Theological reasons for debating...

[cyberjosh]

I bring this topic up to also check my own motives as well, but I hope this generates some interesting discussion. I want you to all step back for a moment and evaluate why you debate - including what specific topics you engage in (why those specific topics?) - and what theological reasons do you have for doing so, meaning: are they profitable for instruction, or combatting false doctrine, etc.? Are your discussions on the boards here for you to learn something? Are you trying to teach something? To what end?

For what Scriptural reasons do you (we) debate? How are we different from the Pharisees who squabbled amongst themselves over things in the Scriptures? (*Note: I'm not suggesting anything, but rather testing you with an answer already in mind)

And here is another test question: Why do we use Scripture when debating? How does the verse "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life" shed light on the answer? Why do we use Scripture? What is it for - just to back up arguements? Some of you wiser ones here know the real answer...the Scriptural answer.

Contemplate on this and then give me some feedback.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

I bring this topic up to also check my own motives as well, but I hope this generates some interesting discussion. I want you to all step back for a moment and evaluate why you debate - including what specifics topic you engage in (why those specific topics?) - and what theological reasons do you have for doing so, meaning: are they profitable for instruction, or combatting false doctrine, etc.? Are your discussions on the boards here for you to learn something? Are you trying to teach something? To what end?

For what Scriptural reasons do you (we) debate? How are we different from the Pharisees who squabbled amongst themselves over things in the Scriptures? (*Note: I'm not suggesting anything, but rather testing you with an answer already in mind)

And here is another test question: Why do we use Scripture when debating? How does the verse "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life" shed light on the answer? Why do we use Scripture? What is it for - just to back up arguements? Some of you wiser ones here know the real answer...the Scriptural answer.

Contemplate on this and then give me some feedback.

God Bless,

~Josh

This should be interesting...

Regards

 

[Imagican]

I believe that EVERYONE is able to answer the question that you asked concerning the ACTUAL scripture.

I debate issues for THIS reason and THIS reason ALONE. I have visited the churches. I have HEARD what they have to offer. And I have SEEN the lackluster in the eyes of those that follow. And I KNOW the REASON.

I KNOW what has been altered in my life and KNOW HOW it was done. I would offer ANY willing to listen an opportunity to UNDERSTAND what I have been 'given' in understanding. WITHOUT a 'church' TELLING me ANYTHING.

I was given an opportunity of a lifetime. On the HOUSE. Over a SOLID year of study and prayer with ALMOST NOTHING in the 'way' of it. This study included a NUMBER of topics that I read through the ENTIRE Bible in EACH ONE. 'Trinity', 'the law', 'LOVE', FALSE PROPHETS, 'TRUTH'.

NO, I do NOT have a COMPLETE understanding of ANYTHING. But I have an understanding that goes LIGHT YEARS BEYOND ANYTHING that I have listened to in the churches.

I have had a NUMBER of individuals, (in churches and out), suggest that I become a minister. I can ONLY LAUGH and offer this; Who REALLY WANTS to hear the TRUTH. Those that want entertainment have already chosen who they are going to listen to. I don't have that to offer. Only boring and scarry TRUTH.

And regardless of what others may or may NOT think; my understanding IS backed BY SCRIPTURE. And MOST scripture MUST be proven by OTHER scripture to BE TRUTH. One NEEDS to compare one scripture to ALL others in order to be assured that it is CORRECT in their interpretation. For a 'line of scipture' taken OUT OF CONTEXT can mean most ANYTHING one chooses it to.

So, cyber, I am here to offer FREELY what has been SO FREELY offered to me. Warning about that which is 'man-made' and 'truth' concerning what is MOST important in The Word and our relationship with God through His Son.

