligned with the 2000+ years of church history.

BUT if they would only look at the Greek text they would find the words
"en taxei" which means "in haste" or "quickly".
Once the events in Revelation start, things will occur 'quickly' or 'swiftly', just as we read in those verses listed above.

Revelation is, IMO, still in the future, for John writes in 1:10 "I was in spirit in the Lord's day", a literal rendention from the CV. This is the 'day of the Lord' with John showing the emphasis is the 'day' which is now occurring.

Bick
 
BUT if they would only look at the Greek text they would find the words
"en taxei" which means "in haste" or "quickly".
Once the events in Revelation start, things will occur 'quickly' or 'swiftly', just as we read in those verses listed above.

Let’s look at another usage and see what it means:

Act 25:4 Then indeed Festus answered that Paul should be kept at Caesarea; he himself would depart shortly.

Act 25:4 ὁ μὲν οὖν Φῆστος ἀπεκρίθη τηρεῖσθαι τὸν Παῦλον ἐν Καισαρείᾳ, ἑαυτὸν δὲ μέλλειν ἐν τάχει ἐκπορεύεσθαι·

In your interpretation it would mean Paul was to leave in a quick manner whenever he decided to leave. That could be in an hour or a year, just whenever he leaves do so quickly. Does that make any sense?

It seems it is an indication of “when†he should leave, not “howâ€Â. The same is true of Rev. 1:1, especially when given the follow-up context of verse 3:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.


If you insist it should be 'soon' then you must be consistent and use 'soon' in these other verses in Revelation:
Rev. 2:5; 2:16; 3:11; 11:14; 22:7; and 22:12.


Bingo! The Revelation has bookends of when the events were to occur:


Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
 
I would like to thank all the people who have responded to this thread. In response to Bick the online Strong’s Concordance provided by Crosswalk.com does indeed have the definition of tachu I previously provided with the words “quickly, speedily (without delay)â€Â. If you don't believe me just click the below link.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Gre ... ersion=kjv

I’d like to address the interpretation of “quickly†(Rev. 22:20) in the sense of “how†verses “when.†Just about every Bible I’ve consulted has tachu translated “soon†instead of “quickly†in this verse. This tells me that there is a general consensus among Bible scholars that when John quoted Jesus as saying “… Surely I come quickly…†he was referring to “when†(soon) and not “how†(quickly – i.e. as a thief in the night). Yes, tachu can indeed mean speedily (i.e. Mt. 28:7), but I think it’s quite clear that this is not what John meant. After all, he begins his letter (1:3) by saying “… the time is at hand [imminent, soon to come pass]â€Â. Now this is not to say that the day of the Lord will not be sudden (swift), according to the Bible it will be (2 Peter 3:10). It’s just to say that Scripture seems to convey the message that the return of Christ will be both sudden and soon.

PS: I don't understand the logic behind you saying that if tachu is translated "soon" in one verse it must be translated "soon" in all verses. In cases of multiple word definitions context must determine what is being said. I have no problems with the KJV's translation of tachu as "quickly" in Rev 22:20. My problem is with the interpretation of it as meaning "how" vs. "when."
 
However, here we are some 2000 years later and Jesus has not returned. [/quote] Don't you know that a thousand years is but a day to the Lord. so actually it has only been 2 days, which is not very long. :wink: :o
 
II Peter 3:1 "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance;"

II Peter 3:2 "That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:"

II Peter 3:3 "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"

II Peter 3:4 "And saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? for since the father fell asleep, all thing continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

I posted those verses to say,God is not on your time.

There is a much deeper meaning to this chapter also,will share with you all one day,for those who don't know
 
Revelation is future, the key being Rev.1:10, where John writes, "he was in spirit in the Lord's day (the day of the Lord)." Parenthesis mine.

John used 'the Lord's day' for it was that 'day' of the Lord where he was 'in spirit'.

The book has to do with Israel and the nations.

For a complete commentary, with verses and logic, go to http://philologos.org/__eb-ta/default.htm. The title is "the Apocalypse" by E.W. Bullinger.

As for Christ telling John that he, Christ Jesus, would be coming soon....How could he say that when he told the disciples "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Acts 1:7, AV.

So, Christ doesn't know the time of his coming again, whether sooner or later.
 
Act 25:4 Then indeed Festus answered that Paul should be kept at Caesarea; he himself would depart shortly.

Act 25:4 ο̆μὲν οὖν ΦηÂÃĀο ἀÀεκÃÂιÌÂθη ÄηÃÂειÂÃθαι Äὸν ΠαÅÂλον ἐν ΚαιÃαÃÂειÌÂαÃ…, εÌâ€ÃŽÂ±Ã…Äὸν δὲ μεÌÂλλειν ἐν ÄαÌÂÇει ἐκÀοÃÂεÃ…ÌÂεÃθαι·

In your interpretation it would mean Paul was to leave in a quick manner whenever he decided to leave. That could be in an hour or a year, just whenever he leaves do so quickly. Does that make any sense?

