Bible Study Two Covenants: The Old and New

[ezrider]

I know where Hermon is. It is about 50 miles away from Galilee where Yeshua gave the Sermon on the Mount. The point of this entire discussion is that the Sermon on the Mount is not the fulfillment of the "law going forth from Zion" because the sermon was given from Galilee, not from Jerusalem and not from Hermon.

Just one question that is kind of sort of related, but not really.

The Prophets foretold that Elijah would first come. Has that been fulfilled? Has Elijah already come?

 

[jocor]

Just one question that is kind of sort of related, but not really.

The Prophets foretold that Elijah would first come. Has that been fulfilled? Has Elijah already come?

According to Yeshua, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy.

 

[ezrider]

According to Yeshua, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy.

Wow, that's kind of cool. How did that happen. I am by no means a Greek of Hebrew scholar, but I am pretty sure of one thing.

ELIJAH
JOHN

Yup, they look just identical to me!

 

[jocor]

Wow, that's kind of cool. How did that happen. I am by no means a Greek of Hebrew scholar, but I am pretty sure of one thing.

ELIJAH
JOHN

Yup, they look just identical to me!

That's a clever comparison. Just as John and Elijah are one and the same even though the two words are not identical, you would say that "siyon" and "tziyon" are one and the same even though the two words are not identical. So, in reality, what you are saying is that the "Sion" of Dt 4:48 is really the "Zion" of Isaiah 2:3 even though they are two different Hebrew words. You are further saying that the "Zion" of Isaiah 2:3 is fulfilled by Yeshua's Sermon on the Mount which took place in Hermon near the Golan Heights even though the NT tells us the sermon was given on a mountain near Galilee (Mt 4:23; 8:1-5). It is about a two day journey from Galilee to Hermon, yet you say Hermon is where the sermon was given. Sorry, but I cannot accept that even with your clever comparison.

 

[ezrider]

That's a clever comparison. Just as John and Elijah are one and the same even though the two words are not identical, you would say that "siyon" and "tziyon" are one and the same even though the two words are not identical. So, in reality, what you are saying is that the "Sion" of Dt 4:48 is really the "Zion" of Isaiah 2:3 even though they are two different Hebrew words. You are further saying that the "Zion" of Isaiah 2:3 is fulfilled by Yeshua's Sermon on the Mount which took place in Hermon near the Golan Heights even though the NT tells us the sermon was given on a mountain near Galilee (Mt 4:23; 8:1-5). It is about a two day journey from Galilee to Hermon, yet you say Hermon is where the sermon was given. Sorry, but I cannot accept that even with your clever comparison.

No. All I am saying is Elijah and John were not one in the same. In fact they are two separate and distinct individuals. But John came in the Spirit of Elijah. And by knowledge of the written word, that was good enough for you. But when it comes to exercising real Faith, well, I will leave that up for yourself to judge.

.

 

[jocor]

No. All I am saying is Elijah and John were not one in the same. In fact they are two separate and distinct individuals. But John came in the Spirit of Elijah. And by knowledge of the written word, that was good enough for you.

Great! We finally agree.

But when it comes to exercising real Faith, well, I will leave that up for yourself to judge.
.

So now my faith must be judged because I disagree with you? If I don't have the "real Faith" you have, I won't understand the things you teach that are not found in the Word?

 

[selihah]

The whole impossibility of that rather large pill (as you call it) came because there were many things (laws and instructions) that were added because of our transgressions. There was no corruption added, God saw to that. But consider a familiar scene at a local grocery store where we have an unruly child throwing a tantrum. The mom settles the kid down but the dad doesn't want to be embarrassed by the child again, so now, instead of "Stay in our sight, young man," the child hears, "Stay in our sight, and keep your hand clapsed right here," indicating the basket. Then Mom thinks about and adds, "And I want you to remain quiet while we are shopping too!"

So that law, about holding the cart and about not talking, came about because the whole scene started when the kid wanted that ball. The parents wanted to have an enjoyable time (and keep the peace) but the extra laws came because of transgressions.



The law was never made to be impossible. It was made more strict (strident?) because of the stubbornness, but never because God likes to make things difficult. You already know how easy things are and we only know this because of His Son, His Son who learned obedience. God was seen by Jesus alone and only He can show us who our Creator is at heart.

I really dont understand you analogy. If not for the Torah how would you or anyone know what a transgression was? The whole point of the Torah is to give us guidance in our lives, it lights our path, it is our the Kings desire for our lives. Even so, absolutley nothing in Torah is mandatory nor is it, contrary to certain teachings, impossible to fulfill. In every instance we are given a choice; follow our Kings guidance or we can chose not too. There is no such thing as "impossible".

