Works? Hogwash

[Heidi]

Christianity takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing you from a burning fire. That is no work at all. Once Jesus cleans our cup from the inside through washing us with His Holy Spirit, then the outside will reflect a cleaned heart. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."

But those who try to clean the cup from the outside without Jesus having cleaned the inside have to put much effort and work into good deeds. They call it work because their hearts are still as hardened on the inside as the hearts of the Pharisees were, so it becomes a laborious effort to try to give love when there is no love to give.

Genuine love comes from God's love and forgiveness that he gives us through the Holy Spirit and that is what we give to our neighbor. That's why it's called the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of ourselves.

So salvation is by faith alone because the faith that comes from the Holy Spirit produces the fruit of the Spirit inside the believer. And that fruit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." And from out of the overflow of the indwelling Spirit come good deeds.

So we come to Jesus for rest from our work, not to do any more work. And that's what the Sabbath day is a shadow of, coming to Jesus for rest from our own work as Hebrews 4:1-9 tells us.

I also won't argue any more with people who don't feel the fruit of the Spirit inside them and therefore consider their good deeds work. If it takes effort to do good to your neighbor, then the Spirit of God is not in you. So as John says in 1 John 3:9-10:

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is righty is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." So works without love are meaningless and true love only comes from God's love and forgiveness inside. So ask God to give you the Holy Spirit and you'll know what it means to come to Jesus for rest from your own work.

 

[biblecatholic]

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is righty is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." So works without love are meaningless and true love only comes from God's love and forgiveness inside. So ask God to give you the Holy Spirit and you'll know what it means to come to Jesus for rest from your own work.

you bear false witness against catholics, that's a sin

 

[Heidi]

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is righty is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." So works without love are meaningless and true love only comes from God's love and forgiveness inside. So ask God to give you the Holy Spirit and you'll know what it means to come to Jesus for rest from your own work.

you bear false witness against catholics, that's a sin

I said nothing about the Catholics. So it's you who is bearing false witness. But I notice that you thought I was reffering to you. That couldn't be because the catholics are convicted by my post could it? ;-) It sure appears so. ;-) But now that you brought it up, it doesn't appear that the catholics know the difference between the works of the Pharisees and the love that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, do they? ;-)

 

[Drew]

Hello Heidi:

I am interested in your understanding of the following text from Romans 2, especially the portions that have been highlighted. Presumably you have found a way to accomodate the apparent "works are important unto justification / salvation" implications of this material. I would be interested to know how you interpret such material:

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

 

[biblecatholic]

I said nothing about the Catholics. So it's you who is bearing false witness. But I notice that you thought I was reffering to you. That couldn't be because the catholics are convicted by my post could it? ;-) It sure appears so. ;-) But now that you brought it up, it doesn't appear that the catholics know the difference between the works of the Pharisees and the love that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, do they? ;-)

You said I worship the pope and mary.... i.e. False Witness


the only way to be faith saves is when it works trough Love

 

[Heidi]

Hello Heidi:

I am interested in your understanding of the following text from Romans 2, especially the portions that have been highlighted. Presumably you have found a way to accomodate the apparent "works are important unto justification / salvation" implications of this material. I would be interested to know how you interpret such material:

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Again, you ahve to put all scripture together so that your interpretation of scripture doesn't contradict any other scriputre. So put those verses together with 1 Corinthians 2:15 "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things. But he himself is not subject to any man's judgment. For who has known the mind of the Lord to instruct him" But we have the mind of Christ."

And 1 Corinthians 6;2 "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" So put these verses together with the verses you quoted and you get, Do not judge others for what you yourselves do.

So you cannot take scripture out of context which is something that the catholics haven't learned yet.

You also don't know what obeying the law means. It means that since Jesus has fulfilled the law for us, we don't obey the law through our own effort like the Jews did and still do. We come to Jesus who has alreadey fulfilled the law. So once again, you're taking scripture out of context and seeing it like the jews still do. So read Galationas 2-3 and the whole book of Romans so that you don't take verses out of context.

And since Paul tells us that love is the fulfillment of the law, then my OP stands true.

 

[Drew]

Again, you ahve to put all scripture together so that your interpretation of scripture doesn't contradict any other scriputre. So put those verses together with 1 Corinthians 2:15 "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things. But he himself is not subject to any man's judgment. For who has known the mind of the Lord to instruct him" But we have the mind of Christ."

