Christians don't reign today, but only serve

[RBDERRICK]

Hebrews 12: 22-29 says he is reigning from heaven right now.

Exactly. And also reigning in the hearts of them that love and obey Him. Who have repenting of their reigning on earth for Jesus' sake.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

When He comes a second time to the earth, He and His resurrected saints will reign with His kingdom over all people and nations of the earth. No transgressor nor unjust ruler will go unpunished without immediate execution of the law of the King from Jersualem.

This is the promised hope of the righteous since Cain slew Abel, and only the unrighteous despise it, or the unfaithful grow weary of waiting with patience as commanded.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

The scoffers are professed believers. The promise is of His second coming. The complaint is of His delay, because all things remain the same today upon the earth, as before the Lord's first coming in the flesh: There are still unjust men reigning upon the earth.

Anyone who thinks the prophesied promise of the Lord Himself coming to inherit all nations and rule over all the earth, is already established with transgressors and unjust rulers defying Him openly, is believing in the unjust god of this world, more than the true God and Jesus Christ.

Or, they're just more empty spiritualists and utopian idealists, that have departed from earthly sense.

Many of them are also unconditional salvation believers, who in like manner separate their 'heavenly' spirituality from their earthly living. They make up a present reign of the Lord from heaven with themselves, just to then say they therefore cannot be hurt by the second death judgement of their works.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

While the feign honor of the Lord's reigning with their lips, their hearts are seeking to justify still walking after their own lusts upon earth.

Many times it helps to know the personal motivation and doctrinal agenda of people, when they start teaching things that are way up in the air, without standing on any soild ground.

"So heavenly minded, no earthly good" certainly applies to Christains vaunting themselves as the Lord's reigning rulers over this present earth, while it remains lying in wickedeness, and even more now than when Cain slew righteous Abel.

It's called put up or shut up by normal responsible adults.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Oh please, He's was far above puny Pilate before He left the tomb.

His body was in the grave, and His soul was in hell before He left the time.

I don't mind this post-debate stuff, so long as you keep coming up with new stuff to correct. It all goes into the hopper for later use.

Jesus is God.

True.

 

[journeyman]

His body was in the grave, and His soul was in hell before He left the time.
I don't mind this post-debate stuff, so long as you keep coming up with new stuff to correct. It all goes into the hopper for later use.

It's only our perception of Him that changes. He remains the same.

True.

Yes. Start with that perception.

Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. Psa.102.25-27 KJV

He's prophesying of Jesus (Heb.1:10-12.)

 

[Iconoclast]

The reigning of God in heaven over all His creation never ended. The Father was still reigning from heaven, while the Son laid down His reign to live on earth.

He made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me. And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?
And now the Father and resurrected Son are once again reigning over all things now and forever. And in the time of the Father's choosing, the Son will come again with power for all to see, and be made subject to over all the earth.

True. A thousand years is a thousand years is a...

Sometimes God does accomadate the unbelievers' demands to make Himself perfectly clear, and so enures there is no possible way to mistake what He is saying.

And of course, such unbelievers won't anyway. God always has a sure record to condemn unbelief in what He says.


Not in Revelation, but in older prophecies of His coming reign upon earth.

O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

These prophecies are not yet fulfilled, because Jesus did none of these things upon earth, when He first came to the earth.

In like manner, not all prophecies of the Lord coming to earth, said He would come in the flesh.

God does not need to provide His whole prophecy nor doctrine in every place of Scripture, that He speaks of it.

The Lord's one whole doctrine and prophecy from the Bible, is found in part throughout the Bible. It's called

Preaching the whole gospel of God, includes preaching all parts of His doctrine from all Scripture, and not just from one single place to the exclusion of others.

Ex:

People turn to Eph 2 to the exclusion of James 2, in order to preach the being saved by grace through faith alone without works, and set apart from what they are doing at the time.

So it is with people who isolate Revelation from the rest of the prophecies of the Bible, in order to say the Lord will never reign with His resurrected saints upon the earth.