Oh, and it pains me GREATLY to 'see' how some are so EASILY led into acceptance of 'false teaching'. And how adamantly they will defend it even when confronted with the TRUTH. I can't emphasize ENOUGH that the words of the Bible are TRUTH and one of the most important one's to realize is this; There WILL be those that CHOOSE to follow lies, and for these, God WILL offer STRONG DELUSION so that they will BELIEVE these lies'. The importance of this cannot be emphasized ENOUGH. For it is APPARENT to any that have studied the LEAST amount concerning denominations and history that there have been movements of MILLIONS Of people that have followed IN VAIN. Simply because that CHOSE to follow lies. And MANY of these would be willing to DIE for their beliefs; EVEN THOUGH they were WRONG.

I will let this go on a bit before I give the scripture that you seek. It would be too SOON to offer it NOW. Give it a 'minute' and I'm quite sure that your question is NOT as 'tricky' as you think.

MEC

 

[dancing queen]

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

If an unbeliever questions me on something, I want to be able to answer. This forum helps me to think about possible questions, and ways to answer. The debates mean I consider what my answer would be more closely. I also think its my job to equip my youth group with an ability to defend their faith, so I encourage debate issues to check we are sure of our answer and that they are right with God.

 

[Drew]

I believe in the following general principle: incorrect theology ultimately manifests itself in bad life decisions. Sometimes the connection between a seemingly arcane item of theology and the nuts and bolts of daily living is hard, if not impossible, to identify. But I believe it is there.

I argue against Calvinism a lot. I think that it is a destructive system of beliefs whose impact on life decisions can be profound. However, I would say that my main reason for rejecting the form of Calvinism that I see presented on these boards has more to do with what I believe is very weak Scriptural support.

I also argue for the position that the lost are ultimately annihilated and do not experience eternal conscious existence. Again, I think there are real and negative consequences to the kingdom of believing in the eternality of Hell. And I also think that the Scriptures do not support that position.

I am not sure that I think in terms of "scriptural reasons" to debate. I believe in the concept that people learn by arguing the merits of any position (whether theological or otherwise). The forum is a "marketplace of ideas" and people can, if they are willing, choose to "shop" and possibly improve the correctness of their worldview.

Or, as some do, they can refuse to accept their own need to learn and see the forum as a way to indoctrinate others through the use of shallow rhetoric and pontification.

I take a rather pragmatic view: we learn best in a community where ideas are exchanged. And improving the truthfulness of one's theology blesses all.

 

[Veritas]

Good topic.

I'm with destiny. One of my main interests here is talking with atheists/agnostics and those who are searching. I like these boards because it gives me time to sit down, contemplate and gather my thoughts. It really helps me with witnessing on my feet in person because I know what to expect as questions and have already thought through the answers on this forum. I have a deep concern for those who are lost and desire that they might know that they have purpose and are loved.

I also like to work towards clarity and truth, which is why I get into debates theologically with other Christians. I do admit in my sinful state I don't have the perfect theology and so I learn on some things.

Overall, I believe the truth to be plain and simple. I believe "I get it", along with many others here. But I do get concerned about things that I see as leading people away from God's Word so I do debate about that. I hold the Bible as a final authority and believe that God can speak through it on these forums so I use it heavily. Personally, I have to watch it, because I need to remember that ultimately, God is doing the conversion and/or conviction with His Holy Spirit and I need not get so frustrated.

 

[destiny]

Veritas, I think you meant, "i'm with dancing queen", not 'destiny'.

 

[Veritas]

: Oops! Yup, that's what I mean. Just saw the "d" and my mind was already running along to the next thing!

 

[destiny]

: Oops! Yup, that's what I mean. Just saw the "d" and my mind was already running along to the next thing!

I'm not accustomed to agreement... scared me there for a minute. :o

 

[Veritas]

Didn't mean to scare ya so much destiny!









...psst... I do agree with your signature...

:o

 

[Rick W]

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Isaiah 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
Isaiah 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
Isaiah 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
Isaiah 61:9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Isaiah 61:11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

 

[cyberjosh]

I've seen some good discussion in here so far. Let me address a few things:

So, cyber, I am here to offer FREELY what has been SO FREELY offered to me. Warning about that which is 'man-made' and 'truth' concerning what is MOST important in The Word and our relationship with God through His Son.