And 1 Corinthians 6;2 "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" So put these verses together with the verses you quoted and you get, Do not judge others for what you yourselves do.

I do not see how 1 Cor 2:15 modifies the way the Romans 2 text should be interpreted such that it loses its "face value", namely that works count unto salvation. How, and I am asking you to be specific, is the 1 Cor text relevant to the Romans 2 text? The Romans 2 text does not talk about man being subject to "man's judgement" - it is clearly about a judgement by God that is based on works. And are you arguing that since we "have the mind of Christ" that we are not to be subject to the judgement described in Romans 2? The material in Romans 2 is directed at the members of the believing church in Rome - both Jews and Gentiles. Even if such believing members "have the mind of Christ", this, in and of itself, is no basis for immunizing such people against the statements in Romans 2. Why would Paul write such material to believers (which is what he is doing) if he believed that it did not apply to them because they are Christians?

Again, I do not see the relevance of 1 Cor 6:2. Romans 2 is not about a judgment by men - it is about a judgement by God.

I do not see that you have made any argument that believers are immune to the implications of Romans 2. Do you believe you have established this? If so, please explain more fully.

 

[Drew]

You also don't know what obeying the law means. It means that since Jesus has fulfilled the law for us, we don't obey the law through our own effort like the Jews did and still do. We come to Jesus who has alreadey fulfilled the law. So once again, you're taking scripture out of context and seeing it like the jews still do. So read Galationas 2-3 and the whole book of Romans so that you don't take verses out of context.

I would ask you to precisely express what you mean when you claim that Jesus fulfilled the law and the related point as to why you think that we do not use own efforts to obey it. In Romans 6:11-13, we have:

"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life"

This text seems to force us to conclude that we indeed have the possibility of sinning even as Christians - after all Paul wrote these words to believers. Why would he instruct us in this manner if we did not need to make an effort to steer clear of sin? These seem like awfully strange words from a man who believes, if I understand you properly, that moral efforts are not required on the part of the believing Christian.

Since I asked you what you mean by the phrase "Jesus has fulfilled the law", I will give you my understanding (influenced by the thoughts of theologian NT Wright):

- the intent of the law was to "give life" to the people of the covenant. However, this intent can never be achieved precisely because the law operates on fallen man - Adamic man.

- Ironically enough, God used the law to "shine a spotlight" on sin - the law reveals sin, it does not solve the sin problem.

- the law focuses sins on those under the law - the Jews. The sins of the entire world are piled up onto the Jews. The law has served the role of gathering sin together in one place - the nation of Israel.

- God, having used the law to "draw sin out" and focus it onto Israel, now demonstrates his great love, by staying his hand against Israel, which, as a result of the action of the law, bears the sin of the entire world (remember, Paul says something like "where there is no law, there is no sin").

- Instead God pours out His wrath on Jesus, who has taken the burden of Israel's sin onto himself. The world's sin was focussed on Israel through the law and then transferred to Christ, where it was dealt with.

- So Jesus has fulfilled the law in the sense that He has borne the punishment for the sin that the law cast its spotlight on. The law shines a light on sin. Jesus takes that sin onto Himself, thus fulfilling God's plan to deal with sin through Israel and her faithful representative, Jesus.

In such a context, I see no justification for arguing that we no longer need to make efforts to obey the law (at least the moral elements of the law, if not the ceremonial elements). You seem to be arguing that Jesus has done away with the law. Is this what you are saying? The law had its purpose in God's redemptive plan. The fact that Jesus bears the sin that the law illuminates does not mean that we are not to still obey the law. God used the law to focus sin on Israel and then on Jesus so that the penalty for sin can be dealt with once and for all.

I see how this frees us from the penalty of breaking the law, I do not see how it frees us from the obligation to obey the law.

 

[francisdesales]

Christianity takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing you from a burning fire.

Oh, brother, ANOTHER OSAS person. We've just been through this and the idea has been THOROUGHLY destroyed by Catholics and Protestants alike. I guess I'll be clipping and pasting from there a lot...

What is sad is that you OSAS people claim to have Jesus as your Lord and Savior and King in your life, and you VERY RARELY consider HIs Words to us. It's all Paul, Paul, Paul, words twisted towards your destruction, as Peter wrote.