We are told in hebrews it is the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem. It is now

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly. And also reigning in the hearts of them that love and obey Him. Who have repenting of their reigning on earth for Jesus' sake.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

When He comes a second time to the earth, He and His resurrected saints will reign with His kingdom over all people and nations of the earth. No transgressor nor unjust ruler will go unpunished without immediate execution of the law of the King from Jersualem.

This is the promised hope of the righteous since Cain slew Abel, and only the unrighteous despise it, or the unfaithful grow weary of waiting with patience as commanded.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

The scoffers are professed believers. The promise is of His second coming. The complaint is of His delay, because all things remain the same today upon the earth, as before the Lord's first coming in the flesh: There are still unjust men reigning upon the earth.

Anyone who thinks the prophesied promise of the Lord Himself coming to inherit all nations and rule over all the earth, is already established with transgressors and unjust rulers defying Him openly, is believing in the unjust god of this world, more than the true God and Jesus Christ.

Or, they're just more empty spiritualists and utopian idealists, that have departed from earthly sense.

Many of them are also unconditional salvation believers, who in like manner separate their 'heavenly' spirituality from their earthly living. They make up a present reign of the Lord from heaven with themselves, just to then say they therefore cannot be hurt by the second death judgement of their works.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

While the feign honor of the Lord's reigning with their lips, their hearts are seeking to justify still walking after their own lusts upon earth.

Many times it helps to know the personal motivation and doctrinal agenda of people, when they start teaching things that are way up in the air, without standing on any soild ground.

"So heavenly minded, no earthly good" certainly applies to Christains vaunting themselves as the Lord's reigning rulers over this present earth, while it remains lying in wickedeness, and even more now than when Cain slew righteous Abel.

It's called put up or shut up by normal responsible adults.

Hebrews 12 is quite clear

 

[RBDERRICK]

We live in a sin cursed earth and as believers we are not immune to suffering, and tribulation. That being said the gospel of the Kingdom is being preached worldwide. It overtakes sinners And brings new life.

Sin filled world of iniquity made by sinners.

An earth that must now be worked with sweat to produce.

The rocks and dirt have nothing to do with tempting man to sin, neither does flesh and blood.

Man is a spiritual being created in God's image, who can only be tempted by his own lust willingly produced in his own heart.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It's only our perception of Him that changes. He remains the same.

If your 'perception' of Jesus changes, then your belief in Him has no truth.

And it's only your perception of reigning with Him that is fraudulant.

His Millenium remains prophesied the same, and will be the same as prophesied.

 

[RBDERRICK]

We are told in hebrews it is the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem. It is now

The heavenly Sion and New Jerusalem is in heaven now, not on earth. The Lord God of Israel reigns once again from heaven, with His ressurected body as the man Christ Jesus.

The resurrected Lord's thousand year rule upon the earth will be from Zion and Jersualem, that no is on earth.

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
The Lord has not come again to smite, inherit, and rule the nations of all men by possession.

The mystical 'reigning' of Christian believers today is just another psdeudo-spritiual fraud, and a confession of not being subject to the reign of Christ, as the only Head of His own body.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[journeyman]

If your 'perception' of Jesus changes, then your belief in Him has no truth.

When people are unbelievers but then become believers their perception of Jesus had to change.

And it's only your perception of reigning with Him that is fraudulant.

We'll see come judgement day.

His Millenium remains prophesied the same, and will be the same as prophesied.

Behold, I come as a thief. Rev.16:15
as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat...the heavens being on fire
2Pet.3:10,12

 

[RBDERRICK]

Hebrews 12 is quite clear

True. To believers who take God at His words, and don't change them to insert their own 'reigning' from heaven over all the earth today.

And so His Romans 12 quite clear:

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Such high-minded people are reigning over a kingdom of one, themselves without the Lord, who only reigns over His own people, that have repented of reigning over themselves on earth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

When people are unbelievers but then become believers their perception of Jesus had to change.