ANSWER: No, that wouldn't be my interpretation at all. Festus says "he himself" would depart shortly. It has nothing to do with Paul.

As for leaving "shortly", we read in vs.6 he "tarried among them more than ten days", which, to me is not "shortly". I interpret it that when Festus finally went down to Caesarea, he went quickly.

While it is true, that the translation of a word must consider the context, you might note in the index-lexicon in a concordance, such as Young's or Strong's, that in the family of Greek words based on 'taxeos', the great majority are translated as "quickly, hastily, speedily, swiftly, etc."
 
See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 &

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 (New International Version)

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

18Therefore encourage each other with these words.


1 Thessalonians 5

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,

2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.


4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.

7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.



1 Corinthians 15:51-58 too


51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedâ€â€

52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[a]

55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
 
The Fallacy of Time Management - http://www.FaithInTheWorkplace.com

... for us the contents and limits of a period of time are generally " ... unwise men but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. ( Eph. ...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/workpl ... ement.html

A Challenge from Promise Keepers - "Redeem the Time" at Marion

The conference theme is from Ephesians 5:16 "Let us redeem the time for the days are evil. ... play to bring about God's will for men to redeem the time. ...

http://www.youraffordablewebsite.com/db/Marion

Redeem the Time - Dr. Shelton Smith

"Redeeming the time, because the days are evil."–Eph. ... Let the excitement show! This excitement is not just for the big day. ...

http://www.swordofthelord.com/archives/ ... heTime.htm

The days of Noah

That need is even greater for us today as we clearly see that day approaching. ... May you redeem the time, in whatever way God is calling you to, making the most ...

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies ... ofnoah.htm

HOW IS TIME TO BE REDEEMED?

... these words also, linked to redeeming your time: "because the days are evil" ... sister Martha; by that you will redeem on time soon, for your walk will be ...

http://www.geocities.com/gospelandreviv ... n_time.htm

SWSBS: Garner on wasting time

... as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil," Ephesians 5:15-16. The ... Haste let us carry God's precious message, guiding the erring back to ...

http://www.swsbs.edu/pages/writings/Garner/time.html

Redeeming the Time (PDF)

Redeeming the Time "Redeeming the time, because the days are evil." Ephesians 5:16 ... With its birth to come the prospect of 365 days for us to spend. ...

http://www.geocities.com/kjvbiblestudytools/E0005.pdf

WHAT ABOUT TIME? - (SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD)

How are we utilizing the time that God has granted to us to improve for His ... unwise men but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. ...

http://www.jlfoundation.net/time.html

A Fascinating New Look at ..

Let us notice once again the time sequence of events as they are portrayed in ... not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. ...

http://www.triumphpro.com/1260,1290,1335.htm
 
Did you hear me on Howard's Review @ http://www.revelationTV.com @ 10.40 last Thursday night?

I'd been in the bath while a few folk called the Rapture 'false doctrine'

Then one of the co-hosts said that, though he believed in the Rapture, no-one had ever shown him any Scriptures to say why it would be pre-trib: before the Great Tribulation, the worst time on Earth comes

He asked if anyone could ring in with just one

I quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

The Coming of the Lord

13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.


1 Thessalonians 5

1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.


5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


& 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & Matt 24:30-42

Also how the church is still on Earth in Revelation 2-3

Then Rev 4:1 says 'Come up'

& the Great Tribulation doesn't start till Rev 6

I said Revelation prophesied the classic escalation pattern

Rev 6:8 says

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Then Rev 9:13-18 says

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns[a] of the golden altar that is before God.

14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.

18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

& total Armageddon isn't till Revelation 16

He asked @ the 'saints' later in Rev (than Rev 6) & I said that, after the Rapture, many folk will realise their werror & 144,000 Jewish evangelists will preach worldwide

He asked where it says that & replied Rev 14 but he'd craftily turned my volume off so that no anwer I tries after that was heard on TV

I did say how the Bible say "NOW is the acceptable time: behold, NOW is the Day of salvation"

It says, "TODAY, if you hear God's voice - (as God's Word is faithfully preached) - don't harden your heart"

It says, "How can we escape if we neglect such great salvation?"


