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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Theological reasons for debating...
- Thread starter cyberjosh
- Start date
lovely
Member
Hi Cyber,
I had a lot of thoughts come all at once when I read the OP. I am just going to list some of them.
I think that good arguments are not enough when it comes to discussing God's Word. Sometimes I fail to think like a believer, and I rely on things that are man-centered. What I am learning, or rather unlearning, is that the mechanics of an argument can not stand alone. Even someone who has no skills in debating logically can have the Truth of God. The point is, they simply mean nothing when no one can hear what's contained in it. As a believer I have learned that the Holy Spirit must prepare hearts to hear, and that I need to listen to His prompting in order to speak when it's the right time...His time. I find that He prepares them, and gives me the words to speak...if I ask for them.
I am also learning that the principal of gleaning is better than trusting that any man-made source is nearly always credible, or that it is entirely wrong. Truth must be gathered, and the Source for Truth is always God...everything, or everyone, else is just a vessel. I think if this principal is applied then faith is put only in God, and not in men...or man-centered ideas. It also forces us to depend more on Him for our spiritual nourishment, and not to seek out fads or traditions...junk food.
I think that discussion is good when it is done in the spirit of genuine love. It is more listening than speaking, though, and if we love God...as Christ loved the Father...then we only speak His doctrine. We decrease...as John the Baptist did...so that He may increase in the hearts of men.
Just a few thoughts on the topic. The Lord bless all of you.
I had a lot of thoughts come all at once when I read the OP. I am just going to list some of them.
I think that good arguments are not enough when it comes to discussing God's Word. Sometimes I fail to think like a believer, and I rely on things that are man-centered. What I am learning, or rather unlearning, is that the mechanics of an argument can not stand alone. Even someone who has no skills in debating logically can have the Truth of God. The point is, they simply mean nothing when no one can hear what's contained in it. As a believer I have learned that the Holy Spirit must prepare hearts to hear, and that I need to listen to His prompting in order to speak when it's the right time...His time. I find that He prepares them, and gives me the words to speak...if I ask for them.
I am also learning that the principal of gleaning is better than trusting that any man-made source is nearly always credible, or that it is entirely wrong. Truth must be gathered, and the Source for Truth is always God...everything, or everyone, else is just a vessel. I think if this principal is applied then faith is put only in God, and not in men...or man-centered ideas. It also forces us to depend more on Him for our spiritual nourishment, and not to seek out fads or traditions...junk food.
I think that discussion is good when it is done in the spirit of genuine love. It is more listening than speaking, though, and if we love God...as Christ loved the Father...then we only speak His doctrine. We decrease...as John the Baptist did...so that He may increase in the hearts of men.
Just a few thoughts on the topic. The Lord bless all of you.
francisdesales
Member
Bubba said:
You didn't care for Ezekiel 18, did you...
I have no desire to start a topic on Calvinism. It is a morbid theology that distorts the Good News. I was merely making a comment about your introduction of Calvinism to this thread.
I will now stop and return to the thread subject.
Regards
Drew
Member
Obviously we do not all agree on the truth of Calvinism. However, I suspect that we would all agree that it is indeed important to arrive at the truth, whatever it turns out to be. This is because I suspect that we all agree that what we believe about the 5 points of Calvinism will have profound effects on how we live.
Another example of the importance of correct theology: environmentalism. If our "theology" views material reality of being "of a lesser order" or otherwise "inferior to" an unseen spiritual domain, this view will likely impact our ideas about the importance of preserving the natural world.
Another example of the importance of correct theology: environmentalism. If our "theology" views material reality of being "of a lesser order" or otherwise "inferior to" an unseen spiritual domain, this view will likely impact our ideas about the importance of preserving the natural world.
Yes I did and as I wrote earlier the Bible boils down to Law and Grace. Ezekiel 18 is expounding on the Law (which you can't keep, the moment you wake up to get out of bed) . Read Ezekiel 36:24-30, that is the Grace part that freewiller's can't swallow, because the simple truth is YOU can't accept that it is all of grace. But since you would never start a topic on the evil points of Calvinism, we will have to let it ride for a while.francisdesales said:
Bubba
ps did you not notice it was someone else bad mouthing Calvinism that "drew" me in?
francisdesales
Member
Bubba said:
I've already said that I would stick to the topic and not discuss Calvinism. By the way, I didn't say anything about the "evil points of Calvinism". Just being depressingly morbid. But we can address that later, as you said.
I understand your desire to defend your theology. I try to do that, as well, since Catholics lately wear a bulls-eye here.
Regards
lovely
Member
Drew wrote:
Drew, I wonder about this. If we take things like "correct theology", and we say that what we believe about these theologies affects the way we move in the material world, aren't we edging on simply just stereotyping one another and failing to give the supernatural work of God that changes someone's heart, and actions, enough credit in the process? Is Truth bound up in correct theology alone, or is it something more root and more powerful? Or, maybe our definition of theology is off. I am asking myself this as well, and certainly not seeking to argue with you...but really to understand your position better, and answer the questions that it brings up in my mind.