That's good. What I made this thread for was so people can "keep their eye on the ball", because sometimes people get bogged down in the discussions/debates themselves and don't quite look where they were trying to go with it or why it matters.

Oh, and it pains me GREATLY to 'see' how some are so EASILY led into acceptance of 'false teaching'. And how adamantly they will defend it even when confronted with the TRUTH. I can't emphasize ENOUGH that the words of the Bible are TRUTH and one of the most important one's to realize is this; There WILL be those that CHOOSE to follow lies, and for these, God WILL offer STRONG DELUSION so that they will BELIEVE these lies'. The importance of this cannot be emphasized ENOUGH. For it is APPARENT to any that have studied the LEAST amount concerning denominations and history that there have been movements of MILLIONS Of people that have followed IN VAIN. Simply because that CHOSE to follow lies. And MANY of these would be willing to DIE for their beliefs; EVEN THOUGH they were WRONG.

This is certainly a good endeavor to distinguish between false teaching in Scripture but not every one who would disagree with you is necessarily ignorant of Scripture. Those who know Scripture may have sincere and legitimate objections but the point is to make the discussion profitable whichever way the discussion goes.

I believe in the following general principle: incorrect theology ultimately manifests itself in bad life decisions. Sometimes the connection between a seemingly arcane item of theology and the nuts and bolts of daily living is hard, if not impossible, to identify. But I believe it is there.

That's exactly why I talk on the boards here is because certain beliefs can lead you to living in a different way than you should, and I've even experienced it in my own life, thus why I seek to help people avoid what I've gone through.

I argue against Calvinism a lot. I think that it is a destructive system of beliefs whose impact on life decisions can be profound. However, I would say that my main reason for rejecting the form of Calvinism that I see presented on these boards has more to do with what I believe is very weak Scriptural support.

Yes I can see where that might be a good point to press. Though I must say Spurgeon still turned out alright, but of course he was a "stand in the gap" thinker and he said that he believed everything his calvinistic brethren did but also believed a little more than they did, and went on to site & quote the verses that talked about Man's responsibility in the salvation/sanctification issue.

I also argue for the position that the lost are ultimately annihilated and do not experience eternal conscious existence. Again, I think there are real and negative consequences to the kingdom of believing in the eternality of Hell. And I also think that the Scriptures do not support that position.

Not here to debate, but actually I wouldn't find that topic as life impacting as you would think, unless you take the position you just did (nihilism). Infact I rarely talk about that topic, but I actually think teaching nihilism gives unbelievers something to look forward to. The Bible often talks about how it would have been better for a wicked man never to have been born, and nihilism would give the wicked that eternal peace that would be the same as if he had never been born.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Drew]

I think this is an important issue. I have encountered quite a few believers who will claim that "theology" does not matter, followed up with variants on "all we need to do is live good lives and let others worry about the technicalities of theology".

Theology is important precisely because of the cause and effect link that exists between "what you believe" and "how you act in the world". As stated before, the subtlety of these connections (in many cases) does not change the fact that the connections are real.

We also need to politely but firmly rebuke those who set themselves up as authorities on what makes up "correct" theology and yet do not provide a sound scriptural defense. We need to think hard and carefully about what we believe and not be swayed by arguments that attempt to promote certain theological positions by such tactics as, for example, simply claiming that opponents are "children of Lucifer".

 

[francisdesales]

I think this is an important issue. I have encountered quite a few believers who will claim that "theology" does not matter, followed up with variants on "all we need to do is live good lives and let others worry about the technicalities of theology".

Theology is important precisely because of the cause and effect link that exists between "what you believe" and "how you act in the world". As stated before, the subtlety of these connections (in many cases) does not change the fact that the connections are real.

We also need to politely but firmly rebuke those who set themselves up as authorities on what makes up "correct" theology and yet do not provide a sound scriptural defense. We need to think hard and carefully about what we believe and not be swayed by arguments that attempt to promote certain theological positions by such tactics as, for example, simply claiming that opponents are "children of Lucifer".

