Who Was The God That Men Had Seen in the O.T.?

[ChristDependent]

God had been seen in the O.T. appearing to men that did not die when they had seen Him.

The Lord appeared to Abraham face to face.

Genesis 12:7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

The Lord appeared to Isaac face to face.

Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

The Lord appeared to Jacob face to face.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

So this verse below is confirmed.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

So Who is the God that men had seen? Was it the Father?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So pretty much the two verses are testifying that no man had seen God the Father, save Jesus, Who is God.

So Who was the God that men had seen in the O.T.?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So the Son of God was the God that men had seen before His incarnation as the Son of Man.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[WIP]

ChristDependent,
Is there a point you wish to debate or is this intended to be more of a Bible Study? We have a forum for Bible study if this is your intention.

 

[ChristDependent]

ChristDependent,
Is there a point you wish to debate or is this intended to be more of a Bible Study? We have a forum for Bible study if this is your intention.

I had read something in another thread in this forum where I felt this truth was needed to be shared, but I did not want to derail the thread, and so I put it here in the event that any one wishes to debate it.

I can't recall which thread, but a fellow believer was under the assumption that God the Father was a just "Spirit" and that nobody had seen God at any time... which this thread addresses the latter point.

This also reminds me of the other point that needs reproving in this sub-forum, but I probably should start another thread on that in proving that the Father is not just a Spirit. God be willing, I shall get to it after I get caught up with the replies in the alerts.

Thanks.

 

[smaller]

I'd say the majority here see the pre-incarnation appearances of God as "christophanies." Whether it be in Word or appearance. Acts 7:44-45.

 

[jocor]

I agree that no man saw the Father in the OT. We are told many times that it was the "Angel of YHWH" or an angel that they were seeing or talking to. For example, The "man" Jacob wrestled with in Gen 32:24 was really an angel (Hosea 12:4). Are you saying the Son existed as an angel in the OT as well as "God"? Are you saying the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" was the Son?

 

[ChristDependent]

I agree that no man saw the Father in the OT. We are told many times that it was the "Angel of YHWH" or an angel that they were seeing or talking to.

Angel is derived from the Hebrew word meaning messenger. So whenever I see the term "the Angel of the Lord", I have to see that as inferring the Word of God, especially when those that have seen this "the angel of the Lord", are also testifying that they have seen God.

There are angels and then there is "the angel of the Lord", and the Son of God is not an angel when He is God.

For example, The "man" Jacob wrestled with in Gen 32:24 as really an angel (Hosea 12:4).

Hosea 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; 5 Even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is his memorial. 6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment and wait on thy God continually.

In order of sequence from Hosea 12:4-6 in relation to Genesis 32 nd chapter; it should be noted that the Hebrew word, mal' ak, is also being translated as messenger and not just angel.

"from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):--ambassador, angel, king, messenger."

Genesis 32:1 And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. 2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim. 3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now: 5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight. 6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.

So did Jacob commanded the angels to be his messengers to Esau? In order of event of Hosea 12:4-6, yes, because when the messengers came back, it was then that Jacob wept & made supplication.

Genesis 32:7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands; 8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape. 9 And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, the Lord which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee: 10 I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which thou hast shewed unto thy servant; for with my staff I passed over this Jordan; and now I am become two bands. 11 Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, and the mother with the children. 12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

And so Jacob finding Him later on ( did not say it was an angel he was wrestling with but a man ), prevailed also, BUT testified as having seen God face to face, and made that place a memorial in keeping in context the sequence of events listed as with Hosea 12:4-6.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Are you saying the Son existed as an angel in the OT as well as "God"? are you saying the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" was the Son?

Jesus is saying that He was the God that men had seen in the O.T. as testified in various places in scripture.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Sinthesis]

Consider the relationship between seeing and understanding. Do the Theophanies of the OT communicate the same vision/understanding of God that Jesus does? If you want to know what the Father is like, you should get to know the Son.

Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.​

 

[ChristDependent]

Consider the relationship between seeing and understanding. Do the Theophanies of the OT communicate the same vision/understanding of God that Jesus does?

It is a question that every believer should ask the Lord at that throne of grace.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

f you want to know what the Father is like, you should get to know the Son.

Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Yes, that is One & Only Way right now of knowing the Father by and that is by knowing the Son.

 

[jocor]

Angel is derived from the Hebrew word meaning messenger. So whenever I see the term "the Angel of the Lord", I have to see that as inferring the Word of God, especially when those that have seen this "the angel of the Lord", are also testifying that they have seen God.

All angels can act as messengers, but not all messengers are angels.

You are assuming "the Angel of the Lord" is the Son (reading him into the text).

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
​

"The angel of the Lord" in this verse is certainly not the Son.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

"God" (Father YHWH) did not use His Son to speak to the Fathers in time past. It is only in these latter days that the Father speaks through His Son.

There are angels and then there is "the angel of the Lord", and the Son of God is not an angel when He is God.

The "Angel of the Lord" (Angel of YHWH) is an angel (Acts 7:30, 35). While he was speaking/appearing as YHWH's representative, he was still the "ANGEL" of YHWH (the angel belonging to and sent from YHWH).

Hosea 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; 5 Even the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is his memorial. 6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment and wait on thy God continually.

In order of sequence from Hosea 12:4-6 in relation to Genesis 32 nd chapter; it should be noted that the Hebrew word, mal' ak, is also being translated as messenger and not just angel.

"from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):--ambassador, angel, king, messenger."

Genesis 32:1 And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. 2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim. 3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now: 5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight. 6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.

So did Jacob commanded the angels to be his messengers to Esau? In order of event of Hosea 12:4-6, yes, because when the messengers came back, it was then that Jacob wept & made supplication.

Genesis 32:7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands; 8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape. 9 And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, the Lord which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee: 10 I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which thou hast shewed unto thy servant; for with my staff I passed over this Jordan; and now I am become two bands. 11 Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, and the mother with the children. 12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

And so Jacob finding Him later on ( did not say it was an angel he was wrestling with but a man ), prevailed also, BUT testified as having seen God face to face, and made that place a memorial in keeping in context the sequence of events listed as with Hosea 12:4-6.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

None of the above proves the Son was "the Angel of YHWH". You must read that into the text.

When Jacob said, "for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved," it is not to be understood literally.
Similar statements were made in Ex 33:11, Deut 34:10, and Num 12:6-8. Moses himself helps to explain this in Deut 5:4;

"Yahweh talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire."
​

He was referring to the giving of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20. Upon completion of Israel hearing those words, Yahweh told Moses to say to the children of Israel, "You have seen that I have talked to you from heaven" (Ex 20:22).

Although it is said that Yahweh spoke "face to face" with the children of Israel, they did not actually see him as one sees with the eyes. Deut 4:12,15,16 read;

"And Yahweh spoke unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. . .Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that Yahweh spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female."
​

Yahweh would not allow the children of Israel to see any likeness of Himself because He knew they would then make an image of Him and worship it. Although Yahweh said He "talked" to them (Deut 5:4), it was not Yahweh's actual voice they were hearing. Not only is this confirmed by John5:37, but by Acts 7:38,53 as well.

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: . . .Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."​

It was actually angels that spoke with Moses and the fathers of Israel. Therefore, Paul tells us the law was "ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (Moses)" (Gal 3:19). "Ordained" is from the Greek "diatasso" meaning "to command". Again, we read in Heb.2:2;

"For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; . . ."
​

It is clear that Yahweh spoke the law to Israel through angels. Yahweh Himself was never heard nor seen.

Concerning Gen 32:24 where Jacob wrestled with a "man", he said he saw "Elohim face to face". Yet, in Hos.12:3,4a, we find out it wasn't Elohim (Yahweh), but an angel that he wrestled with;

"He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with Elohim: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:"​

The thought will then come to mind that the Scriptures cannot be true since they contradict each other. In one place it is said Yahweh spoke face to face, but in another it really wasn't Yahweh, but an angel. If we try to understand this from a Western mind set, from our cultural perspective, it is difficult to understand. Not so from Middle Eastern thought. This is what is known as the "law of agency".