I think the Word, and the Holy Spirit, work together to teach us Truth, and that it changes us, but it certainly changes us before we have all of it...not that we will ever actually have it all. If one believes on Christ, and knows Him, and submits to Him in faith, then theology (as we define it) can be worked on, but I am not sure it will be their major focus, and I don't think it is the liberator in the process of maturing a believer. The Gospel is simple for that reason, I think. We do things for God, we grow, we change, we do more things for God, we grow, and we change. My theology, or yours, will change as the Lord changes us. This process seems to be unique for every believer in the details, but the same in other ways. I agree that debate is good for iron sharpening iron, but I also think it should be Spiritually based in Scripture, presented with a believer's worldview, and based in love, rather than a good argument of logic that may be rooted in man-centered ideas. I think denominations, and theologies, can promote man-centered ideas if we are not careful...including Calvinism.
The thing is, if I frame the teachings of Christ, or Scripture period, in a Calvinist frame...a 5 point even...then isn't your perception of how this becomes an outworking in my life going to be different than mine? If my heart is changed, and I am His workmanship created for good works in Christ, then is my theology...or your perception of it...going to keep me from the love and works that God has called me to? I think the body of Christ is made up of so many parts it is hard to know what the function of others may be. We must trust that Christ is their head if they confess faith in Him, and that He will eventually teach us not to frame His Word at all, but allow us to be free enough from the constraints of this world's cultures, and subcultures, to follow Him in His Truth alone...not ours. I would think such a feat is only by the Spirit, and that when we consider it that it should force us to a greater lowliness in our Spirit, and show us how far we have to go still. This drives us to move with the thought of only esteeming others, and hearing more...listening for His voice.
I want to try to give an example of what I am talking about exactly, and I will use Calvinism since I have some leanings, or gleanings, in that direction. One of the main problems that people have with Calvinism is, "how do we know who the elect is, and how does that affect our call to evangelize?" So, in someone else's opinion, Calvinists are not evangelical...and maybe many of them aren't very evangelical because of this very reason, or because they have not submitted to Christ's command to share the Gospel and disciple others. But, what about the others who are very evangelical because they believe that salvation is in God's hands and that He is longsuffering for the purpose of seeing His people gathered to Him...and that they are the tool He is using? Aren't these people also an example of an outworking of God's love in that same theology? My point is some have a stumbling block within that framework that must be removed, and others do not have it at all. Is the Truth ultimately a simple heart of obedience, and trust, toward Him? There is also just the percentage that are just tares within the church, and specifically in that denomination, that are just unloving period because they have not the love of the Father. I think we can see how the real theology that matters may be something deeper than our denominations, or theologies. This deeper theology, the doctrine of the Father, may be the only thing that causes believers to move from a spiritual worldview standpoint no matter what their (man-centered) theologies may be made up of. Right or wrong, Jesus is the Truth, and though we all my touch on it with our man-centered doctrines, it is the root believe that moves us, or grows us.
Another thing, isn't your perception of what liberates those things that bind me always going to be inaccurate, and vice-versa, when we are speaking about our individual relationships with Christ? If a certain theology is a stumbling block to you, and God helps you over that to draw you closer to Him, then is that stumbling block going to be the same for me...or will He possibly use something else? I think our growth patterns are different, and our paths are to get closer to Him have different starting points.
I hope some of this makes sense. I'd like to hear what you, and others, think about it, and how it relates to what our view of debate should be among ourselves...and with unbelievers. Paul often reasoned from Scripture with the Jews, and with the Greeks he reasoned with them from their religious perspective, and with rulers from theirs, and so on. The common thing is that it was always in love, and it always pointed to the cross. He seemed to have a knack for trying to go to their starting point to lead them there. I believe once they would get to the cross, then they would have their own outworking of the love within them...and that their true theology would align all the other beliefs that they had to unlearn.
I think correct theology is important. But, in it's root, it's only importance is the cross. Internally among believer's it should be loving and edifying. To unbelievers it should be oriented around the Gospel...it should start from where they are and lead them to the cross. Debate can be a tool for the Holy Spirit in a believer who's worldview is bound to Christ alone, and who desires to be led by the Spirit in hearing, and speaking. The Lord bless all of you.
Drew, I wonder about this. If we take things like "correct theology", and we say that what we believe about these theologies affects the way we move in the material world, aren't we edging on simply just stereotyping one another and failing to give the supernatural work of God that changes someone's heart, and actions, enough credit in the process? Is Truth bound up in correct theology alone, or is it something more root and more powerful? Or, maybe our definition of theology is off. I am asking myself this as well, and certainly not seeking to argue with you...but really to understand your position better, and answer the questions that it brings up in my mind.