Very good post. Poor theology leads to poor morale decisions.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

I argue against Calvinism a lot. I think that it is a destructive system of beliefs whose impact on life decisions can be profound. However, I would say that my main reason for rejecting the form of Calvinism that I see presented on these boards has more to do with what I believe is very weak Scriptural support.

I believe that God is sovereign an all things and that would include our salvation. I think this type of theology gives God all the glory and is a very constructive system.I also believe that Calvinsm is supported by Scripture and freewill people have no Scriptural support. So we debate.
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

I believe that God is sovereign an all things and that would include our salvation. I think this type of theology gives God all the glory and is a very constructive system.I also believe that Calvinsm is supported by Scripture and freewill people have no Scriptural support. So we debate.
Bubba

Of course God is sovereign in all things. But how does man having free will necessitate God losing sovereignty when He exists in the past, present and future simultaneously, thus, knowing our choices? It's not like God is going to be surprised or have to "replan" anything because of our choices.

Love requires a choice. Commandments given require a choice. That is Scripture, and Calvinism ignores that man will be judged based on his response to God's commands and God's Love.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Of course God is sovereign in all things. But how does man having free will necessitate God losing sovereignty when He exists in the past, present and future simultaneously, thus, knowing our choices? It's not like God is going to be surprised or have to "replan" anything because of our choices.

Love requires a choice. Commandments given require a choice. That is Scripture, and Calvinism ignores that man will be judged based on his response to God's commands and God's Love.

Regards

Man will be either inslave to Satan or God's will there is no in between, Until the Sovereign Lord out of His own pleasure causes regeneration, for the natural man will never believe that which is Spiritually discerned nor would he want to.
Romans3:10-18, Ephesians 2:1-10, 1 Corinthians 2:14

Let God's word be true,and not make statements like "love requres a choice" when the Bible is very clear that man in the ungenerated state will never choose God. 'What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness withGod?Certainly not! For He says to Moses I will have mercy on whomever I will, and compassion on whomever I will ,SO THEN IT IS NOT OF HIM WHO WILLS ,NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, BUT OF GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY" Romans 9:14-16. The context was Esau I hated and Jacob I love.
Bubba (that why we debate Cyber)

 

[francisdesales]

Man will be either inslave to Satan or God's will there is no in between, Until the Sovereign Lord out of His own pleasure causes regeneration, for the natural man will never believe that which is Spiritually discerned nor would he want to. Romans3:10-18, Ephesians 2:1-10, 1 Corinthians 2:14

I agree that there is no in between. But we have the choice to choose to be enslaved to God or ourselves (sin).

Let God's word be true,and not make statements like "love requres a choice" when the Bible is very clear that man in the ungenerated state will never choose God.

Never?

EVER???

I would say that Scriptures show that God does not desire men to die - that God desires ALL men to be saved. Since all men are NOT saved, isn't God powerful enough to save ALL men, or does God allow men to decide to repent or not? The Bible clearly shows that God's salvation is universally applied. And some men DO repent...

The soul that sinneth, the same shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and the father shall not bear the iniquity of the son: the justice of the just shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? Ez 18:20-24

Clearly, God does NOT WILL that men die in the absolute sense. When men refuse to obey His commandments and remain in their wickedness, God gives man what he wants. I would also like to point out that this section not only hurts the "man cannot turn to God idea", but it also hurts the "the saved can never turn away from God". This is a lethal blow to Calvinism...

'What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness withGod?Certainly not! For He says to Moses I will have mercy on whomever I will, and compassion on whomever I will ,SO THEN IT IS NOT OF HIM WHO WILLS ,NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, BUT OF GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY" Romans 9:14-16. The context was Esau I hated and Jacob I love.

Out of context, Bubba. Perhaps you should consult the OT passage that Paul quotes in Romans. He is refering to a nation, not a person...

Regards

 

[Bubba]

francisdesale,
Start another topic if you want to debate Calvinism. Nation's not individuals, whose kidding who, nice try see verse 11 and 23-24.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

I forgot verse 6, Bubba