If a OSAS person ACTUALLY read the Gospels with a mind to learn what our Lord and Savior taught, rather than ignore His Words, OSAS would blow away with chaff that itches the ears. OSAS is just a sad skeleton of the Good News, wishful thinking that suits the typical American just right, because it requires nothing. This is the mindset of the OSAS crowd:

"Love my neighbor? That isn't directed to me."
"Give me my bus ticket, so I can get on with my life of sin"
"Repent? Why? You're infringing on my freedom."
"Do the will of God? Why? He owes me salvation because of His Son."
"Jesus is my Lord and King. I don't listen to what He says."


Yea, that message echoes through the Bible, doesn't it. What a sad twisting of the Words of God.

 

[Guest]

Christianity takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing you from a burning fire.

Oh, brother, ANOTHER OSAS person. We've just been through this and the idea has been THOROUGHLY destroyed by Catholics and Protestants alike. I guess I'll be clipping and pasting from there a lot...

What is sad is that you OSAS people claim to have Jesus as your Lord and Savior and King in your life, and you VERY RARELY consider HIs Words to us. It's all Paul, Paul, Paul, words twisted towards your destruction, as Peter wrote.

If a OSAS person ACTUALLY read the Gospels with a mind to learn what our Lord and Savior taught, rather than ignore His Words, OSAS would blow away with chaff that itches the ears. OSAS is just a sad skeleton of the Good News, wishful thinking that suits the typical American just right, because it requires nothing. This is the mindset of the OSAS crowd:

"Love my neighbor? That isn't directed to me."
"Give me my bus ticket, so I can get on with my life of sin"
"Repent? Why? You're infringing on my freedom."
"Do the will of God? Why? He owes me salvation because of His Son."
"Jesus is my Lord and King. I don't listen to what He says."


Yea, that message echoes through the Bible, doesn't it. What a sad twisting of the Words of God.

francis - who says these things? And I would appreciate direct QUOTES.

Salvation is a gift unto us from God. We are told that Salvation is a free gift, not that of works lest any man shall boast - but rather we are to boast in the Lord Jesus Christ. Currently, Christ sits down at the right hand of the Father. This is a very important place, and it is very important to understand what it means that He is "sitting down". It means that HIs work is finished. What work is that? Procurring salvation for those whom will believe. As a result of this belief, we are not only saved, but we are kept in His hand.

To say that one can 'lose salvation' is to say that they can never get it back again. Is this what you are claiming? Because, Christ is sitting. No more work to be done. It is a finished sacrifice for the forgiveness of past, preasent, and future sins.

As a result of this belief, and recognizing that we can not obtain our own salvation nor hold on to it ourselves through our own actions - we must submit our lives to the will of the Father. Our salvation is evidenced by the works of faith. Works are an evidence of faith, an evidence of salvation - not a procurement of or a sustaining of.

We have a positional justification in that we are now adopted as God's sons and daughters. As sons and daughters of God we have a practical justification in that we are to be about the Father's business - doing His will.

Just as in an family owned business, there are those within the family that do not want to carry on the work of the father - are they no longer consider sons or daughters? No. However, they do not obtain the same benefits either. Our reward awaits us in Heaven for our work here on Earth. There are those who will be laying many many crowns at the Lord's feet - and there are those who will lay very little - and yet we will all rejoice that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour.

The Christian Life is a Balance of Faith and Works. It is the Faith that allows us to do the Works. Neither one should be out of balance - extremes on both sides are in error.

Francis - if I may suggest your posts would go a long way if they were to follow your sig.

 

[Heidi]

Christianity takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing you from a burning fire.

Oh, brother, ANOTHER OSAS person. We've just been through this and the idea has been THOROUGHLY destroyed by Catholics and Protestants alike. I guess I'll be clipping and pasting from there a lot...

What is sad is that you OSAS people claim to have Jesus as your Lord and Savior and King in your life, and you VERY RARELY consider HIs Words to us. It's all Paul, Paul, Paul, words twisted towards your destruction, as Peter wrote.