I think the Word, and the Holy Spirit, work together to teach us Truth, and that it changes us, but it certainly changes us before we have all of it...not that we will ever actually have it all. If one believes on Christ, and knows Him, and submits to Him in faith, then theology (as we define it) can be worked on, but I am not sure it will be their major focus, and I don't think it is the liberator in the process of maturing a believer. The Gospel is simple for that reason, I think. We do things for God, we grow, we change, we do more things for God, we grow, and we change. My theology, or yours, will change as the Lord changes us. This process seems to be unique for every believer in the details, but the same in other ways. I agree that debate is good for iron sharpening iron, but I also think it should be Spiritually based in Scripture, presented with a believer's worldview, and based in love, rather than a good argument of logic that may be rooted in man-centered ideas. I think denominations, and theologies, can promote man-centered ideas if we are not careful...including Calvinism.
The thing is, if I frame the teachings of Christ, or Scripture period, in a Calvinist frame...a 5 point even...then isn't your perception of how this becomes an outworking in my life going to be different than mine? If my heart is changed, and I am His workmanship created for good works in Christ, then is my theology...or your perception of it...going to keep me from the love and works that God has called me to? I think the body of Christ is made up of so many parts it is hard to know what the function of others may be. We must trust that Christ is their head if they confess faith in Him, and that He will eventually teach us not to frame His Word at all, but allow us to be free enough from the constraints of this world's cultures, and subcultures, to follow Him in His Truth alone...not ours. I would think such a feat is only by the Spirit, and that when we consider it that it should force us to a greater lowliness in our Spirit, and show us how far we have to go still. This drives us to move with the thought of only esteeming others, and hearing more...listening for His voice.
I want to try to give an example of what I am talking about exactly, and I will use Calvinism since I have some leanings, or gleanings, in that direction. One of the main problems that people have with Calvinism is, "how do we know who the elect is, and how does that affect our call to evangelize?" So, in someone else's opinion, Calvinists are not evangelical...and maybe many of them aren't very evangelical because of this very reason, or because they have not submitted to Christ's command to share the Gospel and disciple others. But, what about the others who are very evangelical because they believe that salvation is in God's hands and that He is longsuffering for the purpose of seeing His people gathered to Him...and that they are the tool He is using? Aren't these people also an example of an outworking of God's love in that same theology? My point is some have a stumbling block within that framework that must be removed, and others do not have it at all. Is the Truth ultimately a simple heart of obedience, and trust, toward Him? There is also just the percentage that are just tares within the church, and specifically in that denomination, that are just unloving period because they have not the love of the Father. I think we can see how the real theology that matters may be something deeper than our denominations, or theologies. This deeper theology, the doctrine of the Father, may be the only thing that causes believers to move from a spiritual worldview standpoint no matter what their (man-centered) theologies may be made up of. Right or wrong, Jesus is the Truth, and though we all my touch on it with our man-centered doctrines, it is the root believe that moves us, or grows us.
Another thing, isn't your perception of what liberates those things that bind me always going to be inaccurate, and vice-versa, when we are speaking about our individual relationships with Christ? If a certain theology is a stumbling block to you, and God helps you over that to draw you closer to Him, then is that stumbling block going to be the same for me...or will He possibly use something else? I think our growth patterns are different, and our paths are to get closer to Him have different starting points.
I hope some of this makes sense. I'd like to hear what you, and others, think about it, and how it relates to what our view of debate should be among ourselves...and with unbelievers. Paul often reasoned from Scripture with the Jews, and with the Greeks he reasoned with them from their religious perspective, and with rulers from theirs, and so on. The common thing is that it was always in love, and it always pointed to the cross. He seemed to have a knack for trying to go to their starting point to lead them there. I believe once they would get to the cross, then they would have their own outworking of the love within them...and that their true theology would align all the other beliefs that they had to unlearn.
I think correct theology is important. But, in it's root, it's only importance is the cross. Internally among believer's it should be loving and edifying. To unbelievers it should be oriented around the Gospel...it should start from where they are and lead them to the cross. Debate can be a tool for the Holy Spirit in a believer who's worldview is bound to Christ alone, and who desires to be led by the Spirit in hearing, and speaking. The Lord bless all of you.
Lovely,
I thought your letter was well written and insightful. I do not like to be called a Calvinist, but after someone gets to knows me that seems to be the label I receive.I would rather be known for someone who wants to place God and His precepts ahead of his own personal whims. One of the problems that arise with the whole formula approach to theology is that the model or formula places the thought in a box. A good example is the 5 points of Calvinism. The points were never supposed to give Calvin's (or anyone of this particular belief) whole thought on God and man, but simply a rebuttal to Jacob Arminius. I for one just believe God is sovereign in all things and he is able to work through even messed up thought processes that we all possess and make us His children for eternity.
Blessings, Bubba
I thought your letter was well written and insightful. I do not like to be called a Calvinist, but after someone gets to knows me that seems to be the label I receive.I would rather be known for someone who wants to place God and His precepts ahead of his own personal whims. One of the problems that arise with the whole formula approach to theology is that the model or formula places the thought in a box. A good example is the 5 points of Calvinism. The points were never supposed to give Calvin's (or anyone of this particular belief) whole thought on God and man, but simply a rebuttal to Jacob Arminius. I for one just believe God is sovereign in all things and he is able to work through even messed up thought processes that we all possess and make us His children for eternity.
Blessings, Bubba