When did the Church begin?

[JLB]

Nothing but the cleansing of the temple of God...us.

God did it this way in order to show that the laying on of hands could also be a means of transferring (?) the gift of the Holy Ghost.
In Simon's case, it also showed that without repentance from sin, it would not be given.
The Spirit of God will not reside in a polluted temple.
Remission of sins comes first in all cases but Cornelius', the first Gentiles to receive Christ.
His reception of the Holy Spirit before baptism was an example to the Jews.

My point stands. Water baptism has nothing to do with receiving the Spirit.

 

[jerry63935]

My point stands. Water baptism has nothing to do with receiving the Spirit.

exactly

 

[JLB]

I agree that repentance of sin is the turning to God and away from the devil.

It doesn’t say repentance of sin.

Repent means turn to God.

 

[DavidT]

Firstly, they weren't even called Christians till Acts 11.
Secondly, it was the Jewish "church" before Jesus was resurrected, so technically wasn't the "church" I belong to.
Thirdly, until Jesus was killed, we could not be baptized into Him. (Rom 6:3-7)

In Galatians 3, Apostle Paul teaches that those of Faith have believed the same faith as Abraham. By that Paul was pointing to the Promise by Faith which God first gave through Abraham, and was passed on to his son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob, and then to his son Joseph who was separated from his brethren, and then to his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh.

So if one doesn't believe that was the start of Christ's Church with Abraham's faith on the Promise which we also have believed, then how can one even claim to be a follower of Christ Jesus?

Gal 3:7-9
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

 

[Hopeful]

My point stands. Water baptism has nothing to do with receiving the Spirit.

As one of the things accomplished by water baptism is the death, burial, and resurrection of the new creature with Christ Jesus, (Rom 6:4), and it's freedom from sin, (Rom 6:7), I must inquire..."How long has your baptism kept you free from sin?"

 

[Hopeful]

It doesn’t say repentance of sin.
Repent means turn to God.

Men can't retain sin if they turn to God.
No man can serve two masters. (Matt 6:24)
Servants of sin have not turned to God. (John 8:34)

 

[Hopeful]

In Galatians 3, Apostle Paul teaches that those of Faith have believed the same faith as Abraham. By that Paul was pointing to the Promise by Faith which God first gave through Abraham, and was passed on to his son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob, and then to his son Joseph who was separated from his brethren, and then to his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh.
So if one doesn't believe that was the start of Christ's Church with Abraham's faith on the Promise which we also have believed, then how can one even claim to be a follower of Christ Jesus?
Gal 3:7-9
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

The "promise" Abraham received was that he would be the father of many nations..."As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations." (Gen 17:4)
I don't see that as the start of the Church by Christ Jesus. (Eph 3:21)
The Father of Christians is God, the Almighty.
But only if we have faith like Abraham had.
There was no "virgin bride" for Jesus to come back for before we could BE that virgin bride.
That couldn't be accomplished until Jesus was raised from the dead and we could be baptized into that death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

 

[JLB]

As one of the things accomplished by water baptism is the death, burial, and resurrection of the new creature with Christ Jesus, (Rom 6:4), and it's freedom from sin, (Rom 6:7), I must inquire..."How long has your baptism kept you free from sin?"

Receiving the Spirit (Baptism with the Spirit) is what empowers us to live according to the Spirit.


Water baptism is our public confession of identifying with Christ;
with the likeness of His death and with His resurrection.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:5


Each person who has received the Spirit must by the Spirit put to death the sinful deeds of the flesh.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


So water baptism is not some magic wand that somehow makes sin go away. It is up to each person who has received the Spirit to put to death, to crucify the lustful manifestations (sin) of the flesh.


So the only question that remains is:


Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Receiving the Spirit (Baptism with the Spirit) is what empowers us to live according to the Spirit.

I can agree with that.

Water baptism is our public confession of identifying with Christ;
with the likeness of His death and with His resurrection.

It is more than just a "likeness", it is the actual participation with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection from the grave.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:5

I don't know what version of the bible you are quoting, but the KJV says Rom 6:5 thusly..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
So how does baptism of the Holy Ghost constitute, intimate, burial or planting?
Water baptism is an actual submersion in water to intimate a grave.

Each person who has received the Spirit must by the Spirit put to death the sinful deeds of the flesh.

Easily accomplished when the old man has been crucified with Christ.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13
if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Amen to that.

So water baptism is not some magic wand that somehow makes sin go away. It is up to each person who has received the Spirit to put to death, to crucify the lustful manifestations (sin) of the flesh.

You disagree with Peter who commanded baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, in Acts 2:38.
You disagree with Ananias of Damascus for the same reason.
It pains me to think you have demeaned water baptism to the point of disobeying Peter's command to wash away past sins in the the of Jesus Christ.