 

[WIP]

Okay, fellas. The moderators of this forum are not online at the moment and I have to leave as well. I will kindly ask that we take a breath, count to 10 or something, and please calm down. This is not a debate forum.

Thank you.

 

[ezrider]

If not for the Torah how would you or anyone know what a transgression was?

If you wouldn't mind explaining yourself, but can you please tell me to me what the "Torah" has do to with Adam's transgression?

 

[Chopper]

Im having trouble swallowing that pill Chopper. How can anyone call a certain people stiff necked for not following their Creators comandments then make the claim the commandments God gave them were impossible to keep anyways? It just doesnt make sense that someone would expect another to do the impossible then when they couldn't, punish them for failing to do it. Only a cruel taskmaster would think do that, not a loving God.


My advice to everyone is when you study Torah dont go into it with any preconcieved notions. It is a preconcieved notion based years of your religion teachings that said the Torah was impossible to keep. Now I realize you have only gotten as far as Leviticus. Even so, no where in Torah did God ever say his commandments were impossible or too hard to keep. Quite the contrary, the giver of life said it is easy, a light unto your feet, a path to righteouness and a long life, just to name a few. When you get to Deuteronomy you will get to read one the most touching forms of encouragement I have ever read.

If you shall listen to the voice of YHVH your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the Torah, and if you turn to YHVH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not hidden from you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it. See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command you this day to love YHVH your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply; and YHVH your God shall bless you in the land which you are entering to possess.

The only new covenant I have found spoken of in Tanach is the one that will write torah in our hearts, nothing more. From my perspective the new covenant you preach to us stiff necked people isn't new, its different.

My question to you is, how can you understand what I'm saying since you are not a Christian?

 

[ezrider]

Great! We finally agree.


So now my faith must be judged because I disagree with you? If I don't have the "real Faith" you have, I won't understand the things you teach that are not found in the Word?

If that is your judgement, then know it is what you have proclaimed against yourself.

I see no reason to continue along this path with you jocor, for there is nothing more to be gained form it. reba was absolutely correct in the scriptures she quoted from the book of Hebrews, and it is my fault for pushing those aside in order to concentrate on a real and physical event. But reba was correct, for we do understand that the real mount Zion is a heavenly mountain. It is a Spiritual mountain, much the same way that John was in the Spirit of Elijah. We who are his children LIVE unto the things that are of the Spirit, not the things that are of the flesh. We are not as those rebellious children who begged for a King to rule over their flesh. We are not as the disciples who followed Jesus for more than 3 years but still did not understand, and thought that Jesus was to be the king of there condemned nation. We are not like the Jews who wait to inherit some piece of dirt, never understanding that the birthright was never theirs, even from the beginning. No, we are not like them, for we LIVE unto our Beloved by His Spirit and through His Spirit.

But you cannot believe a thing unless you can prove it to be true for yourself. And so you must confirm a piece of dirt for it to be so; That is not of Faith. I pointed it out to you first, about the word coming forth from Zion, and how that word began with the ten blessings. You rejected that, saying that the blessings were not a command. When the Psalm was introduced showing the the Blessings were commanded from Hermon, you focused on a piece of dirt instead.

I make no offense by this, for it is obvious that you know the scripture very well, but I also know the tree from whence comes the fruit that you would offer unto me. I know your fruit, and I am politely saying, no thank you. Now please, before you strain yourself in reaching for another piece of fruit to offer me, know that I have heard it before. Yes, it is a fruit that is good, a fruit to be desired, a fruit that can make me wise. No thanks. I have tasted the fruit of the Tree of Life, and there is no comparison.

With that said, let us get back to the OP, to the new covenant, to the law of that covenant as it came forth from Zion, and the blessing commanded for that covenant unto everlasting life. You are more than welcome to continue to follow along, and maybe some others will continue to interact with you, which is still fine with me, but just know that our dialog will pretty much cease unless there is something that you say that helps to move along the discussion. I hope you understand.

 

[ezrider]

To my little feathered friend, I hope the flight wasn't too long.

But WOW, what a thought.

Why Hermon? Why the mountains of the North?

Location, location, location.

The Law of Moses. Where was it given? Was it not from Mount Sinai. And where was Mount Sinai? Oh, that's right, Mt Sinai, where the LAW OF MOSES came forth was located OUTSIDE of the PROMISED LAND.

But it was not so for the Law of Christ and the New Covenant. For the words Jesus spoke forth rained down as the DEW on Hermon, as He commanded the blessing for Life Evermore. The Law of Christ as it came forth from ZION. And do you know what, those word that came for from the lips of Jesus, they did so from WITHIN the PROMISED LAND.