What they cut off was that Jesus said that this 'fig tree' generation will be 'cut short' by the Rapture - 'otherwise no flesh would be left alive' - Matt 24

As I've often preached in NW & N Wales precincts, the 'birthpains' intensify & accelerate to bring on that Great Delivery

That's why Jesus, when He prophesied such awful signs to show His return was approaching & 'even at the door', could say, "Don't be afraid...don't be alarmed...trust in God...trust in Me"

Don't call what God's Word clearly teaches 'false doctrine' - that is calling God a liar

Like the folk who say there will be no Millenium rule of Christ when Zechariah 14, Isaiah 65-66 & Revalation 20 clearly promise that He will rule Earth from Jerusalem, with a rod of iron, & bring perfect peace & justice

See http://www.BibleGateway.org

Must go!

Ian
 
I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.

It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

I Corinthians 15:53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

"Mortal" means "liable to die" in the Greek. At the last trump the Christians who stand against Satan, and his system, will have their immortality, however, those who fall for Antichrist and his system, will have to wait until after the 1000 years. "Corruptible into incorruption" is refering to the flesh body changing into the body such as the angels have, a spiritual body. Whereas the eternal condition of the soul is only extended to those who have not yielded to the Antichrist, For they only are the victors at the seventh trump. You put on immortality through Christ who set the way.

I Corinthians 15:54, "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.

Many people have images of massive numbers of people flying away, with all sorts of accidents taking place; however, the Bible doesn't tell us it will be in that manner. In Revelation 11, it tells us exactly three and a half days prior what will happen, and the whole world will know about it, for it is no hidden mystery. That is when the Antichrist will end his reign by killing God's two witnesses, and send the world into a three and a half day party of celebration.

In Revelation 11 the world will know the two witnesses, for the disruption they have caused, and the world will watch as they are killed, and their dead bodies are put on display in a wide street [arena]. Are you still looking for a rapture, well my friend, at the end of the three and half day period it will be a time of great shame for you, For as Revelation 9:4 points out, the truth will not be sealed in your mind, and God is going to turn you over to Antichrist. The "rapture theory", could be the death warrant of your very soul, or a commitment of your soul to great shame. If you believe in the "Rapture theory" you will be on the side of Antichrist, and will fly with anyone, because you just don't understand the Word of God.

Remember, Two bodies will be in the streets of Jerusalem for three days, causing a world wide massive party...that is your warning just before Jesus Christ return to this earth. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Revelation 11:9; "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

They simple do not want these bodies to come alive, or claim life when they in fact are dead. The world is witness to the corps of the two bodies. And they will think of all the damage these two prophets did to their crops and property; and most of all, the insults the witnesses gave this first Christ {Antichrist}, whom they all believed to be Jesus. Antichrist did as their rapture theory promised it would do. They got their wing's all right, straight to Satan's camp.

Revelation 11:10; "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

The torment the two gave the world was naming the Antichrist, Satan. This was unthinkable, for their traditions taught them otherwise.

Revelation 11:11; "And after three and an half [days] the spirit [breath] of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

Did you catch the time frame here? It's three and a half days following the death of two witnesses that the world will rejoice over their death.

When the whole world celebrates, you better be getting ready to meet your maker. Friend, the only flying out of here is by the two witnesses, and it is recorded here. God's elect will be changed here at this time.

Revelation 11:12; "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them [two witnesses], Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

There is no secret to this rapture, of two, for who are their enemies? Those who were against God's two witnesses.

Revelation 11:13; "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

This is Satan, and his fallen angels [that locust army of Revelation 9] that were caste out with him.

The remnent who gave God the glory, are God's elect, and those who are sealed of God, including the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. Those are the ones chosen to stand against the Antichrist, and only them. The traditions of men will be preached right up to the seventh trump. What happens then at the seventh trump? Well, that is what First Thessalonians 4 is all about. "The gathering back to Christ at the seventh trumpet".

Revelation 11:14-15; "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." [verse 14] "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The Kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." [verse 15] THIS IS THE SEVENTH TRUMP.

You, as a Christian now know exactly what is to transpire for three and a half days prior to the sounding of the seventh trump. You will see the murder of the two witnesses, observe the massive celebration, and then be changed to another form before Christ returns to this earth. It's all in God's holy plan, and Paul, John, Peter, Mark, Luke as well as Jesus certainly do not want you ignorant of these facts.

There is no FLY AWAY, no dodging of the tribulation of the Antichrist and his system's deceptions, but Christ will come and establish His kingdom on earth, and you will see it in your spiritual body. Got it?

Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul was a Hebrew scholar, not a Greek scholar. He studied under one of the greatest Hebrew teachers of His time. Paul spoke street Greek. The word "cloud", Paul used to express a fact of many people gathering into one body.

In Hebrews 12:1, they are gathering to run a foot race. When they run, the racers bunch up into a pack, This bunching of the runners, Paul calls a "cloud". "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

The whole idea of the "rapture", or fly away doctrine started in 1830, in Scotland by a mentally ill woman, who was having strange visions in her sickness. It is documented in the book, "The incredible Cover-up", by Dave MacPherson.