If a OSAS person ACTUALLY read the Gospels with a mind to learn what our Lord and Savior taught, rather than ignore His Words, OSAS would blow away with chaff that itches the ears. OSAS is just a sad skeleton of the Good News, wishful thinking that suits the typical American just right, because it requires nothing. This is the mindset of the OSAS crowd:

"Love my neighbor? That isn't directed to me."
"Give me my bus ticket, so I can get on with my life of sin"
"Repent? Why? You're infringing on my freedom."
"Do the will of God? Why? He owes me salvation because of His Son."
"Jesus is my Lord and King. I don't listen to what He says."


Yea, that message echoes through the Bible, doesn't it. What a sad twisting of the Words of God.

So then you're not thankful that Jesus died for you. IS that correct? :o Do you know what the fruit of the Spirit is and why it's from the Spirit and not from man himself? :o Apparently not. Sorry, friend, if it takes effort for you to be thankful and love your brothers, then your love isn't genuine. It's as manufactured as the love of the Pharisees who also tried to clean the cup from the outside instead of having Jesus clean it from the inside.

You also think Jesus is lying when he says "No one can snatch them out of my hand" and in Romans 8:1 and 1 Peter 1:3. Well I don't.

So I just have one question for you: Would you want your spouse to love you out of duty, works, or from her heart? :o If it's the latter, then she wouldn't have to consult a rulebook to show you love. Love is the fulfillment of the law. But Pharisees don't understand that.

 

[Heidi]

Again, you ahve to put all scripture together so that your interpretation of scripture doesn't contradict any other scriputre. So put those verses together with 1 Corinthians 2:15 "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things. But he himself is not subject to any man's judgment. For who has known the mind of the Lord to instruct him" But we have the mind of Christ."

And 1 Corinthians 6;2 "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" So put these verses together with the verses you quoted and you get, Do not judge others for what you yourselves do.

I do not see how 1 Cor 2:15 modifies the way the Romans 2 text should be interpreted such that it loses its "face value", namely that works count unto salvation. How, and I am asking you to be specific, is the 1 Cor text relevant to the Romans 2 text? The Romans 2 text does not talk about man being subject to "man's judgement" - it is clearly about a judgement by God that is based on works. And are you arguing that since we "have the mind of Christ" that we are not to be subject to the judgement described in Romans 2? The material in Romans 2 is directed at the members of the believing church in Rome - both Jews and Gentiles. Even if such believing members "have the mind of Christ", this, in and of itself, is no basis for immunizing such people against the statements in Romans 2. Why would Paul write such material to believers (which is what he is doing) if he believed that it did not apply to them because they are Christians?

Again, I do not see the relevance of 1 Cor 6:2. Romans 2 is not about a judgment by men - it is about a judgement by God.

I do not see that you have made any argument that believers are immune to the implications of Romans 2. Do you believe you have established this? If so, please explain more fully.

Again, you haven't put all scripture together. Put Romans 9:11, Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2;8-9 and Galations 2-3 together with your verses and don't leave them out. Then once you've put those verses together you will see that good deeds are done not to get love from God, but out of love for God.

The best way I can explain is by asking you a question: Would you want people to come over to your house because someone else told them they should? Or would you want them to come over to your house out of love for you? If you can answer that honestly, then you'll know why good deeds don't come from "shoulds" but from love which is why love is the greatest commandment and the fulfillment of the law. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Love seeks to give and to please. Love motivates good deeds. If good deeds aren't done out of love, then they are a clanging cymbol as paul tells us. There is no effort that comes out of a loving heart. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."

 

[Heidi]

You also don't know what obeying the law means. It means that since Jesus has fulfilled the law for us, we don't obey the law through our own effort like the Jews did and still do. We come to Jesus who has alreadey fulfilled the law. So once again, you're taking scripture out of context and seeing it like the jews still do. So read Galationas 2-3 and the whole book of Romans so that you don't take verses out of context.

I would ask you to precisely express what you mean when you claim that Jesus fulfilled the law and the related point as to why you think that we do not use own efforts to obey it. In Romans 6:11-13, we have:

"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life"

This text seems to force us to conclude that we indeed have the possibility of sinning even as Christians - after all Paul wrote these words to believers. Why would he instruct us in this manner if we did not need to make an effort to steer clear of sin? These seem like awfully strange words from a man who believes, if I understand you properly, that moral efforts are not required on the part of the believing Christian.

Since I asked you what you mean by the phrase "Jesus has fulfilled the law", I will give you my understanding (influenced by the thoughts of theologian NT Wright):

- the intent of the law was to "give life" to the people of the covenant. However, this intent can never be achieved precisely because the law operates on fallen man - Adamic man.

