What is death?

[Aaron the Tall]

I've been listening to some Unitarian speakers and debaters lately.
One of the sub-topics that comes up is the subject of death and what it means to die.

Unitarians say God can't die so Jesus can't be God. Trinitarians say that only the body of Jesus died - not the Spirit of Jesus. Unitarians reply that the idea of a man having two distinct parts that can be separated is pagan in nature and not what the Hebrews believed.

I was wondering if we could discuss the subject of death and what happens to a person when they die.
I would like to hear the Unitarian point of view (but not discuss Jesus' deity in this thread).
If no Unitarian would like to comment - I'm sure I could relate most of their position and see how others would reply.

The Unitarian/Jehovah Witness position is basically that there is no thought or consciousness after death - that the soul/spirit do not continue living. They say the whole person is asleep until the great resurrection when Jesus returns - as many scriptures describe the departed as "sleeping."
One of the proof texts is ECCLESIASTES 9:5-6: “For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.†The focus being the dead do not know anything.

 

[veteran]

Why discuss that particular tradition of men when Eccl.9 is a very poor Scriptural reference for such an idea, especially in contrast to 2 Cor.5 and Luke 16, and 2 Cor.12, and 1 Cor.15, and... etc.,?

Did you really READ the Eccl.9 Scripture and understand what it says?

Eccl 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
(KJV)

Is that really about those in Christ Jesus? Will those in Christ never "for ever" have a portion in any thing more done under the sun? Is the memory of the dead in Christ Jesus forgotten today? Who is that really talking about?

It's these...

Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased (Rephaim), they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
(KJV)

In several OT Scriptures, the KJV word "dead" (or "deceased" here), is a proper name for the 'giants', the Rephaim. They were to be destroyed by God's commandment to Israel. And here God tells us through Isaiah they are not to rise, not to be resurrected from the dead, and even the memory of them is to perish.

This shows there is a metaphor in God's Word for the idea of "the dead" pointing to the wicked that are to perish and be no more.

Ps 37:34-36
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
(KJV)

Ps 37:10-11
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
(KJV)

But those in Christ Jesus who die in the flesh are not even to consider it as being like "the dead", but as passing from death unto life...

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(KJV)

This is why our people has a rich history of using expressions for a loved one that dies, saying they 'passed away', or went to Heaven to be with The LORD, etc. Death has NO power over those in Christ Jesus.

This is also why our Lord Jesus told us to not even fear those who can kill our flesh body, and there's nothing more they can do, but to fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire (Luke 12:4-5).

 

[Adullam]

Death is a separation. For a human it is when the soul leaves the body. Spiritual death is when the Spirit leaves the soul.

 

[Biblesurveyor]

My favorite story about the issue of death was delivered in a sermon by Peter Marshall. I will never forget it and I also loved the movie "A Man Called Peter". It is still one of my favorites.

http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/stories ... -death.htm

 

[Tubalcain]

I'm not a Unitarian, but, you should know, Unitarians are a law unto themselves, so saying "Unitarians say..." is not a statement of church doctrine. I'm a Methodist, and we're not quite as freethought as UUs, but the statement "Methodists say you must be a Republican to be Christian" is technically accurate, because some do, but not valid because it's not Methodist doctrine. But UUs don't even have doctrine.

As for death, it's the cosmological equivalent of a semipermeable membrane. You pass to the other side, but, not back again. That's why ghost stories are all a bunch of hooey.

 

[RND]

Aaron the Tall, death is the cessation of physical life. On the "last day" those that have died with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be resurrected into eternal life (John 6:39-40, 44, 11:24, 2 Thes 4:13-17, 1 Cor. 15:50-55).

We are dust and air (the breath of God - Gen. 2:7). Daniel knew exactly what would happen at death and what would happen at the resurrection:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

I think some of the best and most poetic understanding can be found in the book of Job:

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? Job 14:11 [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:13 ¶ O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

He knew exactly what would happen at death! A man lies down and doesn't rise until the heavens be no more. He is hidden in the grave, kept there in secret until the Lord's wrath is passed - yet the Lord sets an appointed time for a man to be resurrected. God calls and man will answer, just like 2 Thes. 4:16 says!

The idea that man is immortal on his own, apart from God, is simply a pagan belief adopted by Christianity that simply cannot be understood to being taught by scripture. Eternal life in scripture is always shown to be a gift and not a birthright.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

A famous Christian author once wrote: "Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.

As spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of spiritualism, miracles will be wrought,the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power." - Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, page 588

Another interesting passage from Job is in chapter 17 when Job describes what happens in the grave:

Job 17:11 My days are past, my purposes are broken off, [even] the thoughts of my heart. Job 17:12 They change the night into day: the light [is] short because of darkness. Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave [is] mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou [art] my father: to the worm, [Thou art] my mother, and my sister. Job 17:15 And where [is] now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust.

Job even tells us that he will see God in his glorified body:

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth: Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.

Anyway Aaron the Tall, I hope you find what it is you are looking for regarding your search. Personally I think you got Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 spot on so I think you are on the right track.