This mentally ill woman, Margaret MacDonald, by her own admission, said that when this vision came to her, it was evil. Do you know why it was evil? It was Satan that gave it to her, because it is a lie. Those who listen and believe it are believing in a lie, and very shortly this lie will cause them to follow Antichrist, who will appear on this earth first, before the True Christ.

There were two reverends of the "Brethren Church", and their posting of this damnable doctrine in their churches allowed both to have equal credit for this doctrine called the "any moment doctrine". Today the American Brethren Churches proudly take credit for the growth of this evil infestation into over 95% of all Protestant churches in America.

Friend, It's not in the Word of God. Christ is coming here to earth to establish His kingdom here. There is no in-between. To make this damnable doctrine into the Scripture, is to force a lie into the Word of God. Go back through the verses given in this I Thessalonians 4:13-19, and all related verses. Try to understand that Christ's return for His saints is at the last trump, and remember, Satan [Antichrist] arrives at the fifth trump [see Revelation 9:1-4].

There are many "raisings to the Lord", because every time someone died, there is a raising for that soul to go to the presence of the Lord. "Resurrect" has several meanings in the Bible, in fact every time you stand up for Jesus, you are "resurrected". It means a new life, whether by death, or by the redemption of your soul to a new life in Christ.

Paul is only talking about "where are the dead", Don't allow the Bible tricksters to deceive your mind into a position of grabbing hold of the first Christ on the earth. It's just not worth the risk of entertaining the thought for a minute. It's not hard to check it out for your self, Trust God's word, and check it out in "Strong's Concordance, which is numbered to the Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries. If you can work a English dictionary, you can use these dictionaries.

"Air" in the Greek dictionary is #109, and is the "breath of life", your "breath of life" body is your soul or spiritual body.

http://www.theseason.org/1thess/1thess4.htm
 
DezeraysHammer said:
Something has been bothering me for some time now and I thought I should get some input from professing believers. It pertains to the second coming of Christ. A while back I was reading the book of Revelation when I ran across verse 22:20 “… Surely, I [Jesus] come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus†(KJV – see also 3:11; 22:2,7,12). Out of curiosity I looked up the word “quickly†in my Strong’s Concordance and it had this word and definition: Grk. Tachu (adv.) – quickly, speedily (without delay). Expressed is the idea that Jesus would return very soon. In fact most Bible versions translate the word “soon†and The Message goes so far as to paraphrase “’…. I’m on my way! I’ll be there soon!’ Yes; Come, Master Jesus!†(22:20). I also looked for other Bible verses that used the word "tachu" and none of them corresponded to an extended delay (over many years), all meant "soon" quite literally. It's quite clear that the New Testament encourages believers to mature in Christ with the expectation that Jesus would be returning “soon.†However, here we are some 2000 years later and Jesus has not returned. I'm having trouble seeing how this is not a Bible contradiction. I’ve tried talking with my friends about this issue but they typically brush off the topic with the excuse that the word “soon†is relative and that it could basically mean at any time. They also explain that God’s concept of time is different from ours, so we can’t really know what “soon†means. However, in my studies it seems that when God speaks to mankind through Scripture He does so in terms man can understand. For example, in the book of Genesis it is written that God created the world and all things in it in six days and rested on the seventh. The majority of Christians that I know take this quite literally. When the Bible says that Jesus arose on the third day believers also take that literally. However when John records Jesus as saying “…. I come quickly [soon]†all of a sudden time is relative and “soon†could mean anything?

I’ve heard some believers state that what’s taking so long is that certain things have to happen before the return of Christ (i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Luke 17:20-37) and that things are definately shaping up for His return. Some even point to technological advancements as “evidence†for the approaching of Christ's return. But when I read Scripture it’s quite apparent that the New Testament believers actually thought Christ would return “soonâ€Â, most probably in their time or shortly thereafter. Paul apparently believed that he lived in the “last days†(Hebrews 1:1-2). Peter believed that “… the end of all things is at hand [draws near, approaches]†(1 Peter 4:7). Throughout the book of Revelation John encourages believes to 'shape up before they ship out', believing that Jesus would return “soonâ€Â. So if the return of Christ would be thousands of years later, then why were these divinely inspired New Testament writers so convinced that Jesus would return very soon? And why did John use a certain word (tachu) when quoting Jesus as saying He would come "soon" if divine foresight should have known that 2000 years later Christ would not have returned? He could have easily said "some day", "eventually", or "after much time passes" instead. These questions are very bothersome to me and have really hurt my faith. Worst of all I'm criticized by some of my friends for "doubting" despite the fact that I'm just quoting Scripture. Any help would be appreciated.

When compared to eternity, thousands of years is like a second to God. So yes, Jesus will come like the twinkling of an eye. :)
 

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