- Ironically enough, God used the law to "shine a spotlight" on sin - the law reveals sin, it does not solve the sin problem.

- the law focuses sins on those under the law - the Jews. The sins of the entire world are piled up onto the Jews. The law has served the role of gathering sin together in one place - the nation of Israel.

- God, having used the law to "draw sin out" and focus it onto Israel, now demonstrates his great love, by staying his hand against Israel, which, as a result of the action of the law, bears the sin of the entire world (remember, Paul says something like "where there is no law, there is no sin").

- Instead God pours out His wrath on Jesus, who has taken the burden of Israel's sin onto himself. The world's sin was focussed on Israel through the law and then transferred to Christ, where it was dealt with.

- So Jesus has fulfilled the law in the sense that He has borne the punishment for the sin that the law cast its spotlight on. The law shines a light on sin. Jesus takes that sin onto Himself, thus fulfilling God's plan to deal with sin through Israel and her faithful representative, Jesus.

In such a context, I see no justification for arguing that we no longer need to make efforts to obey the law (at least the moral elements of the law, if not the ceremonial elements). You seem to be arguing that Jesus has done away with the law. Is this what you are saying? The law had its purpose in God's redemptive plan. The fact that Jesus bears the sin that the law illuminates does not mean that we are not to still obey the law. God used the law to focus sin on Israel and then on Jesus so that the penalty for sin can be dealt with once and for all.

I see how this frees us from the penalty of breaking the law, I do not see how it frees us from the obligation to obey the law.

Ephesians 2;8-9 says it all:

"For it is by Grace you have been saved (notice the past tense) through faith-and this, not from yourselves-it is the gift from God not by works so that no one can boast."

It's all in there. Every single thing concerning salvation. Everything. If you beleve it, you've been saved. If you don't you haven't been. End of story.

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation is a gift unto us from God. We are told that Salvation is a free gift, not that of works lest any man shall boast - but rather we are to boast in the Lord Jesus Christ. Currently, Christ sits down at the right hand of the Father. This is a very important place, and it is very important to understand what it means that He is "sitting down". It means that HIs work is finished. What work is that? Procurring salvation for those whom will believe. As a result of this belief, we are not only saved, but we are kept in His hand.

"Sitting down" is a position of honor meant to show Christ's glory, not a posture meant to be taken literally. And what is your definition of a "work"?

If the Lord's work is done, why does He CONTINUE to intercede to the Father?
If the Lord has died for the sin of ALL men, why do some men NOT go to heaven?
If the Lord's work was done, why did He establish a Church, or grant that the Holy Spirit would teach them MORE things, or that He gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins?

Jesus work on Calvary is done. But He is not "done" working, nor is the Father. He does what the Father does, and the Father CONTINUES to call all men to Himself.

To say that one can 'lose salvation' is to say that they can never get it back again.

Why?

As a result of this belief, and recognizing that we can not obtain our own salvation nor hold on to it ourselves through our own actions - we must submit our lives to the will of the Father. Our salvation is evidenced by the works of faith. Works are an evidence of faith, an evidence of salvation - not a procurement of or a sustaining of.

Nothing is of consequence but faith working in love. You can have all of the faith to move mountains, but without love, you are nothing. Paul's words. Faith without works is dead. James words. Jesus says the same things, as well. We are judged based on our good deeds in Christ, not on faith alone.

We have a positional justification in that we are now adopted as God's sons and daughters.

Where exactly is that concept in Scriptures? What is "positional justification"?

Just as in an family owned business, there are those within the family that do not want to carry on the work of the father - are they no longer consider sons or daughters? No.

No. They are disinherited from what they were freely offered to receive, such as Esau. Or those whom Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 6:9-10. He tells us that certain actions will make us LOSE our inheritance. No, we cannot gain salvation, but we can certainly throw it away.

Our reward awaits us in Heaven for our work here on Earth. There are those who will be laying many many crowns at the Lord's feet - and there are those who will lay very little - and yet we will all rejoice that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour.

And there will be those whom our Lord tells "I never knew you, depart from me". There will be a gnashing of teeth from many OSAS people who thought they were saved and didn't do any good works...