So the only question that remains is...
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

Yes, shortly after I was water baptized to purify, sanctify, His temple.

How are you doing with your man centered efforts to crucify the flesh and its lustful manifestations?
How long have you been a non-sinner?

 

[JLB]

I can agree with that.


It is more than just a "likeness", it is the actual participation with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection from the grave.


I don't know what version of the bible you are quoting, but the KJV says Rom 6:5 thusly..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
So how does baptism of the Holy Ghost constitute, intimate, burial or planting?
Water baptism is an actual submersion in water to intimate a grave.


Easily accomplished when the old man has been crucified with Christ.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)


Amen to that.


You disagree with Peter who commanded baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, in Acts 2:38.
You disagree with Ananias of Damascus for the same reason.
It pains me to think you have demeaned water baptism to the point of disobeying Peter's command to wash away past sins in the the of Jesus Christ.


Yes, shortly after I was water baptized to purify, sanctify, His temple.

How are you doing with your man centered efforts to crucify the flesh and its lustful manifestations?
How long have you been a non-sinner?

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:13-14

• that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

More misinformation as the scriptures teach us the truth.


“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16


I hope through this discussion you are learning that not everything your denomination has indoctrinated you with is true.




JLB

Christ began teaching NT principles but the NT did not come into effect until after Christ died, Heb 9:16-17.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So your position is no one was saved through the preaching of Christ, when His disciples would then baptize those who believed?


Interesting.


Im beginning to think you believe only people in your denomination are saved.



JLB

Those that would obey Christ would be saved.

I have no denomination.

The Bible teaches there is one body. one faith not many bodies with many different faiths.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

• Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

• And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

You are extremely misinformed about this subject.
What about all the Corinthians who received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues?





JLB

From Mt 3:11 only the Lord would baptize men with the Holy Spirit, not Paul nor any other men could baptize with the Holy Spirit. Those Ephesians had been water baptized with John's baptism but by Act 19 John's baptism was obsolete, invalid having been replaced by Christ's water baptism of the great commission in which this water baptism was administered by disciples.

Acts 8 an Apostle could lay his hands upon another person and pass on a miraculous sign as tongue speaking but this is not a baptism with the Holy Spirit, some had no sign at all 1 Cor 12. Since the last Apostle died some 2000 years ago, this laying on of hands is not available to anyone today.

Acts 8:15-16
who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit:
for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

--Since none had received the Holy Spirit then the "baptized into the name of the Lord" is NOT baptism with the Holy Spirit but the water baptism of Christ's great commission, the one baptism (Eph 4:4-5) currently in effect that now saves.

--Since they were water baptized and saved BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit, then receiving a direct miraculous indwelling of the HS is not necessary to enable one to believe, is not necessary to one being saved. The context also shows that being water baptized is NOT directly connected to speaking in tongues nor having the ability to immediately speak in tongues.

Acts 8:18 "Now when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles" hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,"
Since Simon "saw' implies the laying on of hands produced something visible to the sight, such as miraculous signs that could be seen.
"laying on of the Apostles' hands" Phillip had miraculous signs (v13) but since he was not an Apostle therefore he could not lay hands upon the eunuch or Samaritans, that is why Peter and John had to come from Jerusalem to Samaria and lay hands upon the Samaritans. Again, only the Apostles had this ability to lay hands upon another and pass on a sign and since no Apostle is alive today then this laying on of hands and passing on a sign ceased some 2000 years ago. And when those the Apostles laid hands upon died then the miraculous signs ceased as Paul said the would 1 Cor 13; Eph 4.

 

[JLB]

Christ began teaching NT principles but the NT did not come into effect until after Christ died, Heb 9:16-17.

What is a New Testament principle?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Those that would obey Christ would be saved.

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Abraham obeyed Christ and had the Spirit of Christ in him.



JLB

 

[JLB]

From Mt 3:11 only the Lord would baptize men with the Holy Spirit, not Paul nor any other men could baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Only Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What is a New Testament principle?



JLB

Acts 2:38 is one. This did not come into effect until several weeks after Christ died.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Abraham obeyed Christ and had the Spirit of Christ in him.



JLB

Heb 9:15 when Christ was crucified, His blood flowed back to wash away the sins of those who lived under the OT law that obeyed God. Abraham did not obey the NT law for it did not yet exist but obeyed the laws given him by God under the Patriarchal law he lived under.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Only Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

He baptized the Apostles (Jews) in Acts 2 and Cornelius (Gentile) Acts 10 fulfilling Joel's prophecy.....fulfilling meaning to cease, to being to an end.

 

[JLB]

Acts 2:38 is one. This did not come into effect until several weeks after Christ died.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:28-39


The promise of receiving the Spirit is for as many as call of the name of the Lord.

Do you agree with this scripture?



JLB