There is no 'perception' of Jesus in the Bible. But only faith in His words and obedience to His will.

Beleivers with lips only, change His words to continue doing their own will.

They are the disobedient bleievers, that declare they continue sinning against the Lord by their own will.

Whosoever abiding in him is not sinning: whosoever is sinning hath not seen him, neither known him.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that is doing the will of my Father which is in heaven.

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that is doing the will of God is abiding for ever.

 

[Iconoclast]

True. To believers who take God at His words, and don't change them to insert their own 'reigning' from heaven over all the earth today.

And so His Romans 12 quite clear:

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Such high-minded people are reigning over a kingdom of one, themselves without the Lord, who only reigns over His own people, that have repented of reigning over themselves on earth.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
He speaks from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem... I do not turn away,do you?
28 Wherefore "we receiving a kingdom "
which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

I serve in this Kingdom that has been received.

 

[journeyman]

There is no 'perception' of Jesus in the Bible.

The rabbis' in 1st century Israel taught that when the Messiah came, he would 1) destroy their earthly enemies and then 2) gentiles would live in servitude to Israel while 3) the son of David taught everyone about God bringing 4) peace to the whole world.

Not one of those concepts is true, yet they have been adopted by and are widely taught in "denominational christianity" as pertaining to Christians, but much later, not now.

Not now, because Jesus didn't defeat our earthly enemies? The exact same errors the Jewish people fell into has befallen us. Peter knew it,

there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 2Pet.3:3-4

Gods' promise of the coming Messiah since the Patriarchs died?

In other words, false teachers will say, "the Messiah hasn't come."

False teachers will say Jesus hasn't come because He didn't defeat our enemies or bring peace or give His authority over evil. They don't believe they speak on behalf of the King of heaven and earth.
False teachers can't wait to hit their servants with iron rods.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I serve in this Kingdom that has been received.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Saints of God in Christ Jesus have in deed and in truth recieved His kingdom within us. His kingdom is not now recieved by all men, nor do they live under the rule of the King.

One day at His return, His kingdom will be recieved by all nations with a shepherd's rod of iron. There will be no choices other than to obey or not.

 

[Iconoclast]

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Saints of God in Christ Jesus have in deed and in truth recieved His kingdom within us. His kingdom is not now recieved by all men, nor do they live under the rule of the King.

One day at His return, His kingdom will be recieved by all nations with a shepherd's rod of iron. There will be no choices other than to obey or not.

Before the cross as Jesus was in their midst the Kingdom was in their midst. Those regenerate believers were those who were chosen to spread the kingdom gospel, after Pentecost.
The Kingdom is not received by all men; Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies.
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

lk19:
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
He is ruling right now with a rod of Iron rule.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The rabbis' in 1st century Israel taught that when the Messiah came, he would 1) destroy their earthly enemies and then 2) gentiles would live in servitude to Israel while 3) the son of David taught everyone about God bringing 4) peace to the whole world.

Not one of those concepts is true,

Not for His first coming, which is why they rejected Him, and still look for another coming in his own name to do their will.

Many such false messiahs have come in grand proclamation and gone toi the grave and hell.

yet they have been adopted by and are widely taught in "denominational christianity" as pertaining to Christians, but much later, not now.

Not the same as the carnal Jews. He will come again only to destroy His carnal enemies, whether Jew or Gentile.

The sheep of His kingdom will be both Jew and Gentile, with neither serving the other, but only the resurrected Lord King Jesus Christ.

The Gentiles will seek out Jews to lead them by the skirt to the Lord, to see and hear Him in Person out of Jerusalem.

And so, we see how the unbelieving Jews' messianic reign, as you describe it, will never come to pass on earth.

Not now, because Jesus didn't defeat our earthly enemies?

No, because He hasn't come again to do so against His carnal enemies. (See above)

In other words, false teachers will say, "the Messiah hasn't come."