The Christian Life is a Balance of Faith and Works. It is the Faith that allows us to do the Works. Neither one should be out of balance - extremes on both sides are in error.

It is NOT our "faith" that allows us to do works! It is Christ's abiding presence, Who brings BOTH faith AND works. Faith is not a conveyor belt that puts out works. We ALWAYS have free will to choose NOT to do something good. We can have faith to move mountains, but without love, we are nothing. This tells us that love does NOT always comes forth from even a huge amount of faith...

Francis - if I may suggest your posts would go a long way if they were to follow your sig.

I have done my best to respond to your attacks on Catholicism. If I have been unsuccessful, than I apologize, I should not stoop to such levels. However, I am a work in progress.

NOTE... I have edited this post because I inadvertently thought that I was responding to Heidi. Sorry, ALoneVoice.

Regards

 

[unred typo]

I guess you lost this one and answered it here. I'll repost it here for you:

quote by Heidi

Christianity takes about as much work and effort as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. That is no effort at all, jsut love and tgratitude. So you need to listen to Jesus when he says; "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."If our hearts are cleaned on the inside, the outside will become clean as well as Jesus tells us.

I believe what Jesus says. We just have a different idea about what he meant when he said it. He wants you to clean your heart of bad attitudes and hatred. When your heart is full of sin that you don’t want to give up, you’re going to speak around sin and not address it as sin.

quote by Heidi And then you'll know why thanking God and giving back what he gave is is no work at all. But if our hearts haven't been washed by the Holy Spirit on the inside, then yes indeed, people will do as much work as the Pharisees did and never get anywhere. So read Hebrews 4:1-9 to see what coming to Jesus for rest from our own works means.

Thanking God is not work. Giving back what he gave will cost you your life, either in reality or figuratively speaking by living your life in perfect submission to his Lordship. His yoke is easy and his burden is light however. It is sin that takes a heavy toll on us in the end. You want to look at Hebrews 4? Check out 8-9:

Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.
Maybe you can tell us when this rest is going to be for the people of God? And if the day of rest is not yet, when are they to work? And who is this referring to?

As for the Pharisees, they were not condemned for their good deeds, Heidi. They were condemned because they were mean, hateful, prideful, nasty scoundrels who stole widows houses, practiced extortion on worshippers of God, demanded the best honors for themselves, killed and persecuted the just and later put people to death for being Christians. They were not trying to follow God, they only wanted to appear to follow God. Jesus called them hypocrites.

quote by Heidi
And until you understand that, then further conversation between us will be a waste of time because you listen to people like Francis instead of the word of God alone.
Yours in Christ,
Heidi

(Oh oh…looks like Heidi is setting us up for her departure from the boards... ) Francis and I agree on many issues. He doesn’t tell me what to think, nor do I think for him. I have learned many things about Catholicism from his posts and have a better understanding of why they do certain things. Some I agree would be nice and quite harmless, others, I still don’t think are. You don’t listen to the word of God alone, either. You have a pile of man made doctrines that you don’t even realize are not backed up by scripture. Which is truly sad considering the hundreds of posts you write.

 

[francisdesales]

"For it is by Grace you have been saved (notice the past tense) through faith-and this, not from yourselves-it is the gift from God not by works so that no one can boast."

It's all in there. Every single thing concerning salvation. Everything. If you beleve it, you've been saved. If you don't you haven't been. End of story.

You forgot to read the next verse, sister...

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

That is no work at all. Once Jesus cleans our cup from the inside through washing us with His Holy Spirit, then the outside will reflect a cleaned heart. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."

In fact if it was that easy everyone would be a "Christian". Rather it does take the effort of taking up your cross daily to crucify the flesh (a profession to be a living martyr/sacrifice unto God), not by our own power but God's. Thus is a battle between the flesh and Spirit, and the flesh overcomes the Christian sometimes and they stumble. But the "work" we must preform is simply this: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13). This speaks of a constant walk with the Holy Spirit, a process of putting to death the deeds done in the flesh, and bringing all your actions and thoughts into subjection to God. Do you deny this?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

So then you're not thankful that Jesus died for you. IS that correct? :o

How on earth did you come up with that? What did I say to place that thought in your mind?