You might want to try this web site for answers to some of your questions:

The Truth about Death

 

[Aaron the Tall]

RND,

I think I see where you are coming from. Would you hold that no believer who has died is currently in heaven with God? But that it won't be until the resurrection that those who have died will regain fellowship with God?

I've seen this verse used to support this thought:
Acts 2
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven

This verse is used to say that David isn't in heaven - and neither is any believer who has died.

Then there is Daniel 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3

This seems to indicate that everlasting life only comes to the believers after they are resurrected in the last days.

I'm not saying I believe this idea - I was just wondering what scriptures one uses to support this view.

 

[RND]

RND,

I think I see where you are coming from. Would you hold that no believer who has died is currently in heaven with God?

Good deal. As I see it you aren't so much in agreement with me but with the scriptures. However I think we should qualify that there are indeed some believers who are in heaven at this moment - Moses, Elijah, those that were resurrected with Christ (Mat. 27:50-53). But for the most part those who die rest in the tomb until the last day resurrection.

But that it won't be until the resurrection that those who have died will regain fellowship with God?

Correct. Apart from a select few those who have died in the past as is true now are awaiting resurrection on the last day.

I've seen this verse used to support this thought:
Acts 2
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven

This verse is used to say that David isn't in heaven - and neither is any believer who has died.

Yes, this is true. David is still with us. His next thought will be to see his Lord coming in the clouds (the mass of angels) with great power and glory.

Then there is Daniel 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3

This seems to indicate that everlasting life only comes to the believers after they are resurrected in the last days.

I agree.

I'm not saying I believe this idea - I was just wondering what scriptures one uses to support this view.

I think there are a plethora of scriptures that clearly indicate that a man rests in the tomb until the day of resurrection.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

What would you say are the "requirements" for being in heaven now?
Or, why are these few you mentioned in heaven while everyone else is not?
Do you mention Moses and Elijah because they were with Jesus at the transfiguration?

What would you say about the OT account of deceased Samuel speaking to King Saul through the witch of Endor? Could a spirit that was not really Samuel give an accurate prophecy to Saul?

Thanks.

 

[RND]

What would you say are the "requirements" for being in heaven now?

I believe this is a choice that God makes and based on the character of the individual. This from author Ellen G. White on the subject:

Enoch formed a righteous character, and the result was that he was translated to heaven without seeing death. When the Lord shall come the second time, there will be some who will be translated without seeing death, and we want to know if we will be among that number. We want to know if we are wholly on the Lord's side--partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust--not by trying to make a clear path for our feet where we shall have no trials or difficulties to meet, but by placing ourselves in right relation to God and letting Him take care of the consequences. -- Manuscript 83, 1886.

Enoch had temptations as well as we. He was surrounded with society no more friendly to righteousness than is that which surrounds us. The atmosphere he breathed was tainted with sin and corruption, the same as ours; yet he lived a life of holiness. He was unsullied with the prevailing sins of the age in which he lived. So may we remain pure and uncorrupted. He was a representative of the saints who live amid the perils and corruptions of the last days. For his faithful obedience to God he was translated. So, also, the faithful, who are alive and remain, will be translated. They will be removed from a sinful and corrupt world to the pure joys of heaven. -- Conflict and Courage, page 29

Or, why are these few you mentioned in heaven while everyone else is not?

I think only God can truly answer that question.

Do you mention Moses and Elijah because they were with Jesus at the transfiguration?

Yes.

What would you say about the OT account of deceased Samuel speaking to King Saul through the witch of Endor?

How do we know that was Samuel and not some demon impersonating Samuel? I say there are three things that we should consider regarding this story. 1) The witch herself was shocked and surprised at what she had done, 2) Saul never actually saw Samuel but took the witches word for it, (3) Samuel was "called up."

Could a spirit that was not really Samuel give an accurate prophecy to Saul?

Sure, why not? A lying prophet deceived one of God's true prophets in 1 Kings 13.

 

[TheCatholic]

deleted by poster

 

[jasoncran]

i deleted the posts that werent on topic.
keep your cool guys, i understand that they are pro-catholic and anti-catholic here, be fair and not try to shut down threads that you dont like, if you cant comment in civility then dont.

 

[TheCatholic]

.....Unitarians say God can't die so Jesus can't be God.......

The Person who died on the cross was a divine Person, commonly called the Son of God. Since that Person is God, it is proper to say God died on the cross, even though that sounds odd and may make some unthinking people conclude that it means that God ceased to exists, which, of course, was not the case

Besides, there are far too many texts that demonstrate Christ's divivity and consequently God's triune nature

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Catholic,
I am in agreement with you on the trinity - I was just curious of what other people believe on the subject of death.

RND,
Summing up what you said, does your quote imply that Enoch never sinned and lived a perfect life? Also, is it saying that others can live a perfect life without sin - and these are the ones that will probably go immediately to heaven when they die?

If that is what you are saying, how do these verses help or hurt your claim?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

I just read I Kings 13. This account is painted in a different light than the appearance of Samuel. It clearly says the old prophet was lying - it goes into detail about the heart of the deception. The Samuel account has no such explanation - the prophecy is not declared to be a lie or a deception - it simply says that Samuel was summoned and he spoke to Saul. I'll admit - it definitely is a passage that arouses some questions.