True. Believers in all prophecy of the Bible say He hasn't come again. Which is self-evident by not being seen as lightning flash, with His armies of angels and all resurrected saints.

False teachers will say Jesus hasn't come because He didn't defeat our enemies or bring peace or give His authority over evil.

True. The unbelieving Jews in their Jews religion today. They still say the promised Messiah of the Bible has not come, though many have said their own messiah has come. And then gone to the grave and hell.

The last great false christ will come to decieve both Jews and Gentiles alike, before the Lord comes again in resurrected body, as promised by prophecy of the apostles.

You can try to mix the argument into a rejection of Jesus' first coming, but it's just more child-play.

Although, it certainly is another new twisting by anti-millenialists, that I have not seen yet. So, thanks. I'll add it to the list...

False teachers can't wait to hit their servants with iron rods.

They already are and have been since Cain slew righteous Abel.

That will end with the Lord's return. Only the righteous will wield the rod, and not in vain for the good of the innocent.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Before the cross as Jesus was in their midst the Kingdom was in their midst.

True. Still the same today.

Mat 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Those regenerate believers were those who were chosen to spread the kingdom gospel, after Pentecost.

JW's do, but not regenerate saints in Christ Jesus.

We preach the gospel of the cross.

The Kingdom is not received by all men;

True.

Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies.

Jesus is not in the midst of His enemies on earth, but only in the midst of His servants and friends.

Universalism is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

He is ruling right now with a rod of Iron rule.

Only in the midst of people's own vain imaginations.

There still be plenty of unjust rulers on earth, doing evil to the innocent.

Your rod of iron opposes the Lord's.

As I said, you can keep the new stuff coming. I have plenty of room in my word file for more.

 

[Iconoclast]

Let;s see why you get it so wrong, my friend

JW's do, but not regenerate saints in Christ Jesus.

You are suggesting regenerate saints do not preach the gospel of the Kingdom, and yet we see that is exactly what Jesus and the Apostles did preach.

We preach the gospel of the cross.

The cross is not apart from the King, and His Kingdom.
Acts14;21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus is not in the midst of His enemies on earth, but only in the midst of His servants and friends.

Psalm 110 which is quoted or alluded to 6x says He rules in the midst of His enemies. You are wrong saying He is not ruling.

Universalism is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I believe the biblical teaching of Particular redemption. I have not said anything about universalism, so your theory fails, and that you mention universalism suggests confusion on your part.

Only in the midst of people's own vain imaginations.

Your poor attempts at sarcasm betray the fact that you have drifted from true teaching.

There still be plenty of unjust rulers on earth, doing evil to the innocent.

Your rod of iron opposes the Lord's.

Your theory here is quite foolish. It will not happen as you suggest.

As I said, you can keep the new stuff coming. I have plenty of room in my word file for more.

lol

 

[journeyman]

Not for His first coming, which is why they rejected Him, and still look for another coming in his own name to do their will.

They thought the Messiah would kill their human enemies. Then the Messiah and the Jewish people would teach the gentiles.
But the Messiah and the Jewish people (Apostles and other Jewish believers) have already taught every civilized nation on earth
about Him.

Not the same as the carnal Jews. He will come again only to destroy His carnal enemies, whether Jew or Gentile.

After the bodily resurrection of believers, death is destroyed. There is no 1000 years long period after this because there are no more enemies.

The sheep of His kingdom will be both Jew and Gentile, with neither serving the other, but only the resurrected Lord King Jesus Christ.

Serving as a "servant of man", no. Serving as a "servant of the of King", yes.
As the King did,

Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Jn.13:13-14 KJV

He served them by correcting them. As the Teacher serves His students, but is not beneath them.

You seem to think the meek and humble Messiah was beneath anyone. You got it upside down.

 

[Iconoclast]

Those regenerate believers were those who were chosen to spread the kingdom gospel, after Pentecost.

RBDerrick said
JW's do, but not regenerate saints in Christ Jesus.

Yet we read this at the end of Acts;
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.