"The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself" (Ned.72b; Kidd.41b)." The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Adama Books, New York, NY, 1986, pg.15.
​

The angels that spoke the law were Yahweh's agents or representatives. As such, they had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to seemingly appropriate His name as in Ex 20:2; "I am Yahweh thy Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." They were speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted them to say.

 

[jocor]

Jesus is saying that He was the God that men had seen in the O.T. as testified in various places in scripture.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus (Yeshua); whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.​

The God of our fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) is Yahweh (the Father of Yeshua/Jesus).

John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how s hall ye believe my words?

Moses wrote directly of the Son in Deut 18:15 and many times in types and shadows. He did not write of the Son as being "the Angel of YHWH).

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Verse 56, Yeshua did not say Abraham saw him, but that he saw his day. He did that through the eyes of faith (Heb 11).
In verse 57, the Jews make it clear that they did not understand Yeshua's words in verse 56. They misunderstood him to say he saw Abraham. Yeshua said no such thing.

 

[smaller]

The angels that spoke the law were Yahweh's agents or representatives. As such, they had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to seemingly appropriate His name as in Ex 20:2; "I am Yahweh thy Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." They were speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted them to say.

You've heard these before and bypassed them:

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And who spoke them? The same ME above:

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[ChristDependent]

All angels can act as messengers, but not all messengers are angels.

When the angels served as messengers to Jacob, they were delivering his message, not God's, and so that is why the term messengers were used then as it signifies them as different from those references to his servants.

You are assuming "the Angel of the Lord" is the Son (reading him into the text).

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
​

"The angel of the Lord" in this verse is certainly not the Son.

True. Thanks for the insight on discerning that phrase more, but I was referring moreso in the O.T. since that is what the topic is about.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

"God" (Father YHWH) did not use His Son to speak to the Fathers in time past. It is only in these latter days that the Father speaks through His Son.

That would be like saying God did not use the angels either, but that is not true. Just because Hebrews 1:1 made a reference to one of the ways He has spoken unto the fathers in the past, that does not mean it was the only way, obviously.

The "Angel of the Lord" (Angel of YHWH) is an angel (Acts 7:30, 35). While he was speaking/appearing as YHWH's representative, he was still the "ANGEL" of YHWH (the angel belonging to and sent from YHWH).

None of the above proves the Son was "the Angel of YHWH". You must read that into the text.

When Jacob said, "for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved," it is not to be understood literally.
Similar statements were made in Ex 33:11, Deut 34:10, and Num 12:6-8. Moses himself helps to explain this in Deut 5:4;

"Yahweh talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire."
​

He was referring to the giving of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20. Upon completion of Israel hearing those words, Yahweh told Moses to say to the children of Israel, "You have seen that I have talked to you from heaven" (Ex 20:22).

Although it is said that Yahweh spoke "face to face" with the children of Israel, they did not actually see him as one sees with the eyes. Deut 4:12,15,16 read;

"And Yahweh spoke unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. . .Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that Yahweh spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female."
​

Yahweh would not allow the children of Israel to see any likeness of Himself because He knew they would then make an image of Him and worship it. Although Yahweh said He "talked" to them (Deut 5:4), it was not Yahweh's actual voice they were hearing. Not only is this confirmed by John5:37, but by Acts 7:38,53 as well.

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: . . .Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."​

It was actually angels that spoke with Moses and the fathers of Israel. Therefore, Paul tells us the law was "ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (Moses)" (Gal 3:19). "Ordained" is from the Greek "diatasso" meaning "to command". Again, we read in Heb.2:2;

"For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; . . ."
​

It is clear that Yahweh spoke the law to Israel through angels. Yahweh Himself was never heard nor seen.