Do you know what the fruit of the Spirit is and why it's from the Spirit and not from man himself? :o Apparently not. Sorry, friend, if it takes effort for you to be thankful and love your brothers, then your love isn't genuine. It's as manufactured as the love of the Pharisees who also tried to clean the cup from the outside instead of having Jesus clean it from the inside.

Not sure I totally agree, because love takes sacrifice, a dying to oneself. Anyone who thinks dying to oneself is easy and doesn't take any effort is clueless on the whole idea. It is NOT easy to love our enemies, no matter what rhetoric you put forth. I am speaking practically. You claim to have the Spirit within you. Do you agree with what I am saying? Even with the Spirit, these things are not easy.

You also think Jesus is lying when he says "No one can snatch them out of my hand" and in Romans 8:1 and 1 Peter 1:3. Well I don't.

FIRST of all, Jesus didn't say those things... Paul and Peter wrote them.

Secondly, no one can snatch us out of His hands. But NOWHERE does the Bible say WE cannot remove ourselves from His hands... We CAN grieve the Holy Spirit and return to the vomit of our former lives. We CAN disinherit ourselves from the freely-given gift of salvation.

So I just have one question for you: Would you want your spouse to love you out of duty, works, or from her heart? :o If it's the latter, then she wouldn't have to consult a rulebook to show you love. Love is the fulfillment of the law. But Pharisees don't understand that.

That is true, but love is not necessarily easy or effortless...

Regards

 

[Guest]

Fracis - I would like to respond to your posts - however, I must sincerly ask that you re-read my posts with a different mindset. Honestly, I believe you suffer from a "martyr" complex in that you believe every post that disagrees with Catholicism is an "attack" again Rome and you personally.

You will talk as if OSAS is of the devil, but cry foul when anyone were to suggest the same of Catholic dogma. Might I suggest there will be Catholics experienceing the gnashing of teeth as well. In fact, we will be surprised who IS in Heaven and who ISN'T in Heaven.

However, I want to point on one part of your response to mine to illustrate my frustrations with you:

ALoneVoice wrote:

The Christian Life is a Balance of Faith and Works. It is the Faith that allows us to do the Works. Neither one should be out of balance - extremes on both sides are in error.

[quote:613b9]Francisdesakes wrote:
It is NOT our "faith" that allows us to do works! It is Christ's abiding presence, Who brings BOTH faith AND works. Faith is not a conveyor belt that puts out works. We ALWAYS have free will to choose NOT to do something good. We can have faith to move mountains, but without love, we are nothing. This tells us that love does NOT always comes forth from even a huge amount of faith...

[/quote:613b9]

From my quote, where did I say "our faith"?

 

[Heidi]

So then you're not thankful that Jesus died for you. IS that correct? :o

How on earth did you come up with that? What did I say to place that thought in your mind?

Do you know what the fruit of the Spirit is and why it's from the Spirit and not from man himself? :o Apparently not. Sorry, friend, if it takes effort for you to be thankful and love your brothers, then your love isn't genuine. It's as manufactured as the love of the Pharisees who also tried to clean the cup from the outside instead of having Jesus clean it from the inside.

Not sure I totally agree, because love takes sacrifice, a dying to oneself. Anyone who thinks dying to oneself is easy and doesn't take any effort is clueless on the whole idea. It is NOT easy to love our enemies, no matter what rhetoric you put forth. I am speaking practically. You claim to have the Spirit within you. Do you agree with what I am saying? Even with the Spirit, these things are not easy.

You also think Jesus is lying when he says "No one can snatch them out of my hand" and in Romans 8:1 and 1 Peter 1:3. Well I don't.

FIRST of all, Jesus didn't say those things... Paul and Peter wrote them.

Secondly, no one can snatch us out of His hands. But NOWHERE does the Bible say WE cannot remove ourselves from His hands... We CAN grieve the Holy Spirit and return to the vomit of our former lives. We CAN disinherit ourselves from the freely-given gift of salvation.

So I just have one question for you: Would you want your spouse to love you out of duty, works, or from her heart? :o If it's the latter, then she wouldn't have to consult a rulebook to show you love. Love is the fulfillment of the law. But Pharisees don't understand that.

That is true, but love is not necessarily easy or effortless...

Regards

Oh. Well whatever good I do comes because I love to do so because I love my neighbor and want to help him. I'm sorry that others see it as so laborious. I have to wonder though, what's lurking in their hearts underneath their claims of being a good Christian.