The Blood spilled to consecrate the Old Covenant made with Moses was done OUTSIDE of the promised land.
The Blood spilled to consecrate the New Covenant made with Christ was done OUTSIDE the city walls, but INSIDE of the PROMISED LAND.

 

[ezrider]

I love lakes, and I love mountains, and I love mountain lakes.

But I must ask you Sparrowhawke about you avatar. For if I am not mistaken, I would have to say to that in that picture is Mount Rainier. I could be wrong and you can correct me later, but for the purposes of instruction, I shall call it Rainier. So if I might ask, from the perspective of that pretty little lake, about how far away might that mountain be? And though that mountain is a bit away, would you say that the waters of that pretty lake and the area around the pretty lake are both fed from the dew that falls upon Rainier?

.

 

[Sparkey]

It is indeed that very same mountain that the the best cherries in the world are named after. Can you tell I'm still hungry? And way down at the bottom right of the Avatar (if you blow it up to normal size photograph) you can see the momma duck and her little babies swimming by. I didn't want to have to frame them later so I waited until the picture purfect moment to clicky it. The pic was taken from a friends back yard porch (right on the lake).

Distance from Bonney Lake, Washington to Paradise, Mt. Rainier. 71 miles or about 2 hours as the biker might ride... unsure about distance for 'as the crow might fly' because I'm no crow but that would be shorter, of course.

http://www.distancebetweencities.net/bonney-lake_washington_and_paradise-inn_paradise_wa/route

It won't be long before we can use pictures for internet google searches. I have mixed feelings about technology.

_________________________________________

Be my fact checker, if you don't mind, I'll keep it light (and by that I mean, feel free to correct me as it occurs to you, I don't mind) -- Moses met the burning-bush in the area generally called Mt. Sinai. Later, God called Moshe (Moses) back to that same area. That invitation was given after leaving Egypt (while they were fresh from delivery from sin as typified by their slavery to Egypt) and before they crossed the Jordan, while they wandered and followed God (and His holiness) in the wilderness. They did that expeditiously for three months before they were directed by God there to that specific area for the tablets of stone. We don't know how our Father would have presented things if there was no stubborn fear and/or interference demonstrated. But there was, so there we are.

Then they saw the mountain trembling and then they saw the delineation markings of the dead birds (as a BOUNDARY) who had died because flesh dies in the presence of God's holiness. That's what reba was talking about a while ago when she quoted the Holy Spirit through Paul to the Hebrews about the Two Mountains, Mt. Sinai the Trembling and Zion from chapter 12. Here is part of the Preamble to that from the Holy Spirit in chapter 8:

Hebrews 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. I think about that "true tent" as a reference to our bodies, our fleshly temples, or Jesus true body that we have a claim to by faith, but it could also be a reference to the Tent (this is more likely maybe?) that David entered? That temple? Knowing Paul, it could be reference to both the Davidic tent/temple as well as Jesus living and resurrected body and also the Ezekiel Temple that he knew was coming... But I can't even try to "prove" that one. Who knows what Paul was thinking as he was inspired to write this? Right? God alone knows. He's the source. And He has more for us, too.

... Hebrews 8:6-7 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. And we are children of THAT promise. That's what I think Jesus meant (in part) when he spoke of the faith in those who believe but have not seen being greater.

Hebrews 8:8-10 For he finds fault with them when he says:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them," declares the Lord. ​

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Looky! He's still doing that very thing. And we get help in order to better understand Him from The Teacher, The Paraclete, The Spirit, the Breath of LIFE, The Holy, and from God Himself! Our help is from the Ruach HaKodesh. The literal meaning is "The Spirit of Holiness."

... Hebrews 8:12-13 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
--[Heb 8:1-2, 6-10, 12-13 ESV]

But did they go up and share what could have been their deliverer's (Moshe) burning-bush experience or whatever it was that God, their Father, had in mind for them?!? No. It turns out that they stayed down low (like Lot stayed down low while Abraham moved up high) -- and they demonstrated their preference of worshiping things of their own creation - in this case a golden calf.

Notice also that this idolatry was celebrated by Aaron too, the Priest, and thus even the priesthood (as given through men, yet anointed) was touched and corrupted. You've heard that prophecy shall fail? That's a topic for another study. But also notice that they pressed Aaron into service when they noticed the delay of their Moshe's return. That is strikingly similar to what we know 'mockers' will say about the delay of the 2nd coming. We know that it's because Jesus is not willing that any should perish, but there is nothing to say that the mockers whom everybody assumes is the unsaved might also call themselves X-ians (fake Christians) and are just simple tares whose true nature is still, and as yet, un-revealed. I think there is more prophecy to unpack there. Much more.