Concerning Gen 32:24 where Jacob wrestled with a "man", he said he saw "Elohim face to face". Yet, in Hos.12:3,4a, we find out it wasn't Elohim (Yahweh), but an angel that he wrestled with;

"He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with Elohim: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:"​

The thought will then come to mind that the Scriptures cannot be true since they contradict each other. In one place it is said Yahweh spoke face to face, but in another it really wasn't Yahweh, but an angel. If we try to understand this from a Western mind set, from our cultural perspective, it is difficult to understand. Not so from Middle Eastern thought. This is what is known as the "law of agency".

"The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself" (Ned.72b; Kidd.41b)." The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Adama Books, New York, NY, 1986, pg.15.
​

The angels that spoke the law were Yahweh's agents or representatives. As such, they had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to seemingly appropriate His name as in Ex 20:2; "I am Yahweh thy Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." They were speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted them to say.

You have made a compelling case, but something is amiss when Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and that Moses had written about Him specifically so that scripture would lead seekers to come to Him for life. In the O.T. like in Genesis 18, the Lord was not alone as there were others with Him, hence angels. Mayhap it is in this, is the confusion when the Lord is among the angels.

 

[Douglas Summers]

God had been seen in the O.T. appearing to men that did not die when they had seen Him.

The Lord appeared to Abraham face to face.

God in the OT was Christ before His incarnation. All communication in the OT is Christ (God the Son). "The burning Bush" (I AM) (Exodus chapter 3) (Exodus 3:14) (Matt. 8:58) (Rev. 1:18). He was God the Son with Israel that guarded them during the Exodus (1 Cor. 10:1-10) The Glory of God the Son is the same as the Glory of God the Father and the Holy Spirit. No sinful man could look upon that glory, It would destroy his flesh. The OT gives us all the attributes of God which shows the unity of the Godhead. All are in agreement eternally. No one has seen God the Father but the Son. Christ is the exact representation of the Father. If you have been born again with the Spirit of Christ, you also have the Spirit of the Father. If you know Christ, you know the Father.

 

[ChristDependent]

God in the OT was Christ before His incarnation. All communication in the OT is Christ (God the Son). "The burning Bush" (I AM) (Exodus chapter 3) (Exodus 3:14) (Matt. 8:58) (Rev. 1:18). He was God the Son with Israel that guarded them during the Exodus (1 Cor. 10:1-10) The Glory of God the Son is the same as the Glory of God the Father and the Holy Spirit. No sinful man could look upon that glory, It would destroy his flesh. The OT gives us all the attributes of God which shows the unity of the Godhead. All are in agreement eternally. No one has seen God the Father but the Son. Christ is the exact representation of the Father. If you have been born again with the Spirit of Christ, you also have the Spirit of the Father. If you know Christ, you know the Father.

Yes, I know about Moses' request to see the Lord in all His glory, but that also says that Moses was seeing Him face to face before He revealed Himself to Moses in all His glory in passing by so that he may live without seeing His face then. Granted, it did not convey that Moses was seeing Him face to face before that request was made, but Moses was seeing Him and talking to Him directly before making this request in which it was necessary to hide His face from Moses.

 

[jocor]

You've heard these before and bypassed them:

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I addressed this in Post #10

And who spoke them? The same ME above:

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I do not believe Peter meant that the Spirit of a living being was in them, but that the Spirit prophesied concerning the Messiah.
When Yahweh gives His Spirit, He gives it a name based on its function. When it is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Ex. 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph. 1:17); with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Zech.12:10; Heb. 10:29); with glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Pet. 4:14); with truth it is called "the spirit of truth". When it came with the same power as it brought to Elijah, it was called “the spirit of Elijah” (2 Kings 2:15). These are not different spirits that were living beings.

Peter says “the spirit of Christ”, because it is associated with Messiah and foretold of Messiah, not because Messiah was actually alive and in the prophets telling them what to say.