 

[Sparkey]

It is a Spiritual mountain, much the same way that John was in the Spirit of Elijah.

Pardon the quick interruption, please but look at the last verses from the Old Testament. The last verses from the minor prophet, Malachi. That speaks of the Spirit of Elijah (too) and it doesn't quite sound like John, the Baptist, crying in the wilderness.

"Turn the hearts of the Fathers" is the reference you want for checking. Add that to the wine glass that is still set out on tables around the world so that the young child may go and open the door. That's the voice of the friend of the bridegroom that we have not yet heard. Passover seder (literal meaning of 'seder' is, in English, 'order') is concluded with the wish and blessing: "Next year, in Jerusalem," even to this day.

"Turn the hearts of the Fathers..." and "Turn the hearts of the sons... " is the sound of the voice I listen for with great care for. It's similar to the word that The Baptist cried out with; "Make straight the paths," and "Repent". And that could be stretched into turning hearts of fathers and sons but it's not quite the same. I'm of a mind to think that the Malachi prophecy of the cry of the Spirit of Elijah is yet to be heard, but then, I could be wrong about that too. It would not be the first time that happened. It's also possible that I'm being poured out like a water offering and if that is the case? I welcome it. But I'm never certain; we will know before another year because it doesn't take that long to pour out water, now does it?

 

[ezrider]

Pardon the quick interruption, please but look at the last verses from the Old Testament. The last verses from the minor prophet, Malachi. That speaks of the Spirit of Elijah (too) and it doesn't quite sound like John, the Baptist, crying in the wilderness.

"Turn the hearts of the Fathers" is the reference you want for checking. Add that to the wine glass that is still set out on tables around the world so that the young child may go and open the door. That's the voice of the friend of the bridegroom that we have not yet heard. Passover seder (literal meaning of 'seder' is, in English, 'order') is concluded with the wish and blessing: "Next year, in Jerusalem," even to this day.

"Turn the hearts of the Fathers..." and "Turn the hearts of the sons... " is the sound of the voice I listen for with great care for. It's similar to the word that The Baptist cried out with; "Make straight the paths," and "Repent". And that could be stretched into turning hearts of fathers and sons but it's not quite the same. I'm of a mind to think that the Malachi prophecy of the cry of the Spirit of Elijah is yet to be heard, but then, I could be wrong about that too. It would not be the first time that happened. It's also possible that I'm being poured out like a water offering and if that is the case? I welcome it. But I'm never certain; we will know before another year because it doesn't take that long to pour out water, now does it?

Matthew 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

I saw that you touched briefly on this in another thread and I would like to hear more. I have contemplated on what Jesus meant when he said the Elijah truly shall first come and restore all things. I think I have strapped on my own personal blinder when it comes to Elijah, for more reasons than one, but I have taken to making a distinction between the Spirit of Elijah and the Spirit of Christ based upon the repudiation Jesus gave his disciples when they asked if he should call down fire from heaven as Elijah. Know you not what Spirit you are of?
But you have said something about the friend of the bridegroom, and I should like to hear more, so please carry on with your thought.

.

 

[Sparkey]

Think of the voice of Elijah as the voice of the friend of the Bridegroom. Who can say? Maybe there's somebody who hears that in the voice of those who dance with Christ? But his voice is the sound that is still being listened for by the Jews. They know that Elijah precedes their Messiah. He does. For those who are given an ear to hear (only) has Jesus clued us in to the whole John the Baptist thing. It's like code. We learn our lover's code from His Breath in our ear, His Breath is His Spirit, Holy.

Jesus spoke very intimately to those who are given an ear to hear. That, I hope, will soon be the whole modern body of Christ, Messianic Jews and all. His Spirit whispers truth seemingly indiscriminately.

Me? I get to say, "Blessed are they who come in the NAME [of the LORD]"

 

[ezrider]

Where is Mt Zion located?

Psalm 125:1-2
They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion,
which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
As the mountains are round about Jerusalem,
so the Lord is round about his people
from henceforth even for ever.

 

[smaller]

Zion = Dry Ground

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Hosea 6:3
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

What rains from Heaven? Faith, Forgiveness, Mercy, Grace, Justice, Understandings and most of all HIS LOVE.

 

[ezrider]

What rains from Heaven? Faith, Forgiveness, Mercy, Grace, Justice, Understandings and most of all HIS LOVE.

His Holy Spirit raineth down, for those who would receive Him.