 

[jocor]

That would be like saying God did not use the angels either, but that is not true. Just because Hebrews 1:1 made a reference to one of the ways He has spoken unto the fathers in the past, that does not mean it was the only way, obviously.

I agree He used the angels as well, but verse 2 is in contrast to how He spoke in verse 1. There would be no need for verse 2 if Yahweh spoke through the Son throughout the OT.

You have made a compelling case, but something is amiss when Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and that Moses had written about Him specifically so that scripture would lead seekers to come to Him for life. In the O.T. like in Genesis 18, the Lord was not alone as there were others with Him, hence angels. Mayhap it is in this, is the confusion when the Lord is among the angels.

When you say "the Lord", are you referring to the Son? As I understand it, all three were angels. Two left, but the one who stayed was using the "Law of Agency" as Father YHWH's representative.

 

[ChristDependent]

I agree He used the angels as well, but verse 2 is in contrast to how He spoke in verse 1. There would be no need for verse 2 if Yahweh spoke through the Son throughout the OT.

That does not mean He never did.

When you say "the Lord", are you referring to the Son? As I understand it, all three were angels. Two left, but the one who stayed was using the "Law of Agency" as Father YHWH's representative.

I am referring to the Son since nothing is too hard for the Lord in giving Sara & Abraham a son.

 

[smaller]

I addressed this in Post #10

Don't recall that other than you saying "some" scriptures speak of Him with a citing from Moses as an example. That is not what Jesus said, "some scriptures." Scriptures mean all of them some way or another speak of Jesus. Paul attests to the identical principle, here:

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Scriptures speak of Jesus. They are His Words, Speaking. That is why Jesus is termed Living Word, the Word etc.

I do not believe Peter meant that the Spirit of a living being was in them

The Spirit of Christ not a Living Being? Surely you jest?

, but that the Spirit prophesied concerning the Messiah.

The Messiah has been with the lineage of Israel from their beginning.

When Yahweh gives His Spirit,

And that is you drawing lines of division between God, His Image, His Word, His Spirit.

No such lines exist.

He gives it a name based on its function. When it is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Ex. 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph. 1:17); with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Zech.12:10; Heb. 10:29); with glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Pet. 4:14); with truth it is called "the spirit of truth". When it came with the same power as it brought to Elijah, it was called “the spirit of Elijah” (2 Kings 2:15). These are not different spirits that were living beings.

The "spirit" of Elijah was the Spirit of Christ upon him. Which same Spirit was upon Elisha.

Peter says “the spirit of Christ”, because it is associated with Messiah and foretold of Messiah, not because Messiah was actually alive and in the prophets telling them what to say.

Peter said it was "the spirit of Christ" because it was "the spirit of Christ" in them, speaking.

These men received Jesus in the language of figures and similitudes. That is the language methods God employs.

 

[jocor]

All communication in the OT is Christ (God the Son).

Father YHWH is communicating through the David in Psalm 110:1 as He speaks to His Son:

"The LORD (YHWH) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
​

It is a major assumption to say the Son did all the speaking in the OT. Hebrews 1:1 clearly refers to the Father speaking through the prophets, not the Son speaking through the prophets.

​

The Glory of God the Son is the same as the Glory of God the Father and the Holy Spirit. No sinful man could look upon that glory, It would destroy his flesh. The OT gives us all the attributes of God which shows the unity of the Godhead. All are in agreement eternally. No one has seen God the Father but the Son. Christ is the exact representation of the Father. If you have been born again with the Spirit of Christ, you also have the Spirit of the Father. If you know Christ, you know the Father.

If the glory of the Son is the same glory as the Father, how is it that men could not look upon the Father, but they could upon the Son? The Father used lesser beings (angels) to speak to men so they would not die. How come they didn't die when they looked on the Son who you say is part of the "Godhead" and the exact representation of the Father?

 

[jocor]

I am referring to the Son since nothing is too hard for the Lord in giving Sara & Abraham a son.

Nothing is too hard for the Father. The Father opened Sarah's womb so His Son could come through Isaac.